New dedicated page for Y-haplogroup N1c

[Maciamo]

To complete the series of pages about major haplogroup in Europe, here is Haplogroup N1c.

[Ha-Nasr]

awesome work maciamo :)

[Fire Haired14]

If Finno-Urgics are of Mesolithic origin in north-east Europe, why is there little evidence of genetic continuum of Karelian and Scandinavian hunter gatherers with modern north-east Europeans and Scandinavians, typical European mtDNA(mainly farmer) in Finno-Urgics, etc. I have not looked deep into the subject of Finno-Urgic origins at all, but i have many initial doubts about a Mesolithic origin because they are defintley not Mesolithic Europeans. Another problem is their light pigmentation which is typical for northern Europeans, most Mesolithic Europeans probably had light eyes but it seems they probably had dark skin and were mainly or entirely dark haired. It is likely in my opinion that north European-pigmentation evolved after or during the Neolithic, so they must have some type of recent common ancestry with other northern Europeans like Irish and Polish.

[Maciamo]

If Finno-Urgics are of Mesolithic origin in north-east Europe, why is there little evidence of genetic continuum of Karelian and Scandinavian hunter gatherers with modern north-east Europeans and Scandinavians, typical European mtDNA(mainly farmer) in Finno-Urgics, etc. I have not looked deep into the subject of Finno-Urgic origins at all, but i have many initial doubts about a Mesolithic origin because they are defintley not Mesolithic Europeans. Another problem is their light pigmentation which is typical for northern Europeans, most Mesolithic Europeans probably had light eyes but it seems they probably had dark skin and were mainly or entirely dark haired. It is likely in my opinion that north European-pigmentation evolved after or during the Neolithic, so they must have some type of recent common ancestry with other northern Europeans like Irish and Polish.

The Mesolithic Uralic people lived between Finland and Siberia, not in the rest of Europe. Mesolithic Europeans were not a single ethnicity. There was the central-northern group associated with Y-DNA I and mtDNA U2, U4, U5 and U8. There were more gracile Mediterranean Europeans who probably were a blend of Y-DNA I2 and E-V13 (+ J2b in the Balkans) and mtDNA H, V, J1c, J2a1, T and U5. There were R1a steppe people with mtDNA U4, U5a, etc. Uralic people were yet another group, but maternally related to the I and R1a populations through haplogroups U4 and U5.

[gyms]

1.There is no evidence that N1c is the "original" Finno-Ugric haplogroup.
2.There is no evidence for Siberian homeland of Finno-Ugric peoples/languages.
3.I-haplogroup (and)subclades are the best candidates for the original Finno-Ugric people.

Accordingly, in the year 8,000 BC, Europe had at least three large linguistic areas: the comparatively unified area of Uralic languages (U), the western area of Basque languages (B) and, in the centre and south of the continent, an area of many unknown small languages (X).

My most decisive claim is that the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages were born under the influence of the Finno-Ugrian languages in the context of a shift in language from Finno-Ugrian to Indo-European.
http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/wiik.htm

HOW FAR TO THE SOUTH IN EASTERN EUROPE DID THE FINNO-UGRIANS
LIVE?
http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA14_23.pdf

[gyms]

"The Mesolithic Uralic people lived between Finland and Siberia, not in the rest of Europe."

How do you know that?Wat about the Lithuaian mesolithic Saami-like skull?

BTW:Where is my previous post?!!

[gyms]

http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA14_23.pdf

[Salbrox]

I think MNOPS peoples are relatively recent (meaning post-Mesolithic) in the region comprising Finland, Karelia and northern Scandinavia. No claims about the languages (though gut feeling says Indo-European and Uralic both were spread by them) as since there's no SNP to tell that I'll leave that matter to professional linguists.

There certainly was a preceding paleo-European language, or multiple such languages, that left a substrate in Saami languages.

[gyms]

"Uralic people were yet another group, but maternally related to the I and R1a populations through haplogroups U4 and U5."

What kind of language have they(U4,U5+I,R1a) communicated?

Communication is a basic behaviour, found across animal species.

[Fire Haired14]

Accident post

[bicicleur]

To complete the series of pages about major haplogroup in Europe, here is Haplogroup N1c.

