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Thread: New dedicated page for Y-haplogroup N1c

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    OK, that I agree. I think Comb Ware brought now extinct N lines to East Baltics, those lines that survived probably arrived to Finland later. Net Ware or post Net Ware.
    That can not be assumed until we have samples from neolithic finland. We already know that N1c was present in western russia 5k years ago though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nordic View Post
    That can not be assumed until we have samples from neolithic finland. We already know that N1c was present in western russia 5k years ago though.
    It cant be proven, but it can be assumed. Main modern Finnic lines have age estimates of having TMRCA of 1000 bce or later. So, whatever N lines were there before, they got replaced by expanding ones after 1000 bce.
    Of course if age estimates are correct.

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    Hi evryone! Can anyone tell me where and when N1a1a1a1 (P298) originated and where it is likly to find it today?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordas View Post
    Hi evryone! Can anyone tell me where and when N1a1a1a1 (P298) originated and where it is likly to find it today?


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    Hello Ordas,

    P298, also known as M2126 is the father clade of L1026 and M2019. L1026 makes up the vast majority of N1c in Europe while M2019 is much more rare. If your paternal line is Hungarian you are probably either M2783 which is Baltic or L1034 which was brought to Hungary with the Magyars. With that being said there is a branch of M2019 which has been found in Hungary although IMO it is unlikely that is your branch.

    If you’ve tested with FtDNA I recommend you join the N North Eurasia project for more details or take another test to get more resolution.

    Edit: I apologize, I have just seen your other posts. If you really are M2019 and L1026 negative I would highly recommend you take another YDNA specific test as you probably belong to a highly divergent unknown branch.

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    Thank you for your answer. I tested with Living DNA. They don't provide their negative maches, so I'm not sure about that. I think I will join some ftDNA project in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontyK View Post
    Hello Ordas,

    P298, also known as M2126 is the father clade of L1026 and M2019. L1026 makes up the vast majority of N1c in Europe while M2019 is much more rare. If your paternal line is Hungarian you are probably either M2783 which is Baltic or L1034 which was brought to Hungary with the Magyars. With that being said there is a branch of M2019 which has been found in Hungary although IMO it is unlikely that is your branch.

    If you’ve tested with FtDNA I recommend you join the N North Eurasia project for more details or take another test to get more resolution.

    Edit: I apologize, I have just seen your other posts. If you really are M2019 and L1026 negative I would highly recommend you take another YDNA specific test as you probably belong to a highly divergent unknown branch.
    Could you, or enyone here tell me which snp-s should be tested for further details?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordas View Post
    Could you, or enyone here tell me which snp-s should be tested for further details?


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    Just for the understanding: is it necesary to have all the snp-s in the picture to be in this subclade , or are these just different names for the same snp? I'm just not sure I got it right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    OK, that I agree. I think Comb Ware brought now extinct N lines to East Baltics, those lines that survived probably arrived to Finland later. Net Ware or post Net Ware.
    How would you explain the distribution of R1a and N within Latvia? The research was carried out by the University of Latvia, but I can't seem to find it anywhere online right now.

    Long story short, R1a correlates with Livonian speaking areas with peaks in Northern Courland, which is mind-boggling and completely counter-intuitive in respect to the traditional understanding of N as being Finnic and R1a as being Baltic. N peaked in Eastern Latvia as well. It 'should' be the other way around.

    Could we be talking about a language shift here? Could Livonians actually be much more recent newcomers? Could they possibly be Finnicized Balts/Slavs? Or, more conservatively, is it just a massive bottleneck effect at work? If it's the latter and the effects of the 17th century plague on the Latvian genome are so huge, it really puts things into perspective.

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    I remember that study.
    Estonians when compared to East Balts (both LV and LT) have less N %, somewhat more R1a %, increased I1 %.
    In former Livonian areas it is similar-ish.
    So, my take was historical Livonians were genetically pretty much like Estonians.

    And another take - N in Balts had very little to do with Livonians.

