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Thread: EU Enlargement and Russia: Possible Marriage?

  1. #26
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    So much nervousness here. EU elections are coming soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Well, lets see, I am pretty confident that will not happen.

    A different scenario is more likely, the annexation of the Krim is a sign of political failure to make Ukraine an ally, by forcing the Ukraine to give up the Krim, it lost its influence at least in the west of the Ukraine..
    Well, western Ukraine always was a problem. Polish-Austian neo-nazi frankenstein of "Lebrok style" brought in Soviet Union only extra costs and troubles, so RF did not lost anything. East Ukraine making almost the whole Ukr GDP, will be nice ally for Russia on the western border.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    By that time you referring to Russia has probably big internal problems and all its Eurasian allies( Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia etc) will not listen to the music of the Kreml anymore. And that is something Putin is really scared of. If Russia continuous to bully its neighbouring countries it will loose more and more allies and partners.
    It might get driven in the arms of China...and not sure how that relationship will turn out especially considering the territories in the East of Russia.
    EU & US also have big internal problems. Hope Russia will finally get rid of dollar in it's economy and will trade more with China & Asia in general. Europe unfortunetly became a complete american lapdog. In particular Merkel and Germany is very disappointing.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    American lapdog? Mwah, depends. Christian Democrats are usually more pro American that's true and so are the English in general, look in Iraq. But what do you expect the EU has no military strategy or defence, this is still NATO with the US as a convenient partner. But this will have to change even the Americans know this.

    Oh yes, we have our own problems we have will have to innovate otherwise we will have trouble compete with the B(r)ic countries . If our education system doesn't fail in the meantime, we will do just fine. We will have to adapt to new world order.

    However Russia tries to hang on to something in a way that will work against them finally. Don't hug the hamster too hard, that his eyes are popping out. Lets say it this way, it doesn't make loyal allies when you have a political crisis...you never know... in other words they will leave if they can.

    And this brings me to Putin how long wants he to be president of Russia... indefinitely? Does he wait until cloning techniques comes available, so that he can clone himself.
    But serious this in itself is a risk for Russia. If there is no serious opposition you will end up with an idiot again as president and/or a corrupt bastard that thinks he owns the state.
    Last edited by Christiaan; 23-04-14 at 00:39.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    At the moment,Russia people would have to loose if they join EU.
    If they get rid of Putin,they can become a country as rich,as Norway is.
    For this,they should start behaving and having leaders according to their Nordic race (with most Russians being Nordic people) and not a leadership composed by dictators.
    But for the future,maybe Russians will want to help Europeans from EU,because it seems they need help and in this situation,Russia could join EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    Well, western Ukraine always was a problem. Polish-Austian neo-nazi frankenstein of "Lebrok style"
    Yes very typical for freedom loving "Citizens of the world", lol.

    EU & US also have big internal problems. Hope Russia will finally get rid of dollar in it's economy and will trade more with China[/QUOTE] That's because you have no idea how economy works. China has 2 trillion dollars, so guess with what they will pay for your gas. whahahahaha

    I guess now you are realizing how strong US economy is and how insignificant is Russian Ruble. Keep building your empire with rubles and outdated military equipment.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    And this brings me to Putin how long wants he to be president of Russia... indefinitely? Does he wait until cloning techniques comes available, so that he can clone himself.
    Remember that most Russians love Putin and his promise of new Russian Empire. They will vote for him again and again, till they hit the bottom of huge recession. It is like dealing with an addict.
    But serious this in itself is a risk for Russia. If there is no serious opposition you will end up with an idiot again as president and/or a corrupt bastard that thinks he owns the state.
    Oh yeah, and anyone who promises Russian Empire. It is very said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    At the moment,Russia people would have to loose if they join EU.
    If they get rid of Putin,they can become a country as rich,as Norway is.
    For this,they should start behaving and having leaders according to their Nordic race (with most Russians being Nordic people) and not a leadership composed by dictators.
    But for the future,maybe Russians will want to help Europeans from EU,because it seems they need help and in this situation,Russia could join EU.
    Russians never had democracy till recently. They've been always told what to do by Tsar or First Secretary. They're just learning how to use democracy, and it will take them a long time to have a proper country.