The spread of N can be traced by the spread of pottery, 20.000 years ago Xienrendong, China, entering Siberia 13000 years ago, entering Europe by Khvalynsk culture 9000 years ago.

Kunda is an offshoot of Swiderian cultures, originating in Poland. They were probably a tribe of haplo I, going extinct after the furhter spread west of haplo N1c till the Baltic and further. (comb-ceramic culture)

2 nd impulse for spread of N1c was Seima-Turbino 2500 years ago, originating in Southern Ural, radiating west till Finland, east till northern China.
If you check ancient Y DNA in northern China you'll notice N1 is still there 6000 years ago, but N1c is absent, coming back only with the bronze age cultures in that area, i.e. after Seima-Turbino.

The Uralic N1c world got destroyed by the Bulgaro-Turk N1b world , 3000 years ago.
Uralic Yakuts had to flee east till lake Bajkal. 700 years ago they were chased up north by Mongols. Now they live in Yakatia surrounded by non-Uralic people.

That is at least the script I figured out for myself for haplo N.
Please check and comment.

[bicicleur]

To complete the series of pages about major haplogroup in Europe, here is Haplogroup N1c.

Maciamo, can you tell me more about Saami haplogroup N1a1a ? Where did you get that info ?

[Salbrox]

The spread of N can be traced by the spread of pottery, 20.000 years ago Xienrendong, China, entering Siberia 13000 years ago, entering Europe by Khvalynsk culture 9000 years ago.

Kunda is an offshoot of Swiderian cultures, originating in Poland. They were probably a tribe of haplo I, going extinct after the furhter spread west of haplo N1c till the Baltic and further. (comb-ceramic culture)

2 nd impulse for spread of N1c was Seima-Turbino 2500 years ago, originating in Southern Ural, radiating west till Finland, east till northern China.
If you check ancient Y DNA in northern China you'll notice N1 is still there 6000 years ago, but N1c is absent, coming back only with the bronze age cultures in that area, i.e. after Seima-Turbino.

The Uralic N1c world got destroyed by the Bulgaro-Turk N1b world , 3000 years ago.
Uralic Yakuts had to flee east till lake Bajkal. 700 years ago they were chased up north by Mongols. Now they live in Yakatia surrounded by non-Uralic people.

That is at least the script I figured out for myself for haplo N.
Please check and comment.

Yakuts are not Uralic, but Turkic. Even further, it's likely that they are turkified aboriginal siberians. Their N1c clade is not derived from the ones that appear in Uralic speakers, and hasn't been found in the Volga-Urals region.

[Fire Haired14]

4,000BP Iberian farmer named Portalon seems to be listed as having Y DNA R-YP265(what SNP is that?) at yfull.com. Also i have heard 17,000BP west Eurasian(primarily or entirely ANE) hunter gatherer from Siberia not to long ago was listed a belonging to Y DNA Q1a at Yfull.com. Based on a PCA Portalon was put into i think he had some ANE ancestry and more middle eastern ancestry than modern Iberians(around as much as north-African admixed west-south Iberians). Maciamo, since you know more about R1b than anyone on this forum how do you interpret R1b(probably Df27) being in Iberia 4,000 years ago? Do you think the arrival of R1b is connected with Portalon's difference between other early European farmers? Do you think his R1b is from early western Indo Europeans or a non-Indo European people?

[bicicleur]

4,000BP Iberian farmer named Portalon seems to be listed as having Y DNA R-YP265(what SNP is that?) at yfull.com. Also i have heard 17,000BP west Eurasian(primarily or entirely ANE) hunter gatherer from Siberia not to long ago was listed a belonging to Y DNA Q1a at Yfull.com. Based on a PCA Portalon was put into i think he had some ANE ancestry and more middle eastern ancestry than modern Iberians(around as much as north-African admixed west-south Iberians). Maciamo, since you know more about R1b than anyone on this forum how do you interpret R1b(probably Df27) being in Iberia 4,000 years ago? Do you think the arrival of R1b is connected with Portalon's difference between other early European farmers? Do you think his R1b is from early western Indo Europeans or a non-Indo European people?

DF27 would be connected with Bell Beaker ??
they would have been families with knowledge about metallurgy transferred from father to son and setting up trading networks ??

