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View Poll Results: Should Russia become an EU member?

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Thread: EU Enlargement and Russia: Possible Marriage?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yes, by force is bad, by choice is good. And for that reason Russia lost many countries from it's Union (Soviet Union included) and EU gained. Perhaps for russian mindset it is the same thing, but not to the free world.
    Between Russia and EU is a big huge and large gap: the democracy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    The Yankees started this whole mess in the Ukraine just because they are afraid of integration of Russia and Germany / EU. Ukraine is now playing the role of the separating wedge between.
    There are not throughout Ukraine American soldiers. But there are already Russian soldiers in Crimea and on east south Ukraine. Two Russian soldiers were captured by the Ukraine army inside Ukraine. Russian invaded Crimea and after that they held the referendum, which really was manipulated.

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    You believe in democracy in the EU for real?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    There are not throughout Ukraine American soldiers. But there are already Russian soldiers in Crimea and on east south Ukraine. Two Russian soldiers were captured by the Ukraine army inside Ukraine. Russian invaded Crimea and after that they held the referendum, which really was manipulated.
    What does the actual potential show? US military spending is higher than that of all countries in the world taken together. The aggregate military spending of NATO countries is 10 times, note – 10 times higher than that of the Russian Federation. Russia has virtually no bases abroad. We have the remnants of our armed forces (since Soviet times) in Tajikistan, on the border with Afghanistan, which is an area where the terrorist threat is particularly high. The same role is played by our airbase in Kyrgyzstan; it is also aimed at addressing the terrorist threat and was set up at the request of the Kyrgyz authorities after a terrorist attack perpetrated by terrorists from Afghanistan on Kyrgyzstan.
    http://www.mintpressnews.com/putin-p...the-us/206343/

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    From Russian point of view Russia can't be a part of EU but EU itself can be a part of Russia.

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    Will never happen. But most importantly is that the EU must change. It must drop "ever closer union" because the European people do not want this. It should remain as a confederation or at least very close alliance. No more open borders. Military cooperation, and economic cooperation are good. Decentralization must happen as soon as possible, no rule from Brussels. The Islamophile elite must be voted out, and Europe should pursue a closer alliance with America, Canada, Israel, and India.

    The new European Union should make it a priority to defend Western civilization and values. Europe must stand strong against Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar. The incompetence and Islamophilia have forced angry right-wing movements to turn to Putin and Russia who is benefiting from the collapse of the Union. They are exploiting Europe's weakness. But I am hoping that when the EU is reformed Herzegovina and Republika Srpska can break away from Islamic Bosnia and then join the union. Kosovo and Bosnia should be excluded, as they are Islamic. Albania is becoming less Islamic and supports European values so they should be allowed.

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    People love to have a romantic idea of the nation and sovereignty. This has its justification, and national sentiments have their weight but should not be exaggerated. We live in 21. century, and many things have changed. Loose union cannot work. Small European countries cannot compete with giants in the world, it is a loosing battle. Only strong union can compete including one currency, banking union, fiscal union, political union and federalization. It is European path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    People love to have a romantic idea of the nation and sovereignty. This has its justification, and national sentiments have their weight but should not be exaggerated. We live in 21. century, and many things have changed. Loose union cannot work. Small European countries cannot compete with giants in the world, it is a loosing battle. Only strong union can compete including one currency, banking union, fiscal union, political union and federalization. It is European path.
    Not if the people do not want it. If sovereign nations can't function in the modern world then maybe this is a problem with the modern world. The argument that you make is made by most European federalists and is fundamentally flawed. Independence movements are happening all over the world; the people do not want to live in a superstate. Even the nations you mention that European countries cannot compete with have problems with independence movements. Russia is collapsing and has no control over the Caucasus ethnic republics. America is increasingly divided by various political ideologies and regional differences (but in my opinion should be a friend of Europe). Even Mexico now has secessionist movements, and China cannot maintain its iron grip over the population. Also it is because of liberal Europhiles that Islam is threatening European culture and values, so your project wouldn't even work as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    Not if the people do not want it. If sovereign nations can't function in the modern world then maybe this is a problem with the modern world. The argument that you make is made by most European federalists and is fundamentally flawed. Independence movements are happening all over the world; the people do not want to live in a superstate. Even the nations you mention that European countries cannot compete with have problems with independence movements. Russia is collapsing and has no control over the Caucasus ethnic republics. America is increasingly divided by various political ideologies and regional differences (but in my opinion should be a friend of Europe). Even Mexico now has secessionist movements, and China cannot maintain its iron grip over the population. Also it is because of liberal Europhiles that Islam is threatening European culture and values, so your project wouldn't even work as it is.
    Just opposite. Small European states nations cannot prevent Islamic extremists. But strong EU can. EU border forces can protect south borders very efficient.