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    Yes, for now that is true, but nobody forces him physically to get elected (he probably wouldn't let them anyway :P), that is still his choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Russians never had democracy till recently. They've been always told what to do by Tsar or First Secretary. They're just learning how to use democracy, and it will take them a long time to have a proper country.
    They do not have democracy now either,mr Putin is like a Tsar.
    But I think they have a strong democratic current ,especially in the European part of Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Yes, for now that is true, but nobody forces him physically to get elected (he probably wouldn't let them anyway :P), that is still his choice.
    Yes he wants to be a leader and he loves every minute of it. I was saying that his vision of Russia is very seductive to most population, that's why he gets re-elected. He doesn't need to cheat or cancel elections.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    American lapdog? Mwah, depends. Christian Democrats are usually more pro American that's true and so are the English in general, look in Iraq. But what do you expect the EU has no military strategy or defence, this is still NATO with the US as a convenient partner. But this will have to change even the Americans know this.
    In fact the Germany - the leader of Europe don't have full sovereignty, to talk about the rest of Europe not even need.
    That happened because the Europe still under occupation. Yes the commies are gone, the bear returned into his forest, but there are still americans who invaded from Normandy in 1945. They are still keep their military bases in Europe, they are still cultivate politicians into their "liberal colleges" for european governments, slowly erasing like a snake European identity towards the full Americanization. European countries today like vassals in medieval ages sent it's armies to fight in yankee wars, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Latest "know-how" of yankees is so called: "free trade agreement" a cunning ploy to turn Europe into a colony, economically. There are no Churchills, de Gaulles, Bismarcks in Europe anymore, only vegetables like Rompuy & Hollande. Europe is finished...Fortunately for me Russia is not Europe well, not quite Europe .

    Of course from our side will be stupid to integrate with such Europe. No matter from what metals the prison cell is made, gold or iron, it's still the anglo-saxon cell. By other words I myself wanna more independent Europe, even if it will be ruled by Germany and sometimes anti-Russia, until this moment is premature to talk about the any kind of integration.

    Yankees failed with Russia's transformation into lapdog since they thought that we were defeated while we just changed the form of rule, from communist totalitarian super dictatorship to sovereign democracy. It's like in Sid Meier's Civilization games, you just getting several turns of anarchy (drunkard Yeltsin) but after everything come back to business as usual


    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    And this brings me to Putin how long wants he to be president of Russia... indefinitely? Does he wait until cloning techniques comes available, so that he can clone himself.
    But serious this in itself is a risk for Russia. If there is no serious opposition you will end up with an idiot again as president and/or a corrupt bastard that thinks he owns the state.
    Vlad already packed his bags, but then Americans presented him the Crimea as a gift and his popularity raised to 82%. Hell don't know now when Vlad retires

    Anyway, don't think that Vlad decides everything here. Even communist Soviet Union was ruled by a party. It's a mistake of Hannibal to think that need just to eliminate a single person or city and the opponent power will be defeated. When after the battle at Cannes Hannibal sieged Rome he understood that Rome is not just a city, it's a system.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We are not a colony, so far the Amercians do not invade us because we don't agree with them and yes they stay on their bases and they don't attack our barracks. As I said before it is convenient to have them as an ally, I'm not saying that is a good attitude in the long term. Europe is not finished it is adapting to a new world order, but that takes time to sink into the minds of politicians with a predominantly national mindset.

    Russia is at a point Europe was 70 to 40 years ago, when we lost almost all of our colonies. The Dutch were almost 400 years in Indonesia, and yet we had to make a step back. I imagine that this will happen to Russia as well. So hang to your imperialistic idea of Russia as long as you want to, but this trend is not reversible, unless you want to use a lot of force which makes you very unpopular in the rest of the world.