    Possibly it had to do with some other guys, maybe Selonians. At least former Selonian regions have elevated Baltic N %. Lithuanian NE and Latvian East.

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    No, I believe the R1a rate was much higher when compared to Estonia. And the I1 part is a topic worth a separate discussion.
    Vagoth/Gotlander settlements along the Baltic coast, as well as in Courland and the Estonian isles seem to have been permanent. Hybrid Curonian/Gotlander cultures and the West-East I1 gradient are all indicative of that. There's also a clear Norse influence on Livonians.

    I don't buy the part about Selonians. It's more likely there were several waves of N migrations towards the Baltic area. But the general share of N is quite similar throughout the Baltics.

    It does look like most of Northern Courland was wiped out during the Northern War, though. 99% of the Livonian population there perished. That would probably do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    No, I believe the R1a rate was much higher when compared to Estonia. And the I1 part is a topic worth a separate discussion.
    Vagoth/Gotlander settlements along the Baltic coast, as well as in Courland and the Estonian isles seem to have been permanent. Hybrid Curonian/Gotlander cultures and the West-East I1 gradient are all indicative of that. There's also a clear Norse influence on Livonians.

    I don't buy the part about Selonians. It's more likely there were several waves of N migrations towards the Baltic area. But the general share of N is quite similar throughout the Baltics.

    It does look like most of Northern Courland was wiped out during the Northern War, though. 99% of the Livonian population there perished. That would probably do it.
    Where would they get that mass R1a from then? After Northern War? From Poland or Russia to Northern Curonia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    No, I believe the R1a rate was much higher when compared to Estonia. And the I1 part is a topic worth a separate discussion.
    Vagoth/Gotlander settlements along the Baltic coast, as well as in Courland and the Estonian isles seem to have been permanent. Hybrid Curonian/Gotlander cultures and the West-East I1 gradient are all indicative of that. There's also a clear Norse influence on Livonians.

    I don't buy the part about Selonians. It's more likely there were several waves of N migrations towards the Baltic area. But the general share of N is quite similar throughout the Baltics.

    It does look like most of Northern Courland was wiped out during the Northern War, though. 99% of the Livonian population there perished. That would probably do it.
    Source for higher N in Selonia is because of Votians, who were captured during Livonian Order wars against Novgorod, and as a 3000 POW Votians(Rüsche/Krieviņi) were settled near Bauska in 1445 in empty lands, who were ravaged by Lithuanians. Selonia is also least populated region, so that's a huge number of population for that era. 3000 is ~1% for whole population in borders of Latvia in 15th century, so in Selonia alone that % changed by 10 times more.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreevins

    Entry point of Livonians to modern Latvia territory is from Saaremaa around 6-8th century.
    If we compare 12. century map with major settlements, then there are ~60 Curonian and ~10 Livonian settlements of whom at least half of Livonian settlements falls in shared area with Curonians. Not to mention, that Livonians diluted their y-dna when they went through Estonia, why would anyone expect some high N in Courland? Especially, if there is idea, that Curonians inhabited Saaremaa during their maximum extent.
    https://uzd-resources.azureedge.net/...r114-w1200.jpg
    Curonians expelled Livonians to eastern side of Riga bay around 8th century, where Semigallians were living before.



    The reason for N higher in Eastern Latvia is because of influx of Proto-Latvians-Lithuanians, who migrated towards West around 5-6th century, because of new migrant Slavic pressure and ancestors of ancient Proto-Latvians-Lithuanians were in closer proximity to Finnic for longer time, than rest of ancient Baltic tribes. That is where most of N in Lithuania and Latvia is coming from and not from Livonians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...rope_3-4cc.png
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...rope_5-6cc.png


    There is observation of N spread in Kievan Rus from Novgorod, but it doesn't have much to do with modern Baltic people, who were not part of Kievan Rus.

