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Thread: Why some people believe that Alexander the Great was not Greek when ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by xzit View Post
    There is no way a sample that South of the Balkans is gonna plot with North Italians. Nothing extra in Albanians has been introduced in the Balkans since like the Bronze Age that had any large genetic impact. And almost nothing in Greeks except for Pontic maybe.


    Republic of Macedonia for the most part was inhabited by Ilyrians and Thracians and not Ancient Macedonians. Though the Macedonians were probably hybrids of Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians they seem to of become Greeks by the time of Alexander.

    Ancient Balkan samples found close to or within Albanian and Greek lands do plot with Albanians and Greeks. Macedonian Slavs have extra Slavic ancestry. Their genetics vary a lot depending on the individual. Macedonians that are the least Slavic influenced basically more or less cluster next to a lot of Albanians and Greeks. Same thing for Bulgarians and even a lot of Romanians. The non-Slavic influenced ones are basically genetically like Albanians, Greeks etc.

    in terms of clustering, Alexander most certainly would plot with Greeks or some Albanians. given also the geographic area. You seem to totally neglect the geographic area or where these samples are found.

    It's only in Croatia those samples plotted with North Italians. Almost Every other sample or area of the Balkans seem to of been basically like Albanian and Greek or East of Tuscans/North Italians. To understand this you can also just look at Serbian genetics where they get a lot of Greek rather than North Italian.


    There are no Thracian samples that have ever been found that clustered with North Italians. Most of the Thracian samples found clustered where some Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs and Romanians clustered,. Though Bulgarians , Macedonian Slavs and Romanians are also on average more Slavic than both Albanians and Greeks.

    Those Ilyrian samples were found in Croatia. Of course they aren't going to cluster with Croatians , Serbs or Bosniaks who are like partially Slavic atleast. Nor are they gonna cluster fully with Albanians since they are geographically more North. It's like expecting South Italians to cluster with North Italians. Other Ilyrian samples found closer to Albanian lands do cluster with Albanians etc.

    Those samples found in Croatia aren't going to cluster with Albanians because they are geographically more North. Same way many Albanian people don't cluster with each other. There is a difference in clustering among every population depending on the size of the geographic area they inhabit, it isn't an argument to put forth that these people were different populations once upon a time which you people seem to do.

    Those samples found in Croatia and Albanians are just part of a bigger Illyrian cluster that has eventually gone extinct. You people take this clustering way too serious.

    Despite those North Ilyrian samples clustering with North Italians and Iberians they literally have nothing to do with those people. They share a common origin with Albanians paternally (J2b2-L283 and R1b-By611) and they spoke a similar language to Albanian or Proto-Albanian. They also share a common autosomal origin anyway. They are basically like North Western shifted Ghegs.

    You can see this by many of the pre-slavic toponyms of the Western Balkans connected to the Albanian language as also suggested by scholars like Johan Georgh von Hahn. For example the word Dalmatia where the J2b2-L283 was found , an YDNA very common in North Albanian people:


    '' The name Dalmatae appears to be a cognate of the modern Albanian word delme, meaning "sheep".The Illyrian town of Delminium probably shares this etymology.

    ''The name Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae tribe, which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning "sheep".''






    Considering the J2b2-l283 that was found in Dalmatia shows that the man who suggested this connection was actually right ^


    This is because the Illyrians most likely spoke a common language. The difference in clustering is only natural and isn't an argument to claim they are different populations.

    You could have South Albanians clustering with Greeks instead of North Albanians yet they literally have nothing to do with Greeks or look like Greeks. They are actually closer to North Albos, linguistically and even phenotypically, still. A half Norwegian, Half Romanian clustering with Austrians doesn't mean that person is Austrian.

    But of course I noticed this fetish among non-Balkanites to claim ancient Balkan people and I also noticed some agenda among South-Slavs to pretend as if Paleo-Balkan people were all different so they can distance themselves from Albanians as much as possible due to their chauvunistic complexes.


