what is Janteloven : is it true that rich Scandinavians are really frowned upon?

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Well, how about "You're not to think anyone cares about you"? That's a rather bleak view of human nature, and a false one, from my perspective and experience. I would never have told my children such a thing and was certainly never taught that myself.

"You're not to think you're as good as we are" also is putting other people down.

Do you know the source or the impetus for this mindset?

I know a bunch of Scandinavians (mostly Swedes, some Finns, one Dane), and when asked they basically said it comes down to the idea that everyone does their bit to help society run smoothly together (so, working together like cogs in a machine), and that you're not to try and rise above your role in any way so as to disrupt this machine (it isn't necessarily anti-personal achievement, but it's more like you need to remember you're part of a team). Also, it isn't that they're heartless, but they see individual lives as a personal and separate thing to the community-based collectivistic idea of cogs in a machine - individual cogs (personal lives) aren't a concern as much as the bigger picture of the machine itself.

Overall, probably the perfect recipe for a utopian society (in my opinion).

It's sort of like the stereotype of the German national football team, in direct contrast to a team like Portugal with Ronaldo.

 

[Angela]

I know a bunch of Scandinavians (mostly Swedes, some Finns, one Dane), and when asked they basically said it comes down to the idea that everyone does their bit to help society run smoothly together (so, working together like cogs in a machine), and that you're not to try and rise above your role in any way so as to disrupt this machine (it isn't necessarily anti-personal achievement, but it's more like you need to remember you're part of a team). Also, it isn't that they're heartless, but they see individual lives as a personal and separate thing to the community-based collectivistic idea of cogs in a machine - individual cogs (personal lives) aren't a concern as much as the bigger picture of the machine itself.

Overall, probably the perfect recipe for a utopian society (in my opinion).

It's sort of like the stereotype of the German national football team, in direct contrast to a team like Portugal with Ronaldo.

You corroborate my long held belief that the old Webber scheme of northern Europeans as being individualistic is absolutely wrong. They are, in fact, very collectivist. They're just not family oriented, which is a different thing altogether.

To each their own; not at ALL my cup of tea.

Oh, as for Portugal, much of their style of play is because the rest of their team just isn't very good. Latins can play as a team, you know, and still leave room for individual flair, initiative and seizing the opportunity. Did you watch the 2006 Italy-Germany semi-final? Germany played very well, but... Of course, Italy played extremely, horrifyingly, badly this cycle, but Germany and all its teamwork didn't do very well either.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

You corroborate my long held belief that the old Webber scheme of northern Europeans as being individualistic is absolutely wrong. They are, in fact, very collectivist. They're just not family oriented, which is a different thing altogether.

To each their own; not at ALL my cup of tea.

Oh, as for Portugal, much of their style of play is because the rest of their team just isn't very good. Latins can play as a team, you know, and still leave room for individual flair, initiative and seizing the opportunity. Did you watch the 2006 Italy-Germany semi-final? Germany played very well, but... Of course, Italy played extremely, horrifyingly, badly this cycle, but Germany and all its teamwork didn't do very well either.

I didn't mean to say that Southern Europeans (as an example) are incapable of teamwork(!), just that they form somewhat of a compromise (subconsciously of course) to allow room for more individualism IN THE SENSE of having a person-by-person worldview. So the American view of Sicilians perfectly epitomises this: Sicilians are not individual in the sense of leading somewhat more solitary lives, at all - in terms of social independence, Northern Europeans are of course more individualistic than really any other region. But, to Sicilians, the cogs are more important than the machine. People value the family massively - the cogs nearest to them, so to speak, often to the extent that they'll go more out of their way for "their" cogs even at the expense of other cogs (a Sicilian is more likely to try and push his old grandma to the front of a queue, whereas a Scandinavian would wait in line).

This is all sounding a bit silly - Scandinavians value the machine whereas Sicilians value the cogs - but you get the idea I do think it explains why Scandinavian societies are so successful though, but also why they seem colder.

