4000BP Iberian farmer clusters with Tuscans, not Basque or Early European farmers

[epoch]

The shared genetic drift of Skoglund shows something remarkable: Tuscans have less shared drift with Gokhem2 than their surroundings. And they show less affinity with Swedish HG's than Sardinians.

 

[giuseppe rossi]

Obviously he was a recent intruder from the East.

Neolitich farmers who lived in El Trocs (c. 5100 BC) still resembled modern Sardinians in the genome wide analysis.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

It is surprising though that Portalon clusters with Tuscans

Bear in mind the physical geography of Spain where you have some rivers draining into the med and some draining into the Atlantic. In particular the med draining Ebro. Although Portalon is near the Basques as the crow flies it is in the Ebro valley i.e. on the other side of the water table cutting through Iberia.

http://www.mapshop.com/classroom/Foreign-Language-Maps/EDI412Phy-over.jpg

 

[Angela]

I don't think that a speculation that he is "eastern" admixed is out of line. Whether this is some sort of early diffusion west of "Indo-Europeans" I don't know. It is interesting in that regard that Tuscans can probably be modeled as Sardinians to which you add an "Indo-European" component.

Nor do I know if this has anything to do with the culture that built La Bastida, the Bronze Age fortress in Murcia. There are tantalizing hints that there are similarities with one of the levels at Troy, and the culture certainly exhibits marked differences with the prior Neolithic cultures of Europe.

This is an article that gives a general overview of a 2012 paper:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-09/uadb-lb092712.php

There is a more recent 2014 academic study on the subject:
[h=3]the la Bastida fortification: new light and new questions on early Bronze Age societies in the western mediterranean[/h]V Lull, R Micó, C RIHUete, R Risch - Antiquity, 2014

You can find a link to the PDF on this page:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=La+Bastida,+Murcia&hl=en&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=0,33

 

[MOESAN]

all of us let's keep in mind 4000 BP or 2000 BC is NO MORE NEOLITHIC: it's ENEOLITHIC OR CHALCOLITHIC (copper) in West - and BRONZE in East and at this time Spain was since long time a oftenly visited country for metals prospectors and even metallurgists cultures settlements - what said the paper about archeology: sepulture, domestic and Cy???

 

[Greying Wanderer]

I don't think that a speculation that he is "eastern" admixed is out of line. Whether this is some sort of early diffusion west of "Indo-Europeans" I don't know. It is interesting in that regard that Tuscans can probably be modeled as Sardinians to which you add an "Indo-European" component.

Nor do I know if this has anything to do with the culture that built La Bastida, the Bronze Age fortress in Murcia. There are tantalizing hints that there are similarities with one of the levels at Troy, and the culture certainly exhibits marked differences with the prior Neolithic cultures of Europe.

This is an article that gives a general overview of a 2012 paper:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-09/uadb-lb092712.php

There is a more recent 2014 academic study on the subject:
the la Bastida fortification: new light and new questions on early Bronze Age societies in the western mediterranean

V Lull, R Micó, C RIHUete, R Risch - Antiquity, 2014

You can find a link to the PDF on this page:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=La+Bastida,+Murcia&hl=en&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=0,33

If there was pressure from IE or PIE it might set off a kind of avalanche effect with people from the Balkans / east med moving west - or completely separate from that and simply related to all the precious metal in Iberia.

 

[MOESAN]

"avalanche" = fleeing - why not? but the other Greying Wandering's hypotehsis about precious metal in Iberia could be sufficient:
I have not red yet entirely the La Bastida story (I read slowly on a screan) but I remember that in El Argur culture sites, since 2200 BC appeared the first individual sepultures (or their generalization, sometimes with a second person inhumed) under tumulus, replacing the collective sepultures of old times, with dead people inhumed into big urns, and this mode of sepulture was very common during Bronze Age in Near Eastern and, very rarely, in Bohemia, where it could be of foreign origin (I recall the Unetice Culture, later, shew also what could considered as a patchwork of cultures, where diverse influences were not always completely smelt one together) - so people come from East in Iberia at bronze Age, surely, not only artefacts, for I think -
fleeing is possible, nevertheless: some pertirbations at these dates - 2200 BC: brutal end of Los MIllares culture complex and destruction of Troia II in East...

 

[Greying Wanderer]

"avalanche" = fleeing - why not? but the other Greying Wandering's hypotehsis about precious metal in Iberia could be sufficient:
I have not red yet entirely the La Bastida story (I read slowly on a screan) but I remember that in El Argur culture sites, since 2200 BC appeared the first individual sepultures (or their generalization, sometimes with a second person inhumed) under tumulus, replacing the collective sepultures of old times, with dead people inhumed into big urns, and this mode of sepulture was very common during Bronze Age in Near Eastern and, very rarely, in Bohemia, where it could be of foreign origin (I recall the Unetice Culture, later, shew also what could considered as a patchwork of cultures, where diverse influences were not always completely smelt one together) - so people come from East in Iberia at bronze Age, surely, not only artefacts, for I think -
fleeing is possible, nevertheless: some pertirbations at these dates - 2200 BC: brutal end of Los MIllares culture complex and destruction of Troia II in East...

Yes, and the two could be related. Sources of copper and tin would naturally become very valuable both in monetary terms and as a resource for war lords so it seems plausible a group from the east might try and grab some of it and once a link is made then people fleeing conflict in the east would more likely to consider fleeing west.

(Possibly even more related in that conflict in the east between a faction that had access to tin or arsenical bronze and factions that didn't might lead a (presumably losing) faction to look for a source of their own.)

But as you say the simple presence of all that metal in Iberia is explanation enough.

edit: some examples from later history might be wood from the Baltic during the age of sail (especially for the British Navy) or oil fields as a strategic target during WWII. Sources of copper, tin and copper/arsenic would be the oil fields of the bronze age, strategically speaking.

 

[MOESAN]

it's late and I'm tired so I want not loose more time to search a thread where to put this modest link- but as we are sepaking here about old Iberia, and that ancient Y-R1b have been discoverd there, outside or common dominant R1B, I put here my link about V88 (if I'm not wrong it's a theory about an iberian geogrpahic origin of R-V88, surprising at first sight

1. [h=3]Y Chromosome Haplogroup R1b-V88 - Academia.edu[/h]