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    Nah, not Votians... there is no reason to believe those guys had N lines under L1025, M2783 (where they come from L550 and Estonian-ish N lineages should be more common), which is what you notice in big concentrations NE Lithuania (Aukstaitija, Selonian LT part, btw ‘Saali’ in Livonian means highlanders, just like ‘Aukstaitians’ later in Lithuanian).

    It is more likely proto-East Balts encountered and absorbed N from previous population (Pre-Selonians) right there in NE Lithuania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Where would they get that mass R1a from then? After Northern War? From Poland or Russia to Northern Curonia?
    A Swedish naval blockade basically genocided the entire coastal Livonian population in Courland. Imagine entire communities dead, with literally no or just a few survivors. It was a huge surprise for me as I researched it, since none of this is well-known or included in school curriculums. An outbreak of plague combined with a naval blockade really changed the genetic landscape in Latvia.

    These territories experienced a massive bottleneck effect. The surviving individuals were so few and far apart, they didn't represent the previous/original genetic reality. It's just a random effect, pure chance. Nothing to do with Poles or Russians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laint View Post
    Source for higher N in Selonia is because of Votians, who were captured during Livonian Order wars against Novgorod, and as a 3000 POW Votians(Rüsche/Krieviņi) were settled near Bauska in 1445 in empty lands, who were ravaged by Lithuanians. Selonia is also least populated region, so that's a huge number of population for that era. 3000 is ~1% for whole population in borders of Latvia in 15th century, so in Selonia alone that % changed by 10 times more.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreevins

    Entry point of Livonians to modern Latvia territory is from Saaremaa around 6-8th century.
    If we compare 12. century map with major settlements, then there are ~60 Curonian and ~10 Livonian settlements of whom at least half of Livonian settlements falls in shared area with Curonians. Not to mention, that Livonians diluted their y-dna when they went through Estonia, why would anyone expect some high N in Courland? Especially, if there is idea, that Curonians inhabited Saaremaa during their maximum extent.
    https://uzd-resources.azureedge.net/...r114-w1200.jpg
    Curonians expelled Livonians to eastern side of Riga bay around 8th century, where Semigallians were living before.



    The reason for N higher in Eastern Latvia is because of influx of Proto-Latvians-Lithuanians, who migrated towards West around 5-6th century, because of new migrant Slavic pressure and ancestors of ancient Proto-Latvians-Lithuanians were in closer proximity to Finnic for longer time, than rest of ancient Baltic tribes. That is where most of N in Lithuania and Latvia is coming from and not from Livonians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...rope_3-4cc.png
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...rope_5-6cc.png


    There is observation of N spread in Kievan Rus from Novgorod, but it doesn't have much to do with modern Baltic people, who were not part of Kievan Rus.
    Can you please elaborate your obscure theory on the emergence of Livonians? It's generally accepted they have been inhabiting Courland since the Bronze age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    Can you please elaborate your obscure theory on the emergence of Livonians? It's generally accepted they have been inhabiting Courland since the Bronze age.

    Well, you are confused about these things:

    It is generally accepted, that Uralics reached and inhabitated Courland in Bronze Age. And that the first Uralics in Baltic were most probably Saami people.

    Livonians are not that old to be there from Bronze Age... not to mention that it would require some explanation about center of emergence of Finnish languages and Courland is far from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Nah, not Votians... there is no reason to believe those guys had N lines under L1025, M2783 (where they come from L550 and Estonian-ish N lineages should be more common), which is what you notice in big concentrations NE Lithuania (Aukstaitija, Selonian LT part, btw ‘Saali’ in Livonian means highlanders, just like ‘Aukstaitians’ later in Lithuanian).

    It is more likely proto-East Balts encountered and absorbed N from previous population (Pre-Selonians) right there in NE Lithuania.
    Let me repeat again:
    Source for higher N in Selonia is because of Votians

    Nowhere else I mentioned, that ALL of N comes from Votians.
    Selonians and Aukstaitians basically ceased to exist after Letts-Leits moved in. Unlike Selonians, who have limited cultural and even linguistical differences from Letts and the main one is only name, Aukstaitians were completelly absorbed and are considered Lithuanians where Aukstaitians are synonym for Lithuanians.