 

[Tsimiski]

Judgements about the Danish society based on the Law of Jante should be taken with a pinch of salt. Jante is a fictional name for a country side city in southern Denmark called Nykøbing where the author was born, a city he absolutely hated. Also the Law of Jante or Nykøbing was penned in 1933 and much has changed in Denmark during the following 80 years like the 1968 revolution. The Law of Jante is a satire or caricature, a distortion of the Danish society but as with many caricatures contains a grain of truth.

 

[Angela]

Judgements about the Danish society based on the Law of Jante should be taken with a pinch of salt. Jante is a fictional name for a country side city in southern Denmark called Nykøbing where the author was born, a city he absolutely hated. Also the Law of Jante or Nykøbing was penned in 1933 and much has changed in Denmark during the following 80 years like the 1968 revolution. The Law of Jante is a satire or caricature, a distortion of the Danish society but as with many caricatures contains a grain of truth.

Ah, now I get it.

 

[Angela]

I was just reminded that Ibsen's "An Enemy of the People" and Anderson's "The Emperor's New Clothes" show this principal in action. In addition, this conformism, it has been suggested, could explain why the laxity of laws and relatively mild punishments have so far worked in this society: social conformism already ensures that the rules will be obeyed.

Very interesting insights. I think he takes it too far, especially in asserting that the most aggressive and individualistic people emigrated, but it's interesting reading.

https://twitter.com/aClassicLiberal/status/987683915635871744

 

[Gnarl]

As Tsimiski says, the Jante Law was written in 1933. It described a small Danish town that was severely behind the times, in 1933. Kind of a relic Victorian influence that came to the smaller trading towns in Denmark and southern Norway in the late 19th century. And was a stand-in for a small town the author grew up in and despised. It is a codification of attitudes he believed they had, and it is an exaggeration and a parody. It should not be taken as having legal force in the 21st century. Even in 1933 you would have found real attitudes different in most larger towns.

You corroborate my long held belief that the old Webber scheme of northern Europeans as being individualistic is absolutely wrong. They are, in fact, very collectivist. They're just not family oriented, which is a different thing altogether.

I suspect there is an assumption of homogeneity in Scandinavia which does not work in this case. Yes, languages are similar and politics are currently roughly similar in may areas.

But the Denmark of Jante was a small agricultural nation, exceptionally densely populated by Scandinavian standards. It has ten times the population density of Norway and five times Sweden. It has a history of trying to stay out of wars, an aristocracy owning the land, but a wealthy and free peasantry relative to other European nations.

Sweden has 1/5 the population density of Denmark, an aristocracy and I think -not my area- a peasant class that was bound to the land in what was basically serfdom. It has an exceptionally warlike history and was basically a rouge nation for centuries. There were centuries when 30 % of Swedish males died in wars outside Swedens borders.

Norway has 1/10 the population density of Denmark, no aristocracy, no serfdom, little in the way of cities and large towns, and only a small history of tenant farmers. The vast majority of the population owned their own land. In addition to the low population density, the geography is basically a fit of rage. Mountain ranges, glaciers, steep cliffs, rivers, lakes and abyssal fjords. Sometimes in the same square kilometer. Making the effective distance between people much larger than it looks on a map. For 1000 years or longer, males in the coastal regions where most of the population lived, have gone on long seajourneys to provide for the family while the woman has been in charge of the house, the economy and the valuables.

Norway and Sweden has a far, far more hostile climate than Denmark. Norway traditionally looks west, Denmark South and Sweden east.

The behavioral rules applying in a small town in Denmark had little authority over a fisherman/farmer in Northern Norway who lives with his family miles from his next door neighbor. Or A Swedish Saami reindeer herder. Or a Lutheran priest in an area maybe half the size of Denmark were we did not actually establish firm borders between Russia, Sweden and Norway until the 1700s or maybe early 1800s.

That being said, the reason the Jante law is still remembered is because we recognize that it does describe a real Scandinavian trait. I would say, in much the same way as Americans recognize the "ugly American tourist" stereotype as relevant without actually being one.