    Except for some Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians there is no reason for ancient Balkan samples to be like Serbs or Bosniaks or Croats due to the later Slavic influx. So not sure where you got the idea that ancient Balkan samples aren't like modern Balkanites which they basically are when you compare them to non-Slavic Balkanites depending on their location in the Balkans. They just aren't like Slavic Balkanites who are genetically Slavic also.

    But they are like modern non-Slavic Balkanites for sure. One way or the other, if not always through clustering it is through language, Y-DNA and culture. And even when they don't cluster they still show a genetic overlap. But this has been cut off or gone extinct due to the large Slavic influx that occurred later on.

    By using the logic in clustering that you use, you might as well claim modern Albanian people aren't the same since they cluster so different or even modern Germans or any populations. Clustering literally means nothing in a lot of cases.Of course there is gonna be a difference in clustering especially between people that inhabit or inhabited a larger geographic area

    Paleo-Balkan people clustered east of Italians like many still do (Albanians, Greeks, Romanians etc) In some areas there seem to of been an overlap where Italians fall into the Balkan cluster and some Illyrians / Thracians fall into the Italian/Iberian cluster basically.





    Seems also an agenda among some of you Italian users here to actually suggested that Balkan Slavs are native to the Balkans which they aren't as they also show high IBD sharing with East Europeans basically going by even peer reviewed studies. They are like at least partially Slavic but the results vary from individual to individual. A lot of their paternal ancestry are also connected to Slavs.
    Seems like you haven't been here for very long. Nobody with any active brain cells doubts that there was Slavic genetic influence in the Balkans. Nor does anyone who has read the scientific papers doubt that there is still a large influence from the people of "Old Europe" or that the people of the Balkans are very similar to one another.




    Stop posting revisionist a-scientific nonsense or you won't be here long.


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    Alexander the Great was Greek, him being Illyrian is a dumb suggestion. There is more evidence that Achilles wasn’t Greek.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Alexander the Great was a Greek, but when he conquered Paeonia the people spoke there an Illyrian language, they lost a lot of their land to Macedonians, the Macedonian empire conquered them, while the Illyrian tribe known as the Paeonians fought against it. True Alexander may have had Illyrian and Thracian soldiers in his army, but the Ottoman Empire had Albanians soldiers, does that make the Ottoman Empire Albanian? No.


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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I was not able to understand how this relates to the topic.


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    According to the page of Wiki posted by this Greek member:
    The Pella curse tablet is a text written in a distinct Doric Greek idiom, found in Pella, the ancient capital of Macedon, in 1986.[1]....
    ...
    These suggest that a Doric Greek dialect was spoken in Macedonia, as was previously proposed based on the West Greek forms of names found in Macedonia.
    Even a biased source like Wiki admit that these suggest.
    The Pella tablet prove only that the text was written in Greek. People can rise different theories, but are simply theories. Pella tablet can not prove the ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians. You are using english language in this forum. Are you an English or an American, etc?
    The official language of the European Union is the English language and every year the administration of this Union produce millions of documents written in English language. Is European Union a British Empire? And there is too much talking about the BREXIT in these days.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    According to the page of Wiki posted by this Greek member:

    Even a biased source like Wiki admit that these suggest.
    The Pella tablet prove only that the text was written in Greek. People can rise different theories, but are simply theories. Pella tablet can not prove the ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians. You are using english language in this forum. Are you an English or an American, etc?
    The official language of the European Union is the English language and every year the administration of this Union produce millions of documents written in English language. Is European Union a British Empire? And there is too much talking about the BREXIT in these days.
    Good point


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    Why some people believe that Alexander the Great was not Greek when ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    According to the page of Wiki posted by this Greek member:

    Even a biased source like Wiki admit that these suggest.
    The Pella tablet prove only that the text was written in Greek. People can rise different theories, but are simply theories. Pella tablet can not prove the ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians. You are using english language in this forum. Are you an English or an American, etc?
    The official language of the European Union is the English language and every year the administration of this Union produce millions of documents written in English language. Is European Union a British Empire? And there is too much talking about the BREXIT in these days.
    Yes but Alexander himself declared himself a Greek. I believe Achilles wasn’t Greek, Achilles would curse Greeks he would pray to Zeus to help the Trojans against Greeks. but Alexander the Great was Greek.