    There were many people who had Votian roots thorough Selonia - most prominent is Rainis. Krieviņi in Selonia were not even marginal group - it is the problem of today that population has amnesia about anything preWW2.

    There was also large population of Estonians/Seto in eastern Latvia, which started to assimilate into Latvians only during first republic of Latvia. So, those N sources are different:
    more recent Estonian-ish, Komi-Mari-Mordvian that were brought with Letts/Leits and the ones that absorbed in preLatvian Baltic population were probably more proto-Saamic.

    Y‐Chromosomal Lineages of Latvians in the Context of the Genetic Variation of the Eastern‐Baltic Region
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ahg.12130

    Kasperaviciute et al. (2004) found differences in the variance of the N1c Y‐STR between Baltic‐ and Finno‐Ugric‐speakers of the region: the 15 repeat STR marker DYS19 was more frequent in Lithuanians (93%) and Latvians (80.6%), whereas the same variant was significantly (p ≤ 0.05) less frequent among Estonians (25.0%), and even less so among Finns (9.3%). In contrast, among Estonians and Finns a 14 repeat allele was more frequent (60.0% and 86.0%, respectively) (Kasperaviciute et al., 2004; Lappalainen et al., 2008). The Td estimate of 8000 years for hg N1c1a among Latvian lineages was found to be similar to those proposed for the Lithuanian and Estonian hg N1c carriers (Kasperaviciute et al., 2004). Our detailed analysis of the Latvian Y‐chromosomal gene pool supports the previously stated idea (Zerjal et al., 1997; Kasperaviciute et al., 2004; Lappalainen et al., 2008) that observed differences of hg N1c haplotype variants between the Baltic‐ and Finno‐Ugric‐speaking populations could indicate that two migration waves have introduced hg N1c founder haplotypes (“Baltic” and “Fennoscandian”) to the Eastern coast of the Baltic Sea.
    Last edited by laint; 29-12-18 at 18:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    Can you please elaborate your obscure theory on the emergence of Livonians? It's generally accepted they have been inhabiting Courland since the Bronze age.
    What Bronze Age?
    Baltic BA samples from Kivutkalns (-1000; -200 BCE) cover several centuries and are 100% R1a and very similar to that Lithuanian BA sample that was also R1a, and looked pretty much like ancestor of modern Balts.

    Later we have Baltic IA sample from North Lithuanian Barrow Culture (200-500 AD) with the correct N (L-1025) to be among direct N grandpas of modern Balts.

    The Baltic IA sample autosomally looked like 3 parts Lithuanian plus 1 part FU Erzya folk. Apparently not that long time ago his grandparents arrived from around Volga.
    Modern Balts autosomally look like mostly descending from Lithuanian BA sample, with some admixture from EHG and farmers.

    So, in my head it goes like this until new data:
    1) post CW folk similar to Kivutkalns living in East Baltic (NW IE? North Baltic? West Baltic?)
    2) arrival of Ananino - Malar axes that coincides with demise of Kivutkalns center. That would be arrival of FU folk, careers of N1c L1025 among others. That is around -500;0 AD.
    3) and then push North (North - West) by East Balts that were pretty much Lithuanian BA like folk. That is around 0-700 AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    A Swedish naval blockade basically genocided the entire coastal Livonian population in Courland. Imagine entire communities dead, with literally no or just a few survivors. It was a huge surprise for me as I researched it, since none of this is well-known or included in school curriculums. An outbreak of plague combined with a naval blockade really changed the genetic landscape in Latvia.