    This up and down sounds like a manic depression, this is not economic environment you would like to invest to, unless you want to cope with a certain risk. Back to normal? Well, as I said it is not quite reversible or is it?

    About vegetables, vegetables are very healthy. We can eat them, but they can't eat us ;). That's how democracy should work.

    And no, I don't think in terms of enemies you have to crush, but even one person can make the difference to the better or worse, even if there is a system behind it.
    Last edited by Christiaan; 25-04-14 at 19:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    We are not a colony, so far the Amercians do not invade us because we don't agree with them and yes they stay on their bases and they don't attack our barracks.
    They don't invade you because they already did it in 1944 and never left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    As I said before it is convenient to have them as an ally, I'm not saying that is a good attitude in the long term. Europe is not finished it is adapting to a new world order, but that takes time to sink into the minds of politicians with a predominantly national mindset.
    I am guess it's convenient for you until they have resources to pay for protectection of your country. Well, I am understand that position, but and you understand my that for Russia the USA is enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Russia is at a point Europe was 70 to 40 years ago, when we lost almost all of our colonies. The Dutch were almost 400 years in Indonesia, and yet we had to make a step back. I imagine that this will happen to Russia as well. So hang to your imperialistic idea of Russia as long as you want to, but this trend is not reversible, unless you want to use a lot of force which makes you very unpopular in the rest of the world.
    Russia's "colony - mother country" system of relations was different from the western, if the western countries pumped out all the juice out of their colonies then the communists in many ways fed their colonies at the expense of mother country to keep them loyal (like subsidization of Middle Asian "stans" or even Ukraine who transformed from pretty developed state with space technologies & powerful industry in 1991 to medieval age hellhole to 2014). In a sense, we got rid of the ballast. So nor me nor guys in Kremlin don't really think about capturing of ex-Soviet republics physically like Lenin & co did. For Kremlin profitable to include them in the process of economical integration, for example amount of trade between participants of the Customs Union grew at times. Furthermore Kremlin does not need those who do not want to be with Russia, in case of Ukraine it would be better to cut the country on two parts since the country consist from two civilisations. I thought it was obvious that people of eastern orthodox-tzar-atheist-communist civilization don't want to live in one country with wild nazi chimpanzees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    About vegetables, vegetables are very healthy. We can eat them, but they can't eat us ;). That's how democracy should work.
    I am afraid these vegetables will finally sell remnants of your independence without asking your opinion to transatlantic "uncle" and former metropoly will become a future colony

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    And no, I don't think in terms of enemies you have to crush, but even one person can make the difference to the better or worse, even if there is a system behind it.
    Say that to Obama, guy can't even accept a health care law without consultation with the oligarchy he needs to be inspired

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What you call an "invasion" of western allies was for many a liberation and it still is, unlike the Soviet "liberation" which was perceived as an occupation only shortly after. The Americans would have given up some of their bases much earlier if the Soviet union wasn't such a threat to Western Europe. And I think they preferably would be stationed in the pacific right now if only they Europeans could get their act together when it comes to the defence of Europe.

    Russia's "colony - mother country" system of relations was different from the western, if the western countries pumped out all the juice out of their colonies then the communists in many ways fed their colonies at the expense of mother country to keep them loyal (like subsidization of Middle Asian "stans" or even Ukraine who transformed from pretty developed state with space technologies & powerful industry in 1991 to medieval age hellhole to 2014). In a sense, we got rid of the ballast. So nor me nor guys in Kremlin don't really think about capturing of ex-Soviet republics physically like Lenin & co did. For Kremlin profitable to include them in the process of economical integration, for example amount of trade between participants of the Customs Union grew at times. Furthermore Kremlin does not need those who do not want to be with Russia, in case of Ukraine it would be better to cut the country on two parts since the country consist from two civilisations. I thought it was obvious that people of eastern orthodox-tzar-atheist-communist civilization don't want to live in one country with wild nazi chimpanzees.
    So with different you mean better ? The invasion of the Caucasus was pretty bloody, so don't think too highly of Russian imperialism. Russian history is not made of saints either. To be honest, I see almost no difference right now, between pro-russians and the Ukrainian right sector(minus peaceful Euromaidan protestors) -except the first one is better armed. Both have an unhealthy obsession with nationality.

