Haplogroup IJ, the seafarers’ gene? (Entertainment Post)

[26%Neanderthal]

By re-reading my post I actually noticed that the Vikings built sophisticated (not as much as the Phoenician but still advanced) ships that the origianal Irish and Scots did not?

The difference between Vikings and Irish/Scots is the much larger presence of Paleolithic-European I in the Vikings than in the British Isles BEFORE Norman Invasions. This might further strengthen my initial point of IJ.

 

[bicicleur 2]

IMHO the Viking ships originated in Fosna-Hensbacka culture.
They were reindeer hunters (Ahrensberg culture) who transformed themselves into fishermen and sealhunters.
They started sailing the Norwegian Trench and the Norwegian fjords in their kanoes 12000 years ago.
I believe they were haplo I1. 7500 years later they still lived in the fjords. After contact with Indo-Europeans they developped their boats into precursors of the Viking ships.

I don't believe shipbuilding has anything to do with y DNA. It is just being in the right place under the right circumstances.

 

[Nobody1]

Some celt in Ireland/northern France? Some "aryan" in the Caspian Sea? Not come up with modern countries who built their ships after the Minoan/Phoenician and possibly original scandinavian cultures had already been well absorbed into overall western country.

If you find me a group of original R1 Celts in Ireland or Scotland (very sea exposed places) who, without ever coming into significant contact with J2/I2 Mediterraneans or I1 Original Scandinavians, way before the age of the Punic Wars, the Roman Empire and the Norman Invasions, managed to build something as sophisticated as a Phoenician/Carthagenian ship OUT OF NOTHING, then I'd be glad to change my view. Quoting later post-medieval nation really doesn't do that.

Be careful not to find some ships that might prove Phoenician-Celtic contacts (as you know somebody debated Phoenician present in Ireland) because you would end up strenghtening my point.

I am again not going to specify anything to a Hg;
But the Gaulish/Keltic Veneti of Armorica are recorded to have had sophisticated vessels during the Gallic-wars (58-50BC); De Bel.Gal. III/VIII - the Veneti both have a very great number of ships, with which they have been accustomed to sail to Britain, and excel the rest in their knowledge and experience of nautical affairs

However Armorica was on the pos. route of the Phoenician/Punic tin-trades (Strabo/Pliny/Diodorus);

 

[bicicleur 2]

By re-reading my post I actually noticed that the Vikings built sophisticated (not as much as the Phoenician but still advanced) ships that the origianal Irish and Scots did not?

The difference between Vikings and Irish/Scots is the much larger presence of Paleolithic-European I in the Vikings than in the British Isles BEFORE Norman Invasions. This might further strengthen my initial point of IJ.

I wonder how well these Phoenician ships did on the Atlantic or the North Sea , where they came only sporadically

Maybe these ships were not as advanced as they seem

 

[Ha-Nasr]

I heard that they found Phoenician statues in south east Brazil

 

[LeBrok]

We are deviating enormously from the main point of the post.

First of all, we are not talking about modern nations. We are talking about a period in which humans went from having NO SKILL in some field and DEVELOPED IT OUT NOTHING. Basically they went from zero to this:

View attachment 6413
this is a Carthagenian ship.

Modern nations are the consequence of later cultural and economic development , as well as a melting pot of people from different ethnic background. Many great american scientists were Jewish and today Asians top the list of brilliant graduates in American Universities. Their success has more to do with the fact that they were living in a country that fostered scientific research and economic development than the fact that they were Jewish. Had they been living in Soviet Russia, another white country, I doubt they would have achieved such success.

Second, I am not attacking some sort of "sacred superiority" (= Nazi crap) of the "aryans", nor I am I suggesting the superiority of some other "race" (= Counter-Nazi crap), I am just a fella interested in noticing fundamental links of human history and linking them to genetics and paths human followed to understand how it is that we are what we are today. And by the way I am a white man living in Europe with 99,7% european genetic background. My interest is entirely non-personal, I am not one of those who uses genetics for self-fullfilment purposes. I frankly don't need that.

Now my observations lead me to believe that there are certain element of fundamental human development that have affected us all as europeans and that were started by populations different than the indo-eurasians.

One of this is naval engineering and seafaring skills. How many centuries or more would have the Myceneans and the Romans have employed to develop a ship so sophisticated as the one the Phoenician were using already in 1400 BC (not to mention a Carthagenian one) if they hadn't basically copied from Minoans and Carthagenians?