    These territories experienced a massive bottleneck effect. The surviving individuals were so few and far apart, they didn't represent the previous/original genetic reality. It's just a random effect, pure chance. Nothing to do with Poles or Russians.
    That would explain only bottleneck of Livonian population, but not influx of R1a in Livonians. Most probably R1a comes from earlier assimilation of Curonians done by Livonians. Not to mention, that part of Livonian R1a comes from venturing through Estonia, which during Livonian traversing had much more R1a and probably some of that population also was speaking Baltic. Livonians did a lot of assimilations and some of them are well documented - like it was with mixed population of Koknese. Most of assimilations done by Livonians are not documented and there is no need to assume, that Livonian spread was in empty lands or that Livonian arrival was followed with genocide of locals. Anyway - all of areas Livonians settled in Latvia was settled by someone else already.

    PS If you are refering to Northern War, then the main issue was bubonic plague. Basically does not even come close to "for sure", because rest of territory in Latvia was depopulated in similar proportions - do some proper research first and you could visit something much further from coast, like castle of Dobele, that has a very nice story about owners and daughters, who were few survivors in that area. There were naval blockades in Crimean war, too and basically they did not had that devastating impact on local population you are trying to paint.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Re:
    Votians :) do you think they had higher percent of N than Estonians? Maybe they made percent of N lower than higher.

    Repeat it again :) but this time if you could back it up by facts (y-dna N proportion in survives Votians population or in genetic tests for folk with Krievins surname)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Re:
    Votians :) do you think they had higher percent of N than Estonians? Maybe they made percent of N lower than higher.

    Repeat it again :) but this time if you could back it up by facts (y-dna N proportion in survives Votians population or in genetic tests for folk with Krievins surname)
    Let me use your words:
    There is no reason to believe
    © that Votians of 13th century should have less N y-dna, than modern Latvians in those regions. And if you are asking for me to back up data, maybe you should do it first by providing data that does back up your faulty logic about Selonians.


    To be fair, that research did not specify Selonia, but only Semigallia, however from coordinates given for Semigallia, it also included western part of Selonia. And Bauska and that western part of Selonia was main receiver of Votes.
    Here is what you probably don't realize:
    1. Livonians had much higher N share than mainland Estonia, because Livonians took Sea route, where they did not need to mingle with mainland locals with high R1a share.
    Main mixing for Livonians happened in Courland.
    Livonian count was smaller than Curonians.
    Lots of Livonians were expelled by Curonians.
    Max N that comes from Livonians(along with Southern Estonians) in Latvian is less than 20%(of all N in Latvia).
    2. Western Balts(Curonians and Selonians) initially had minimal % of N. Probably none at all.

    Also, Semigallia is rather bad egg, because of history that had regular expulsions of original population in 13th century. Most of central Semigallia had to be repopulated by Semigallians and Selonians of Eastern Semigallia and later there was also heavy influx of Livonians around Jelgava. Most probably before these events R1a might have been at the same high levels comparable to other Western Balts. The fact that it has such high N % nowadays is mainly because of Livonians. And settling Votes in Eastern Semigallia added more N % share as well and without them it might have been similar to Courland.


    Research mentioned these N1c lineages:
    15 repeat STR marker DYS19 Lithuanians 93% ; Latvians 80.6%, Estonians 25% Finns 9.3% - this variation is not coming from Estonia, but from mixed Latvian-Lithuanian ancestry
    14 repeat allele Estonians 60%; Finns 86% - this variation is Finnish-Estonian-Livonian-Votian
    others Estonians 15%; Finns 4% - probably Saami is main source
    it doesn't mean, that all others were present in Latvia already and is not brought by those 2 biggest groups as a ride-along.

    Nah, not Votians... there is no reason to believe those guys had N lines under L1025, M2783 (where they come from L550 and Estonian-ish N lineages should be more common), which is what you notice in big concentrations NE Lithuania (Aukstaitija, Selonian LT part, btw ‘Saali’ in Livonian means highlanders, just like ‘Aukstaitians’ later in Lithuanian).
    This doesn't collerate with data in paper - Lithuanian N1c have almost exclusivelly one source with 93% of that DYS19 marker and Lithuanian N1c is not from Estonia :P

    Possibly it had to do with some other guys, maybe Selonians.
    I do not think you have actual idea, what Selonians were. They were native population of this region and could not be any source for N. All the N they had, they received from later influx of population.