    National romance can be beautiful, however this is 21. century where it is easy to look at the advantages and disadvantages of some options. Certainly superstate can become reality. The euro zone will expand to the whole EU, banking union is on verge, fiscal union should more time however it will see the light of day.

    Europhiles can have different ideologies, it doesn't matter if they more right or left, in general people do not have to be Europhiles, interests and opportunities that exist in superstate make it much desirable option for most people. Bigger state = bigger opportunities for individual, small state = narrowness of opportunities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    From Russian point of view Russia can't be a part of EU but EU itself can be a part of Russia.
    Russia has the right approach. They are trying to create their own union as a counterweight to the EU. But it makes sense for Russia to join NATO. Russia can not defend their borders against China, Afghanistan. Chinese have immediate plans to overtake Mongolia and after that the Sino-Russian border will become unprotected. The participation of Russia in NATO will be a deterrent

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    European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

    No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.
    It is only one of phase towards fully integration.

    Phases after common market are: Economic union, Economic and Monetary union, Fiscal union and Complete integration - Political union.

    European Union is economic union (common market with a custom union).

    Eurozone is economic union and monetary union (with euro as currency).

    All EU countries will introduce euro and become Eurozone members (it is just a matter of time).

    Fiscal union is integration of fiscal and budgetary policy of member states, it is next step.

    Political union is federalist system, it is final step.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.
    You think Greece, Bulgaria, and Romania should be out of EU?

    And what it means orthodox country?

    In Greece, Bulgaria and Romania which are members of European union, as in Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro which are in the process of joining the EU, and in Moldova, etc. (which will be in process in future time) religion is separated from state. They are secular states not religious states. In these countries there are Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, Catholic Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc., everyone is free to chose religion which want or to be non believer. European Union is not based on religion, every European country can be part of EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is only one of phase towards fully integration.

    Phases after common market are: Economic union, Economic and Monetary union, Fiscal union and Complete integration - Political union.

    European Union is economic union (common market with a custom union).

    Eurozone is economic union and monetary union (with euro as currency).

    All EU countries will introduce euro and become Eurozone members (it is just a matter of time).

    Fiscal union is integration of fiscal and budgetary policy of member states, it is next step.

    Political union is federalist system, it is final step.
    Federalism suits interest of countries like Germany and France, as it would speedy their economic and political domination in the Union.

    No other country wants it, espacially not mass immigration and radicalism that is currently flourisning in heart of the EU.

    Fiscal Union was already a mistake. Smaller countries that have kept their fiscal indipendence fared better than members of the Eurozone.

    Eu should be nothing more than trade Union, as it was originally designed.




    You think Greece, Bulgaria, and Romania should be out of EU?


    And what it means orthodox country?

    In Greece, Bulgaria and Romania which are members of European union, as in Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro which are in the process of joining the EU, and in Moldova, etc. (which will be in process in future time) religion is separated from state. They are secular states not religious states. In these countries there are Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, Catholic Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc., everyone is free to chose religion which want or to be non believer. European Union is not based on religion, every European country can be part of EU.
    Greece is failure, money leeching country in constant state of near-bankrupcy.

    Romania and Bulgaria are poorest members of the EU, their biggest countribution being export of Gypsy criminals trough out the West. Mind that EU does not benefit them either, as most of their educated population left the country.