[bicicleur]

Yakuts are not Uralic, but Turkic. Even further, it's likely that they are turkified aboriginal siberians. Their N1c clade is not derived from the ones that appear in Uralic speakers, and hasn't been found in the Volga-Urals region.

so i got that wrong
Yakut are N1c Turkified
still they were defeated by the Mongols 700 years ago and fled north from lake Bajkal to Yakutia and sttled among other people with whom they have no ethnical/linguistic connection

[Maciamo]

The spread of N can be traced by the spread of pottery, 20.000 years ago Xienrendong, China, entering Siberia 13000 years ago, entering Europe by Khvalynsk culture 9000 years ago.

Kunda is an offshoot of Swiderian cultures, originating in Poland. They were probably a tribe of haplo I, going extinct after the furhter spread west of haplo N1c till the Baltic and further. (comb-ceramic culture)

2 nd impulse for spread of N1c was Seima-Turbino 2500 years ago, originating in Southern Ural, radiating west till Finland, east till northern China.
If you check ancient Y DNA in northern China you'll notice N1 is still there 6000 years ago, but N1c is absent, coming back only with the bronze age cultures in that area, i.e. after Seima-Turbino.

The Uralic N1c world got destroyed by the Bulgaro-Turk N1b world , 3000 years ago.
Uralic Yakuts had to flee east till lake Bajkal. 700 years ago they were chased up north by Mongols. Now they live in Yakatia surrounded by non-Uralic people.

That is at least the script I figured out for myself for haplo N.
Please check and comment.

Interesting theory. However I have always associated the Seima-Turbino phenomenon with the diffusion of R1a. Seima-Turbino did extent from Finland to Mongolia, but so does R1a today. Actually there is hardly any N1c in the Altai region (0% to 2.5% according to Dullik 2011), not much more in Mongolia (0% of N1c and 6% of N1c1 according to Xue 2006). This contrasts sharply with R1a which is around 50% in the Altai and 12% in Mongolia. It is possible and indeed likely that a minority of N1c1 lineages were assimilated by R1a people in the Volga-Ural region prior to the Seima-Turbino (namely during the Abashevo culture). But the Russian and Altaian core of Seima-Turbino is predominantly R1a.

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, can you tell me more about Saami haplogroup N1a1a ? Where did you get that info ?

Good question. I thought it was on the FTDNA Saami Project or N1c Project but I can't find the data anymore. Perhaps it was a mistake that was corrected. Anyway ISOGG doesn't have any N1a1a. It's surely N1c1a. The FTDNA Saami projects has mant N-M232, but that SNP is also missing in ISOGG. All studies on the Saami date from 2000 to 2006 and don't have N1c subclades.

[Salbrox]

Interesting theory. However I have always associated the Seima-Turbino phenomenon with the diffusion of R1a. Seima-Turbino did extent from Finland to Mongolia, but so does R1a today. Actually there is hardly any N1c in the Altai region (0% to 2.5% according to Dullik 2011), not much more in Mongolia (0% of N1c and 6% of N1c1 according to Xue 2006). This contrasts sharply with R1a which is around 50% in the Altai and 12% in Mongolia. It is possible and indeed likely that a minority of N1c1 lineages were assimilated by R1a people in the Volga-Ural region prior to the Seima-Turbino (namely during the Abashevo culture). But the Russian and Altaian core of Seima-Turbino is predominantly R1a.

Seima-Turbino is recent enough that if it was spread by N1c1 people from Volga region, we should see the N1c1 subclades common in Indo-European and Uralic speakers of Eastern Europe (VL29 and Z1936 are estimated to be 4000-5000 years old) in China and Mongolia, but that isn't the case. Yakuts don't have those clades either.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=211&start=40

[Maciamo]

Seima-Turbino is recent enough that if it was spread by N1c1 people from Volga region, we should see the N1c1 subclades common in Indo-European and Uralic speakers of Eastern Europe (VL29 and Z1936 are estimated to be 4000-5000 years old) in China and Mongolia, but that isn't the case. Yakuts don't have those clades either.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=211&start=40

That's a good point. However all Slavic populations (outside Russia) do have a low percentage of N1c1, typically between 1 and 4%. It is a similar ratio to R1a as in the Altai, so it is very possible that a few percents of N1c1 spread alongside R1a from the Middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age.