    Selonians + Aukstaitians = Highlanders
    Semigallians + Zemaitians = Lowlanders
    Lowlanders + (assimilated Daugava and Gauja Lowlanders) + Highlanders + (assimilated Daugava right bank Highlanders) + (assimilated Estonian Highlanders) = East branch of West Balts.
    All their N at best might have been from Saami ancestry. And most of N of Selonians and Aukstaitians comes from later influx of Latvians-Lithuanians. And there is no better picture, than those Lithuanian 93% DYS19 among N1c, that proves that main source for N1c in Latvian and Lithuanian populations comes from arrival of Latvians-Lithuanians.

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    So, you don’t have data that is so sad.

    But we have some ancient dna, so maybe we can get somewhere:)

    First N1c of Baltic type (Baltic_IA) so far was found in Northern Lithuania 200-500 AD (NLBC culture). It had foreign autosoms, best approximated with modern populations as 3 parts modern Lithuanian and one part Erzya.
    Before 0 AD (but after CW) all ancient samples from Baltics found so far were 100% R1a and pretty much modern Balts autosomally. So, some Erzya like L1025 men brought it there. Their journey must have started somewhere near Volga.

    This NLBC culture participated in genesis of both later Semigalians and Selonians. Selonians initially were NE Lithuanian folk (modern Baltic N hotspot). Selonians must have been (or become) a mixed culture since their ethnonym is Finnic (highlanders), but their hillforts and leaders in historical times have already Baltic names (i.e. Selpils).

    If Tarand graves (culture that is clearly Baltic Finns) new research brings up N folk that autosomally look exactly like Baltic_IA, then the case is settled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordas View Post
    Hi evryone! Can anyone tell me where and when N1a1a1a1 (P298) originated and where it is likly to find it today?


    Gesendet von meinem SM-G903F mit Tapatalk
    MontyK is wrong there - it has nothing to do with Baltic, as Baltic actually have Finnic and Mari N1a(I'm still getting over my failure of posting wallpaper with all that information, that I tried to post earlier) and are children branches, that branched off this clades children branch along with the ones found in Chukci and Yakuts. Anyway, I am not much help there as well.

    My wild guess is that it was one of truly Magyar N1a, that migrated all the way from Southern Urals to Pannonia. But I would assume, that you might have N1a1a1a1b2-A9408 or something else, as my Genographic project v2(the reason I choose it, because it offered right to delete all my data from there and anonymity) sent me, that I was N1a1-M46/Page70/Tat and in reality it is something down the line... but yeah, for me that information was all I needed anyway,as I don't have that much options to choose in the region of my ancestors anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    So, you don’t have data that is so sad.

    But we have some ancient dna, so maybe we can get somewhere:)

    First N1c of Baltic type (Baltic_IA) so far was found in Northern Lithuania 200-500 AD (NLBC culture). It had foreign autosoms, best approximated with modern populations as 3 parts modern Lithuanian and one part Erzya.
    Before 0 AD (but after CW) all ancient samples from Baltics found so far were 100% R1a and pretty much modern Balts autosomally. So, some Erzya like L1025 men brought it there. Their journey must have started somewhere near Volga.

    This NLBC culture participated in genesis of both later Semigalians and Selonians. Selonians initially were NE Lithuanian folk (modern Baltic N hotspot). Selonians must have been (or become) a mixed culture since their ethnonym is Finnic (highlanders), but their hillforts and leaders in historical times have already Baltic names (i.e. Selpils).

    If Tarand graves (culture that is clearly Baltic Finns) new research brings up N folk that autosomally look exactly like Baltic_IA, then the case is settled.
    My previous effort to post wallpaper failed, so I will be very brief(kinda).

    1. Most of data was before y-dna became thing. I really need to save those links, but recently I've read paper, where Russians identified tribe, that was culturally Uralic, but spoke Baltic, so y-dna data even today can't be used to identify culture or language - it can only identify ancestry.