    I am afraid these vegetables will finally sell remnants of your independence without asking your opinion to transatlantic "uncle" and former metropoly will become a future colony
    Well, let's see how the Americans see the trade agreement, when they have to apply EU regulations on their products :P...hell, those bloody communists in Europe! Do we really have to do this from now on?

    Aw, not so harsh about Obama, he did achieve more than George Bush did. And this case he made a huge difference even he had some serious opposition.
    Last edited by Christiaan; 27-04-14 at 23:20.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    They don't invade you because they already did it in 1944 and never left.



    I am guess it's convenient for you until they have resources to pay for protectection of your country. Well, I am understand that position, but and you understand my that for Russia the USA is enemy.
    For fun lets assume that a miracle happened and you are right. USA indeed invaded all Western Europe and few other countries, and enslaved the populations for US benefits. There is a little caveat in your logic though. All the "conquered" countries are prosperous and ones of richest in the world, and not only in Europe but Japan and S. Korea too. How is this possible, when US should be sucking them dry? Isn't it the priority and main reason of conquering others?
    This just proves your statement wrong, wrong, wrong.

    This is how true Imperialist hegemony works. When Soviet Union "liberated" others and was "helping" them a lot, there was a constant shortage of basic goods, from food to toiletry. There were years when even the gray and hard toilet paper (there was only one kind) was unavailable and people were forced to use old newspapers instead (I was always looking for Pravda to use for this purpose). So, thanks for "helping", and "protecting" lol. But to be honest there were always 3 products available even in deepest recession: jam, pickles and official newspaper of communist party, proclaiming that shortages of products are temporary and caused by cunning western imperialists. Lol, precious memories...
    Few short years after communism collapse, the stores were full with products. Wow, without the "help" of Soviet Union Poland was doing economically much better right away. 25 years later Polish GDP is 3 times bigger than it was with Russian help, with no shortage of food and other goods ever since. It became obvious which direction the help went. You are welcome Anton. It is one of best examples how occupying imperialist power can suck a vassal country dry.
    We should mention that Ukraine remain in Russian helping hands till today, with economy stagnant and collapsing. Thanks for helping Anton. Did it ever occur to you that whoever Russia helped and helps was poor and remained poor? Yes, just listen to the sucking sound of Russian "help".

    Interestingly, to be more perverted, Russians had charity boxes in public places to collect funds for "Hungry Poles" and other East European "friends". Ordinary Russians honestly believed that they help "friends" and take nothing in return. Anton still believes that this is true, and that all recent Russian maladies are caused by Western Imperialism and their agents. This is 100 year old propaganda which started after revolution. His beliefs are very pronounced in Ukrainian thread. Communist propaganda went so deep even affecting today's Russian society many years later. So deep that even educated Anton can disregard all facts and logic and remain delusional in spite. The saddest part is that he represents 80% of Russians who are dreaming about new empire to protect themselves from the "decadent, greedy and imperialistic" West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    The invasion of the Caucasus was pretty bloody, so don't think too highly of Russian imperialism. Russian history is not made of saints either. To be honest I don't see very little difference right now between pro-russians and the Ukrainian right sector(minus peaceful Euromaidan protestors) -except the first one is better armed. Both have an unhealthy obsession with nationality.
    Isn't it funny? They hate each other the most but they are exactly the same.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Anton uses a lot of "tu quoque" argumentation which is all to often a sign of proud people with poor debating skills. Putin reacts in the same way by the way if he's asked about some human rights issues, first he denies the critical remarks and than he uses tu quoqe arguments. http://www.zie.nl/video/algemeen/Rus...t/m1nzctmfg8j2

    In other words: "You are saying there is something wrong with us? Look at yourself there is even something more wrong about you guys(...you hypocrites).