[bicicleur]

Interesting theory. However I have always associated the Seima-Turbino phenomenon with the diffusion of R1a. Seima-Turbino did extent from Finland to Mongolia, but so does R1a today. Actually there is hardly any N1c in the Altai region (0% to 2.5% according to Dullik 2011), not much more in Mongolia (0% of N1c and 6% of N1c1 according to Xue 2006). This contrasts sharply with R1a which is around 50% in the Altai and 12% in Mongolia. It is possible and indeed likely that a minority of N1c1 lineages were assimilated by R1a people in the Volga-Ural region prior to the Seima-Turbino (namely during the Abashevo culture). But the Russian and Altaian core of Seima-Turbino is predominantly R1a.

That is true. There is little known about Seima-Turbino. It seems to me there were 2 tribes involved , 1 tribe R1a and another N1c, R1a operating in the south, N1c in the north.
Strange thing is, N1c appears in Northern China after Seima-Turbino and then dissapears again, after spreading bronze metallurgie.
They look like a small elite on horseback and with bronze armor organising and controling societies. The Xiongnu (and Hunnic) warriors might be a legacy from them.

[Nobody1]

Hong Shi et al 2013 has this migration map for Hg N
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0066102.s002




Leaves the question who if anything Turkofied the Yakuts (N1c1-M46);

[Salbrox]

Generally it's understood that Yakuts got their language from Turkic speakers fleeing the Mongols 700 years ago.

Whether they got N1c1 that way too is unknown without ancient DNA from Sakha-Yakutia. As seen in the case of Hungarians, a group can change language without the event leaving a significant Y-DNA signal.

Regardless of whether Yakut N1c1 came from the Baikal during the Mongol invasions or was there before they became Turkic speaking, it diverged from the N1c1 found in Indo-European and Uralic speaking populations of Europe perhaps 7000 years ago, according to the str-calculations done @ molgen. The latter do not have L1355+ or L1356+ which are found in members of Yakut branch and are all L1026+ while Yakut branch is not.

Edit. apparently amateurs are not the only ones who caught onto that. A study published in Russian Journal of Genetic Genealogy (in Russian, "Внутренняя структура якутской ветви гаплогруппы N1c1 Y-хромосомы", Adamov 2014) found what seems to be a defining SNP (M2019) for Yakut branch that separates it from others. All Yakut samples were also M2020+ while other N1c1 clades were not, and there was further substructure with Yakuts splitting into M1933+ and M1991+ branches. Fitting known history, in light of that many unique SNP's and other differences the Yakut branch is not ancestral to more widespread clades but an end to one migratory path like Sub-Saharan R1b-V88.

[bicicleur]

Generally it's understood that Yakuts got their language from Turkic speakers fleeing the Mongols 700 years ago.

Whether they got N1c1 that way too is unknown without ancient DNA from Sakha-Yakutia. As seen in the case of Hungarians, a group can change language without the event leaving a significant Y-DNA signal.

why should they change language while fleeing ?

actualy the whole tribe didn't flee, the tribe got killed and just a few survivors escaped
so a founder effect may have created N1c1

[bicicleur]

Regardless of whether Yakut N1c1 came from the Baikal during the Mongol invasions or was there before they became Turkic speaking, it diverged from the N1c1 found in Indo-European and Uralic speaking populations of Europe perhaps 7000 years ago, according to the str-calculations done @ molgen. The latter do not have L1355+ or L1356+ which are found in members of Yakut branch and are all L1026+ while Yakut branch is not.

Edit. apparently amateurs are not the only ones who caught onto that. A study published in Russian Journal of Genetic Genealogy (in Russian, "Внутренняя структура якутской ветви гаплогруппы N1c1 Y-хромосомы", Adamov 2014) found what seems to be a defining SNP (M2019) for Yakut branch that separates it from others. Fitting known history, in light of that and other differences the Yakut branch is not ancestral to more widespread clades but an end to one migratory path like Sub-Saharan R1b-V88.

7000 years ago ? that means they probably never made it as far west as Europe ?