    2. I know, that is common mistake - maybe even I made it some time ago, but looking on map helps a lot. Erzya are in blue - in East, so it is impossible, that Baltic had any parts of Erzya(this is rather naming problem and I think Mari is proper name for that):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M...rdovia_map.svg

    I don't think, that Baltic had any parts of Moksha either. I do remember that theory about Mordvian link, but for years it has irked me about Mari people how similar their ethnography was to Latvians.


    3. Selonians are sibling-nation to Semigallians - depending on perspective it can be said that Selonians are eastern Semigallians. Most probably before arrival of Letts they were undistinguishable from each other. They never mixed with Finnic people - archeology does not show that. What it shows is that Selonians were influenced a lot by Letts, so their N1a comes from them. If you are interested in Selonians, there were some archeological digging done in prewar Latvia on right bank of Daugava - not to mention linguistical substrate of Selonians in Vidzeme.

    3a. Also what a silly concept, that if Selonians had Livonian name, therefore they mixed with them. Same with Latvians actually - but surprise, surprise - they differ from Estonian N1a. I mean we established that already.
    Curonians have Latin name(corsare - seamen), but it is known that Curonians were related to Prussians and there is no hint that they had any ties to Romanians.

    4. Modern Latvians were released from serfdom only in late 19th century - that's where comes idea, that all of them lived there from immemorial times and they think, that they can trace their ancestry to ancient tribes. That is a big lie - most of modern Latvian ancestry comes from Letts, as they settled in territories of ancient tribes that were wiped out. Only Letts did not fought against Germans - Curonians were wiped out, and many of them went and created Samogitia with Zemaitians and Semigallians. Selonians were not numerous and they were already assimilated by Letts before Germans arrived. So, even if Curonians and Semigallians were mainly R1a, wars and creation of Livonia shuffled people around. By 15th century there were no more ancient tribes of previous folks, but only one - Lett tribe with dialectial variations in language, where even Latgalian "language" had this influence from Nieder-Saxons, as it has bērns - same word that Scots received as bairn from Saxons.

    5. I don't think, that autosomal genes work like that... You know, for example, if you import some dude from Africa, his descendants will have same autosomal genes that other people around them have. This is the reason why Uralic people in Europe look European and not Chinese, even if they originated from China. Because very important part of autosomal genes comes from BOTH parents, so the reason why you look similar to locals is that your paternal ancestors were taking local women as wives. To be fair, it takes 3 generations at max to water out any difference in your exotic ancestry - I know from my own diverse ancestors on mother side. So, this goes both ways.
    Autosomal genes work the same as mixing liquid:
    1st generation has 50% of both parent genes.
    2nd generation will have only 1/4 or 25% of nonlocal autosomal genes
    3rd generation will have 1/8
    4th will have ~6%
    5th will have 3%
    6th ~1.5%
    7th 0.8%
    8th 0.3%
    I would stop at 3rd generation to allow claim native ancestry in America for non native people... even if they threaten to sue someone in court
    Last edited by laint; 27-02-19 at 22:45.

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    1) did not get your argument
    2) update yourself on autosomes. When something can be modeled as 1/4 Erzya, 3/4 Lithuanian. It is not meant to be taken literally. It just shows you direction from where part of people that were later assimilated into Semigallians arrived. Letts arrived much later.
    3) you seem to miss the main point - N was found in Semigall/Selonian ancestor population. The only tested sample from them. But you keep repeating that N arrived with Letts later :)))
    4) no, you are wrong. The myth of “wiped out” is equal to myth of “did not mix”. Of course they mixed and of course part of genes can be traced back to ancient tribes.
    5) That is what I am saying, that N guy, one of ancestors of later Semigall, Samogitian, Selonian people was apparently descendant of some not yet fully diluted migrants from somewhere around Volga, perhaps Finnic speakers originally. Later his ancestry got diluted when more East Balts arrived from somewhere South East of Baltics.

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