But the Jante law, at least these days, prescribe how you should display yourself rather than how you should perceive yourself. Excelling in something is absolutely supported. If you are accomplished in one or more areas, you will garner considerable (low-key) respect and approval from other Scandinavians -unless you are seen as bragging about it! It is a very serious social faux pas to act as though you are better, more valuable, smarter or otherwise above your fellow citizens. The best examples of this may be how the royals of Scandinavia behave.

On the subject of HG versus farmer genetics on individualism, I suspect the climate, geography, religion and history of an area has enough power to bury any genetic signal.

 

[Angela]

As Tsimiski says, the Jante Law was written in 1933. It described a small Danish town that was severely behind the times, in 1933. Kind of a relic Victorian influence that came to the smaller trading towns in Denmark and southern Norway in the late 19th century. And was a stand-in for a small town the author grew up in and despised. It is a codification of attitudes he believed they had, and it is an exaggeration and a parody. It should not be taken as having legal force in the 21st century. Even in 1933 you would have found real attitudes different in most larger towns.



I suspect there is an assumption of homogeneity in Scandinavia which does not work in this case. Yes, languages are similar and politics are currently roughly similar in may areas.

But the Denmark of Jante was a small agricultural nation, exceptionally densely populated by Scandinavian standards. It has ten times the population density of Norway and five times Sweden. It has a history of trying to stay out of wars, an aristocracy owning the land, but a wealthy and free peasantry relative to other European nations.

Sweden has 1/5 the population density of Denmark, an aristocracy and I think -not my area- a peasant class that was bound to the land in what was basically serfdom. It has an exceptionally warlike history and was basically a rouge nation for centuries. There were centuries when 30 % of Swedish males died in wars outside Swedens borders.

Norway has 1/10 the population density of Denmark, no aristocracy, no serfdom, little in the way of cities and large towns, and only a small history of tenant farmers. The vast majority of the population owned their own land. In addition to the low population density, the geography is basically a fit of rage. Mountain ranges, glaciers, steep cliffs, rivers, lakes and abyssal fjords. Sometimes in the same square kilometer. Making the effective distance between people much larger than it looks on a map. For 1000 years or longer, males in the coastal regions where most of the population lived, have gone on long seajourneys to provide for the family while the woman has been in charge of the house, the economy and the valuables.

Norway and Sweden has a far, far more hostile climate than Denmark. Norway traditionally looks west, Denmark South and Sweden east.

The behavioral rules applying in a small town in Denmark had little authority over a fisherman/farmer in Northern Norway who lives with his family miles from his next door neighbor. Or A Swedish Saami reindeer herder. Or a Lutheran priest in an area maybe half the size of Denmark were we did not actually establish firm borders between Russia, Sweden and Norway until the 1700s or maybe early 1800s.

That being said, the reason the Jante law is still remembered is because we recognize that it does describe a real Scandinavian trait. I would say, in much the same way as Americans recognize the "ugly American tourist" stereotype as relevant without actually being one.

But the Jante law, at least these days, prescribe how you should display yourself rather than how you should perceive yourself. Excelling in something is absolutely supported. If you are accomplished in one or more areas, you will garner considerable (low-key) respect and approval from other Scandinavians -unless you are seen as bragging about it! It is a very serious social faux pas to act as though you are better, more valuable, smarter or otherwise above your fellow citizens. The best examples of this may be how the royals of Scandinavia behave.

On the subject of HG versus farmer genetics on individualism, I suspect the climate, geography, religion and history of an area has enough power to bury any genetic signal.

Lots of good information. It doesn't pay to generalize too much.

I never thought any such differences in terms of individualism versus collectivism were necessarily genetically determined, much less based on any hunter/farmer split. We're all descended from hunter/gatherers after all. Such things are formed from a myriad of forces.

 

[arctangent]

Janteloven, while satire as has already been mentioned a few times, definitely also speaks to a Scandinavian (along with other collectivist) humility: even if you do great things, even if they advance the community, stay humble and don't get a big head.