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    Last edited by valentinavalley2; 20-09-19 at 17:02.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    For goodness' sakes, for most of linguistics, the evidence can only "suggest" conclusions. NO ONE WAS AROUND TO HEAR THEM.

    This is all just special pleading to find any technicality to "SUGGEST" Alexander wasn't Greek.

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    Why some people believe that Alexander the Great was not Greek when ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For goodness' sakes, for most of linguistics, the evidence can only "suggest" conclusions. NO ONE WAS AROUND TO HEAR THEM.

    This is all just special pleading to find any technicality to "SUGGEST" Alexander wasn't Greek.
    There is no evidence to say he wasn’t Greek, apart from rumours about his mum being half barbaric, and him having non Greeks in his army along with Greeks, but that’s not very uncommon in armies.

    He was Greek, if any of the “Greek” heroes turn out not to be Greek it would probably most likely be Achilles and not Alexander the Great any smart Albanian who’s studied Alexander the Great knows he was Greek and not Illyrian, unless his mother really was half Illyrian, that still makes him a Greek with Illyrian ancestry, it doesn’t take away his Greek origins.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There is a lot of tendency among the Albanians and "Northern Macedonians" to diminish everything Greek and to claim Greek accomplishments as their own. For God's sake, St Jerome is claimed by at least 4 nationalities and he was a Roman.

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    Why some people believe that Alexander the Great was not Greek when ...

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There is a lot of tendency among the Albanians and "Northern Macedonians" to diminish everything Greek and to claim Greek accomplishments as their own. For God's sake, St Jerome is claimed by at least 4 nationalities and he was a Roman.
    Albanians don’t claim to be Greek, or Macedonians rather Albanians claim Paeonians who were an Illyrian Tribe. We also claim there are theories Alexander’s mother was half barbaric but she was also Greek from her dads side. We also claim that Troy wasn’t between Greeks but also others such as the Pelasgians, Illyrians and Thracians, of course Illyrians sided with Trojans, and Trojans are said to have visited Apollonia, in illyria.

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    What's the genetic distance of Albanians to ancient samples from that area, i.e. from mytrueancestry.com

    I'm at 10.28 to the "Illyrian/Dalmatian" sample, but there are northern Italians who are closer.

    Ancient dna might indicate a more complicated story.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What's the genetic distance of Albanians to ancient samples from that area, i.e. from mytrueancestry.com

    I'm at 10.28 to the "Illyrian/Dalmatian" sample, but there are northern Italians who are closer.

    Ancient dna might indicate a more complicated story.
    10.28 is pretty far away but on the other hand it's to an ancient sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    Albanians don’t claim to be Greek, or Macedonians rather Albanians claim Paeonians who were an Illyrian Tribe. We also claim there are theories Alexander’s mother was half barbaric but she was also Greek from her dads side. We also claim that Troy wasn’t between Greeks but also others such as the Pelasgians, Illyrians and Thracians, of course Illyrians sided with Trojans, and Trojans are said to have visited Apollonia, in illyria.

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    I never heard trojans where aligned with ilyrians.....trojans and thracians yes, actually east of troas lands on the coast was thracian lands , north of trojans, where thracians, samothrace island as well as lesbos where ancient thracian lands
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    10.28 is pretty far away but on the other hand it's to an ancient sample.
    I am a north italian and i am much closer

    1. Gallo-Roman (590 AD) ..... 7.349 - SZ28 (Click for more info)
    Top 99% match vs all users

    2. Illyrian / Dalmatian (1200 BC) ..... 7.971 - I3313 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users


    3. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 9.665 - SZ36 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    4. Central Roman (670 AD) ..... 9.851 - CL36 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    5. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 10.03 - SZ43 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    6. North Roman Warrior (590 AD) ..... 10.08 - NS3c (Click for more info)
    Top 99% match vs all users

    Last edited by torzio; 25-09-19 at 07:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I never heard trojans where aligned with ilyrians.....trojans and thracians yes, actually east of troas lands on the coast was thracian lands , north of trojans, where thracians, samothrace island as well as lesbos where ancient thracian lands
    It’s a theory, because Paeonians were classified as Illyrians and they are often mentioned in the Iliad, so were Dardanians, and Trojans often visited Apollonia. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were connected.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I am a north italian and i am much closer