    Orthodox countries are secular on paper only, it is one of main reasons of their poor socioeconomic development. Russia is no exception, and already has Eurasian economic Union. They are anti European traditionally, and nobody wants them closer.

    I don't see differennce in admitting Russia or Turkey, both should stay out.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

    No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.
    just a question,

    protestants and muslims are allowed to EU?
    pagans and animists should be allowed to EU?
    Hindu Buddists and Sintoists ?

    which religion should be allowed to EU?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    just a question,

    protestants and muslims are allowed to EU?
    pagans and animists should be allowed to EU?
    Hindu Buddists and Sintoists ?
    Islam is not welcome in Europe for sure.

    Comparison of Protestants with Orthodox is impossible, since Protestant Churches are not politically tied to host country, neither influence them in any significant manner.

    North-West Europe is mainly irreligious today. Problem with Orthdox countries is not religious, but rather culturo-political.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Islam is not welcome in Europe for sure.

    Comparison of Protestants with Orthodox is impossible, since Protestant Churches are not politically tied to host country, neither influence them in any significant manner.

    North-West Europe is mainly irreligious today. Problem with Orthdox countries is not religious, but rather culturo-political.
    so by what I see you want EU to be a catholic coalition,
    then England did well and vote Brexit since they are protestants,
    correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Federalism suits interest of countries like Germany and France, as it would speedy their economic and political domination in the Union.

    No other country wants it, espacially not mass immigration and radicalism that is currently flourisning in heart of the EU.

    Fiscal Union was already a mistake. Smaller countries that have kept their fiscal indipendence fared better than members of the Eurozone.

    Eu should be nothing more than trade Union, as it was originally designed.
    European union today is economic union, three steps ahead free trade area, two steps ahead customs union, and step ahead common market.

    Eurozone is economic and monetary union, step ahead economic union.

    Yes there are proponents of divergent trends, but it is hard to happen, it is more likely that all EU members will become members of Eurozone (including Croatia).

    Next steps are banking union (what is certain) and fiscal union (what requires some more time).

    Final step is political union (federal system).

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Greece is failure, money leeching country in constant state of near-bankrupcy.

    Romania and Bulgaria are poorest members of the EU, their biggest countribution being export of Gypsy criminals trough out the West. Mind that EU does not benefit them either, as most of their educated population left the country. Orthodox countries are secular on paper only, it is one of main reasons of their poor socioeconomic development.
    Greece has bigger GDP (PPP) per capita than Croatia.

    IMF (2015) GDP (PPP) per capita, Int$

    44. Greece, 26,449

    57. Croatia, 21,581

    And Romania is very close to Croatia.

    59. Romania, 20,787

    When were you in Romania? Some parts in Romania are more developed than in Croatia.

    If we speak about debt, yes Greece has large debt, but Croatia has larger debt than Romania and Bulgaria.

    Countries by external debt, $ per capita, IMF data

    Greece 47,636

    Croatia 13,519

    Bulgaria 6,261

    Romania 4,485

    Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are not secular only in paper, thinking that these countries are not secular is nonsense.

    And Greece is the cradle of democracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Russia is no exception, and already has Eurasian economic Union. They are anti European traditionally, and nobody wants them closer.

    I don't see differennce in admitting Russia or Turkey, both should stay out.
    Yes, Russia has Eurasian union. Russia is completely different story, this country has much bigger territory in Asia than in Europe. Russia never demanded to be EU member, and it is surely Russia will not demand to be EU member.

    Turkey and European Union have long relations and negotiations. Turkey application is from 1987. Negotiations started 2005. We will see if Turkey will become EU member. Someone should not have prejudices against Turkey. Every candidate for EU must fulfill standards and requirements, but slow process of Turkish accession to EU is due to non-fullfilment of requirements. From present-day perspective it is possible that Turkey is not ready for EU yet, but maybe it can be changed in future, who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    European union today is economic union, three steps ahead free trade area, two steps ahead customs union, and step ahead common market.

    Eurozone is economic and monetary union, step ahead economic union.

    Yes there are proponents of divergent trends, but it is hard to happen, it is more likely that all EU members will become members of Eurozone (including Croatia).