    So according to Anton, everything seems to be legitimized as long as we all are labelled as hypocrites. "So everyone shut up, this is not your business, stop criticising, because in the end we all are hypocrites"; which in itself I suppose is a thought terminating cliché.

    I have no problem to admit that we made mistakes ourself, Anton. ... so keep up with comparing the mistakes that we made with the Russian mistakes if that makes you happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    What you call an "invasion" of western allies was for many a liberation and it still is, unlike the Soviet "liberation" which was perceived as an occupation only shortly after.
    American "liberation" not very much different from the Soviet, they were just more convinient for western Europe since they support free market and stuff... but also establish puppet governments, rewriting history books, marginalizing the countries they being present, creating "doggy" elites, countries with yankee occupation lose any kind of independence. I am hardly can image European governments could call for Americans to come and take their sovereignty in any other conditions.
    If you think that all Hitler's mistakes were fixed when communists left captured part of Europe then you are mistaking, that's only half of the deal.
    Anyway, your fate into your hands, if everything is suits you then nice. Maybe to be a puppet is your level, born to crawl can not fly. I am will not tear my hair on this occasion.
    From my personal point of view the Germany started all this mess in 1939, so responsibility for the salvation of west Europe is theirs

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    The invasion of the Caucasus was pretty bloody, so don't think too highly of Russian imperialism. Russian history is not made of saints either.
    Russia and does not pretend to be a saint where I am wrote that Russia is saint?

    About Chechnya wanna say that there is was no alternative. By invading Dagestan radical muslims showed that they can't live in peace, only constant war. It was necessary to eliminate the fundamentalist nest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    To be honest I don't see very little difference right now between pro-russians and the Ukrainian right sector(minus peaceful Euromaidan protestors) -except the first one is better armed. Both have an unhealthy obsession with nationality.
    Modern Ukraine is failed state, no wonder that it's full of radical forces. I am just wanna say that "to calm" that country can only seperation on two (as minimum) parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Well, let's see how the Americans see the trade agreement, when they have to apply EU regulations on their products :P...hell, those bloody communists in Europe! Do we really have to do this from now on?
    According to that agreement European agriculture will be destroyed by cheap GMO food of American corporations. American corporations currently bribing EU politicians.

    I am wish to Lebrok to eat more GMO "Monsanto" food, maybe when second head will grow out of his a** he will become smarter

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Aw, not so harsh about Obama, he did achieve more than George Bush did. And this case he made a huge difference even he had some serious opposition.
    Bush was a true face of America, crazy imperialist cowboy who invades countries because "lack of democracy there" lol

    Now Obama wanna make it look that nothing had happened. Actually have nothing against him, but he is unfortunately a puppet. Like a hired manager for 100 richest American families.

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    Anyway, your fate into your hands, if everything is suits you then nice. Maybe to be a puppet is your level, born to crawl can not fly. I am will not tear my hair on this occasion.
    Well, as long as I don't feel a hand in my a**, I am pretty confident that I'll do fine. Once you believe what is broadcasted on "Voice of Russia"(Russian Fox news) or similair Russian medium however, you might catch that paranoid sensation you are suffering from, so be careful.
    Last edited by Christiaan; 28-04-14 at 01:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Anton uses a lot of "tu quoque" argumentation which is all to often a sign of proud people with poor debating skills. Putin reacts in the same way by the way if he's asked about some human rights issues, first he denies the critical remarks and than he uses tu quoqe arguments. http://www.zie.nl/video/algemeen/Rus...t/m1nzctmfg8j2

    In other words: "You are saying there is something wrong with us? Look at yourself there is even something more wrong about you guys(...you hypocrites).
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    Spot on observation, plus ridicule, twist facts, ridicule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Isn't it funny? They hate each other the most but they are exactly the same.
    They should have their own club house... oh no, wait they hate each other... Ah well they figure it out...