    1. Gallo-Roman (590 AD) ..... 7.349 - SZ28 (Click for more info)
    Top 99% match vs all users

    2. Illyrian / Dalmatian (1200 BC) ..... 7.971 - I3313 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users


    3. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 9.665 - SZ36 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    4. Central Roman (670 AD) ..... 9.851 - CL36 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    5. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 10.03 - SZ43 (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    6. North Roman Warrior (590 AD) ..... 10.08 - NS3c (Click for more info)
    Top 99% match vs all users

    I3313 Illyrian / Dalmatian 1200 BC shared identified DNA segments


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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    There is no evidence to say he wasn’t Greek, apart from rumours about his mum being half barbaric, and him having non Greeks in his army along with Greeks, but that’s not very uncommon in armies.

    He was Greek, if any of the “Greek” heroes turn out not to be Greek it would probably most likely be Achilles and not Alexander the Great any smart Albanian who’s studied Alexander the Great knows he was Greek and not Illyrian, unless his mother really was half Illyrian, that still makes him a Greek with Illyrian ancestry, it doesn’t take away his Greek origins.


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    First of all, the issue is more complex and simple than we make it to be in the same time. All these tribes who lived next to each other were very similar to identical, and for sure Proto-Hellenes were brothers/cousins of the exact same stock as Proto-Illyrians and Thracians.

    What made them different after 1000 years? The amount of local intermixing, assuming the Hellenes inherited far more local genes than the more Northern Illyrians and Thracians were the population could have been more scarce, but also the further South (or any direction) the more diluted would have been the blood of the tribes, e.g. the Hellenes didn't come overnight from North Eastern Europe to Southern Greece.

    So considering this, personally I see an obvious connection between the local unknown culture of Greece and its appropriation by the incoming Hellenes. For sure their forefathers who dwelt more North were identical to the Illyrians and Thracians in their appearance, way of life, etc. The caste system of India comes to mind with such an example.

    Now back on the topic, all those small tribes around the area of South Illyria, Paeonia, Epirus, Makedonia, Emathia, Mygdonia, Orestis, etc. were a bunch of highlanders cousins to each other. What fate brought for them later on is different depending on the situation, as some adopted the city states system of the Southern Hellenes while others remained barbaric in way of life and tongue.

    Even proper Illyrians were accepted to the Olympic games and the coins from Skodra (the capital of the strongest Illyrii proprie dicti tribes) were written in Greek, yet it doesn't make them Greeks.

    Did we inherit Alexander's biography book where he proudly says 100 times how Greek he was? No.

    Did he spread Greek culture? Of course. How different was the Greek culture from it's neighbours? It seems not so much, they're both Indo-European with Balkan influence and right next to each other.

    Was this amazing culture we are all fascinated about really Greek (Indo-European)? Maybe not, maybe partially.

    Were the true Athenians and Spartans were the same? Maybe not. Maybe the Spartans descended more from pure blooded Dorians/Hellenes and were physically more Northern, while the Athenians were assimilated locals of the Mediterranean type who inherited a way more advanced culture influenced by the even more advanced Aegean, Hittite, Egyptian, Phoenician, etc. cultures.

    So Alexander was a cultured rich prince with a hot temper and spirit of a ruthless yet fair and curious conqueror. He wasn't a poor Illyrian ruthless warrior whose main profession was piracy nor a well mannered sophisticated Athenien "softie".

    Hope that makes sense and answers the question as we're not talking about modern nations with established borders where even if different, people of the same nation were indirectly "forced" to mix with one another and still create an identity, even genetically. Although in the Balkans luckily that's not yet the case as the nations are still very young.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There were 230 Greek tribes. Makednoi, the progenitors of Macedonians among them. They were a nomadic, pastoralist society that wandered around Thessaly, Epirus, Western Macedonia for centuries, before settling first around Aigai and later Pella. Other Greek tribes were also on the move sometimes displaced by stronger, more aggressive tribes.

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