    Next steps are banking union (what is certain) and fiscal union (what requires some more time).

    Final step is political union (federal system).
    You're ignoring the fact that most people inside EU reject such ideas.


    Greece has bigger GDP (PPP) per capita than Croatia.

    IMF (2015) GDP (PPP) per capita, Int$

    44. Greece, 26,449

    57. Croatia, 21,581
    Greece is in worse shape than Croatia. EU member since 1981, compared to socialist background of other Eastern European countries. It's unlikely comparison, however, average Greek does not live better than Croatian.

    And Romania is very close to Croatia.

    59. Romania, 20,787

    When were you in Romania? Some parts in Romania are more developed than in Croatia.
    Romania has lot poorer infrastructure than Croatia. Romanians come to work to Adriatic as cheap workforce. Lately they are making positive progress, but it's a long way to go.

    If we speak about debt, yes Greece has large debt, but Croatia has larger debt than Romania and Bulgaria.

    Countries by external debt, $ per capita, IMF data

    Greece 47,636

    Croatia 13,519

    Bulgaria 6,261

    Romania 4,485
    Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU six years longer than Croatia, and they are still less developed. I didn't say Croatia is a sucessful country (especially considering last decade), either.

    Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are not secular only in paper, thinking that these countries are not secular is nonsense.
    Orthodox Church has been traditionally anti-European (means Western)oriented, with close ties to Moscow.

    And Greece is the cradle of democracy.
    Switzerland has lot more in common with ancient Greek democRacy than modern Greece.


    Yes, Russia has Eurasian union. Russia is completely different story, this country has much bigger territory in Asia than in Europe. Russia never demanded to be EU member, and it is surely Russia will not demand to be EU member.

    Turkey and European Union have long relations and negotiations. Turkey application is from 1987. Negotiations started 2005. We will see if Turkey will become EU member. Someone should not have prejudices against Turkey. Every candidate for EU must fulfill standards and requirements, but slow process of Turkish accession to EU is due to non-fullfilment of requirements. From present-day perspective it is possible that Turkey is not ready for EU yet, but maybe it can be changed in future, who knows.
    Yes, Russia will never have particular interest in joining the EU for well known reasons, but it is the thread's main question, even though it's competely unrealistic.

    Neo-Ottoman Turkey with open Islamist as their president, flooded with terorists and other problems, should have never become member of the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    You're ignoring the fact that most people inside EU reject such ideas.
    Mostly nationalists and skeptics don't accept. In post #62 is natural path of integration, experts have long written about it and politicians accepted.

    Fully integration is the best for European people, and it offers most opportunities for every individual. Of course, if people in any country don't want their country will be out of that system. But it is small number of countries, because advantages fiscal and political union are much bigger than custom or trade union which is at the lower level of development.

    Greece is in worse shape than Croatia. EU member since 1981, compared to socialist background of other Eastern European countries. It's unlikely comparison, however, average Greek does not live better than Croatian.

    Romania has lot poorer infrastructure than Croatia. Romanians come to work to Adriatic as cheap workforce. Lately they are making positive progress, but it's a long way to go.

    Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU six years longer than Croatia, and they are still less developed. I didn't say Croatia is a sucessful country (especially considering last decade), either.
    Statistics is merciless. Croatia is not superior to Greece and Romania, in some ways is better, in some ways is weaker. Croatia was significantly ahead Romania in eighties, and today these two countries are very close.

    But essence is that there is no reason to exclude Greece, Romania and Bulgaria out of EU or not to accept Serbia and Montenegro. European Union is not Catholic union, it is union of European countries.

    Orthodox Church has been traditionally anti-European (means Western)oriented, with close ties to Moscow.
    For many years (during the USSR) Russian Orthodox church had no influence among Orthodox churches. In ecclesiastical matters traditionally Ecumenical Patriarch (Constantinople) has the greatest influence. But those are church issues, few people are interested in this.

    Switzerland has lot more in common with ancient Greek democRacy than modern Greece.
    Greece is cradle of democracy, and now Greek people are very democratic, more than anyone in Balkans and beyond.