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    Russia will not want to join ... and to think Germany and France want Russia to join is fantasy ... Never because Russia is too large and would become to important part of EU if join.

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    The Yankees started this whole mess in the Ukraine just because they are afraid of integration of Russia and Germany / EU. Ukraine is now playing the role of the separating wedge between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yes, by force is bad, by choice is good. And for that reason Russia lost many countries from it's Union (Soviet Union included) and EU gained. Perhaps for russian mindset it is the same thing, but not to the free world.

    I think viewpoint of Poles and Czech tend to be skewed on the issue. There is a tendency (not saying it is also the case with you) to blame Russians for Soviet Union misdeeds. But Russia is often left out in enumerating victims of Soviet regime. Think of all Russians who ended up in concentration camps in Siberia. Remind yourself that Russia as a country did not grow with creation of Soviet Union but has shrinked. E.g. it lost Crimea and Georgia and many other parts. It did not get parts inhabited by Russians as you would expect that conquering nation would do. Remember that the key figures of Soviet Union were not really Russian. as far as I remember Lenin was Jewish, Stalin was Georgian, and Khrushchev was Ukrainian. In fact, first actual Russian that got real importance in political elite of USSR was probably Gorbachev.Now were really Russians the ones who ruled over others by force or was it others (communists) ruling over Russians, Czechs, Poles, Ukrainians and all other people in Soviet Union and eastern block...In fact I am convinced that you are not blaming modern Germans for Hitler and his nationalistic ideology, while you tend to blame Russians for anti-national ideology that ruled over them and for deeds of e.g. Stalin (Georgian and not Russian).

    I mention this because similar happened with ex-Yugoslavia. Tito was half Croat half Slovene. Many, in fact most, chief political figures were also Croats and Slovenes and yet in 90s Croat and Slovene media were screaming their guts out about THEM being occupied politically and economically in that ex Yugoslavia, completely disregarding the facts e.g. that Croatia and Slovenia were pushed or allowed (depending on perspective) to be economically most developed, that Catholic Croats and Slovenes were allowed to be religious and nationally aware while Orthodox Serbs could end up jobless or even imprisoned if insisting on being religious or nationally aware, that advantage is given to latin script over the cyrilic and that in addition communist regime gave a separate republic to Croats, to Slovenes, to Macedonians, but did split core ethnic space of Serbs in 4 (Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Serbia) out of 6 republics and did additionally split Serbia with introducing 2 autonomous provinces ruled by communists from minorities living in those parts of Serbia. Hence based on all this its hard to see how were Croats and Slovenes suppressed in any way politically, historically, economically or culturally. No surprise that a mass hysteria of mass media, coupled with history of conflicts in last century, and with artificial borders brought up by political elite of communist Yugoslavia, led to wars.

    Not saying that Czech republic was not shamefully occupied in 1968th. Just stating that Russians themselves were occupied by such a regime in 1917th. Try to see it from their perspective. Just because they were most numerous in such a state doesnot mean they were not victims of such state and ideology. And I am certainly not comparing position of Czechs and Polish in Soviet block to role of Croatia and Slovenia in ex-Yugoslavia. Political elite of Croatia and Slovenia was in fact leading communist Yugoslavia, which is not the case for political elite of Czechoslovakia or Poland. But compare e.g. right of Russians to be religious with right of Czechs and Poles to be religious. Before blaming Russians think of all the Russians ending up in concentration camps in Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Ha-ha-ha. So when the EU incorporates and absorbs countries it's always for the good but when Russia does it it's always for the bad.
    Depends. EU didn't forced any country to incorporate within. I can't say the same for Russia

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