Let's assume a Viking 1700 AD ship was entirely the product of Indo-Eurasians (which might not be true, the original scandinavian I component might have helped if my theory was true - so by doing this comparison I am actually employing an hypothesis that goes against my point and to the advantage of yours). Still do you realized that a Viking ship is way less sophisticated than a Phoenician ship that was built more than 3000 years before?

This

View attachment 6414

was built more than 3000 years LATER than this:

View attachment 6415

After 3000 years the non-mediterreanan Indo-Eurasians still couldn't build a ship as sophisticated as the one the Phoenician/Carghagenia or the Mediterrenean indo-eurasians who copied from them built.

How many years would have they employed if Rome (or the Myceneans) hadn't entirely copied the already sophisticated Carthagenian (or Minoans) one? 4000? 5000? 6000? Without the Chartagenian input into western society through Rome, would have western society be so advanced in naval engeneering as to build ships that would allow spaniards to cross the ocean some 1800 years after the Punic wars? I have somehow strong doubts. If they didn't manage in 3000 years (the Phoenician-Viking Time Gap), why would have they managed in 1800 (the PunicWars-AmericanDiscovery Time Gap)?

Thanks, good compilation and research.

The same identical reasoning could be applied to the Alphabet. The Greek one is derived by the Phoenician one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet)

The latin alphabet derives from the greek and was introduced into Rome by the Etruscans
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet)

And I won't even start with the Arabic Alphabet (we're going even away from J2 into J1 territory here, but still IJ in a sense), without which Galileo, Newton and co would have had to find an entirely different way of doing calculations.

In this case we might want to talk about brilliance of people like phoenicians with substantial J2. Phoenicians were really extraordinary in many regards, and Jews of course. Coming from fertile Crescent they might have had a head start. If one can assume that farming makes people smarter by implementing more competition than among hunter-gatherers. We might also look into ancients with big proportions of E1b1b being extraordinary, as they came from long line of farmers.

Now, if what you are stating is that without the influence of such cultural elements from such populations, the first Indo-Eurasians would have just one day sit at the table and in a matter of two weeks come out with sophisticated ships, alphabets and counting numbers after they didn't develop them for millenia when they were living in the steppes - or even later if you considered Germanic tribes at the time of Rome didn't use an alphabet - then I am afraid your suggestions are not so serious.

Yes, it took a long time to civilise Northern Tribes. I don't remember saying anything about two weeks or coming from nothing. Obviously everything in genetic or technological respect takes rather long time to fruition.

Sure the Indo-Eurasians and all other populations of the world improved naval building and sea-faring skills in modern. Didn't the Japanese have one of the strongest fleet in WWII? Don't the Chinese today have a great navy? Won't emerging countries like Brazil or India build them and probably achieve scientific discoveries while they do so? Sure they will.

That was my point that people surrounded by sea sooner or later will produce sophisticated ships. They don't need to be of certain haplotype.

Now, has this do to with them being J2? No. At that point of history naval engineering had already reached such a sophistication throughout Europe and beyond and knowledge had been spread so much that it really didn't matter anymore.

Now you're confusing me. Could you read the thread title out loud?

We are talking about pre-classical times. We are talking about people who introduced this whole branch of technology out of nothing. My observation is that they were NOT Indo-Eurasian population and that they might have been people coming all from the IJ group.

Why don't you drop the I haplogroup already. Vikings were fairly recent and mainly of IE haplogroups and we have to wait to almost end of first millenium AD to see decent boat of substantial hg I influence. Looks like hg I, being so old, didn't show any interest in seafaring till pretty much recent times.

The only way you can challenge my observation is to find some sophisticated ship built by indo-eurasians who had never come into contact with mediterraneans or original scandinavians. Some celt in Ireland/northern France? Some "aryan" in the Caspian Sea? Not come up with modern countries who built their ships after the Minoan/Phoenician and possibly original scandinavian cultures had already been well absorbed into overall western country.

I'm not historien on shipbuilding. Are you saying that Chinese or Indians borrowed phoenician ship building technology?

If you find me a group of original R1 Celts in Ireland or Scotland (very sea exposed places) who, without ever coming into significant contact with J2/I2 Mediterraneans or I1 Original Scandinavians, way before the age of the Punic Wars, the Roman Empire and the Norman Invasions, managed to build something as sophisticated as a Phoenician/Carthagenian ship OUT OF NOTHING, then I'd be glad to change my view. Quoting later post-medieval nation really doesn't do that.

Let's concentrate on J2. However, in Phoenician concept, how can you be sure that it wasn't the E1b1b being a substantial force in seafaring.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I heard that they found Phoenician statues in south east Brazil

yes and they told phoenician ships came to Cornwall to get tin for their bronze alloys

these stories proved to be false