    Yes, Russia will never have particular interest in joining the EU for well known reasons, but it is the thread's main question, even though it's competely unrealistic.

    Neo-Ottoman Turkey with open Islamist as their president, flooded with terorists and other problems, should have never become member of the EU.
    Yes, Russia is clear story, it will never want to be member of EU.

    For Turkey situation is different, because Turkey liked to be member of EU, and a lot of Turks wanted accession, but for present day situation I can agree with you, unfortunately Neo-Ottomanism is in agenda these days in Turkey. Maybe situation can be changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

    What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?
    I don't know if it will ... but it should. We have become saturated with 'culture' from the west. No, I don't mean the west - I mean from the far west, over seas. NATO is an evil entity. Europe must disengage from it and sever its influence. The situation in the Crimea is minor compared to what Europe has had to endure (and crimes we've been duped into committing) by following NATO. Should we look to the east for friendship and cooperation? I think so, probably yes. If I think of Europe and America and Russia as 3 separate plots upon the earth, and then consider the "us" and "them" aspect of modern-day, political/cultural juxtapositioning .... then I believe we are better off cooperating with this new Russian plan. Continuing to tag along with those other people have brought the world nothing but death and destruction.
    Put everything back where you found it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

    No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.
    But the EU already has three Orthodox members, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria.

    The idea of Russia in the EU is several decades and many reforms ahead of us, probably never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Federalism suits interest of countries like Germany and France, as it would speedy their economic and political domination in the Union.

    No other country wants it, espacially not mass immigration and radicalism that is currently flourisning in heart of the EU.

    Fiscal Union was already a mistake. Smaller countries that have kept their fiscal indipendence fared better than members of the Eurozone.

    Eu should be nothing more than trade Union, as it was originally designed.






    Greece is failure, money leeching country in constant state of near-bankrupcy.
    Maybe you should try to survive a week next to Turkey, in order to grasp the magnitude of the problem. If Greece falls, the next defense line shall be at the gates of Vienna...

    Romania and Bulgaria are poorest members of the EU, their biggest countribution being export of Gypsy criminals trough out the West. Mind that EU does not benefit them either, as most of their educated population left the country.

    Orthodox countries are secular on paper only, it is one of main reasons of their poor socioeconomic development.
    Greece is already majority Atheist/Agnostic, in spite of being Orthodox on paper. Corruption correlates with geography, not religion.

    Russia is no exception, and already has Eurasian economic Union. They are anti European traditionally, and nobody wants them closer.
    In fact Russia is neither "European" nor "anti-European.

    I don't see differennce in admitting Russia or Turkey, both should stay out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    But the EU already has three Orthodox members, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria. ...
    Ooooooops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    In fact Russia is neither "European" nor "anti-European.
    True.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    You're ignoring the fact that most people inside EU reject such ideas.




    Greece is in worse shape than Croatia. EU member since 1981, compared to socialist background of other Eastern European countries. It's unlikely comparison, however, average Greek does not live better than Croatian.



    Romania has lot poorer infrastructure than Croatia. Romanians come to work to Adriatic as cheap workforce. Lately they are making positive progress, but it's a long way to go.



    Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU six years longer than Croatia, and they are still less developed. I didn't say Croatia is a sucessful country (especially considering last decade), either.



    Orthodox Church has been traditionally anti-European (means Western)oriented, with close ties to Moscow.
    Nope, the Patriarchate of Constantinople is independent of the Patriarchate of Moscow. The close ties between the Orthodox countries have more to do with the fact that nearly all of them have been at some point in history under Islamic rule, and they understand a few more things upon the issue...

    Switzerland has lot more in common with ancient Greek democRacy than modern Greece.




    Yes, Russia will never have particular interest in joining the EU for well known reasons, but it is the thread's main question, even though it's competely unrealistic.

    Neo-Ottoman Turkey with open Islamist as their president, flooded with terorists and other problems, should have never become member of the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

    What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?
    I have read that after the fell of communism it was discussed this probabile membership of Russia in EU. The Russians laughed and answered to the Europeans with a question: What's the point guys, you want to join Russia?

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