Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 72

Thread: Finns weren't N but I haplogroup originally

  1. #26
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Not good ones. Certain arguments from modern DNA have had a lot of predictive power. I could show you arguments based on modern DNA that predicted Otzi's haplogroup, and others that predicted that Haplogroup I but not R1b would be found in the European Mesolithic, and still others that C-V20 would be pre-Neolithic in Europe. There's more where that came from as well. Rather than dismissing all arguments from modern DNA, you need to learn which are well-reasoned and which are not.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,846
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,846, Level: 22
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Jean M :
    "Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again."

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    My view is that they were a small group of Mongolian related people at the beginning who constantly mixed with local I people.
    I agree. They were maybe around 50% European 50% Mongoloid by the time the Swedes started colonizing Finland. And due to Swedish admixture now they are 85%-90%(depending on the study used) European.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    I agree. They were maybe around 50% European 50% Mongoloid by the time the Swedes started colonizing Finland. And due to Swedish admixture now they are 85%-90%(depending on the study used) European.
    I doubt that. More like 10-20% Mongoloid, the western uralic males who spread this would have been about 70% White and 30% Mongoloid eurasians like todays western uralic people. Modern day western uralics are not mostly Mongoloid either only those from the central and east are predominately Mongoloid to pure Mongoloid.

    A finnic tribe in Finland on western siberia are only 11 - 39% Mongoloid.

    If you mix a western uralic Finnic ( 11 - 39% Mongoloid) with Caucasian you will produce a closer genetic result like modern day Finns.


    Haplogroup N reaches highest in Ngannasans who have 93% N and Yakuts and Nenets 75% N where caucasoid admixture is non-existant except the Nenets have 54% Caucasian maternal mtDNA.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,846
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,846, Level: 22
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Sweden



    "It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

    http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/FinnoUgricbkgd.html

    "
    For several hundred years, there was a belief that the Sámi and the Finns had a Mongoloid origin. This false belief was due to linguists of the time believing that Finno-Ugric languages had an eastern origin. It was also due to the Finns’ and Sámis’ tendency to have a phenotypic resemblance to the Mongoloids. In actuality, these Mongoloid-like traits do not occur at a higher average rate than they would in other Northern European groups. "
    http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/d...st/genetic.htm
    Last edited by gyms; 13-05-14 at 10:03. Reason: new data

  6. #31
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."
    It is hard to be boat oriented up North where rivers are frozen for half a year.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,846
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,846, Level: 22
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Sweden



    From Poland west to Britain, humans soon found themselves in a marshy land where it was difficult to walk . That began the environmental pressure that promoted a way of life moving about in canoes made from logs.
    This would be the beginning of the boat people. These are the people that appear first to archeologists as the "Maglemose" culture. Remnants of ttheir dugout canoes dating to as much as 10,000 years ago have been found preserved in bogs from Britain to Finland.

    http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/ui-ra-la.html

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

    http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/FinnoUgricbkgd.html

    "
    For several hundred years, there was a belief that the Sámi and the Finns had a Mongoloid origin. This false belief was due to linguists of the time believing that Finno-Ugric languages had an eastern origin. It was also due to the Finns’ and Sámis’ tendency to have a phenotypic resemblance to the Mongoloids. In actuality, these Mongoloid-like traits do not occur at a higher average rate than they would in other Northern European groups. "
    http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/d...st/genetic.htm

    The oldest skulls of Uralic/Finno ugric in western Siberia were both Mongoloid and Mongoloid/Caucasoid.






    Comb-ceramics (3500-2750) - Finno-Ugric peoples, who came from Siberia








    The closest analogy to the skull early Finno-Ugric peoples are found in the burial Fofanova in the Baikal region (6th millennium BC)



    ( Russian translation to English)


    FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY


    There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


    Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

    http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/FinnoUgricbkgd.html

    "
    For several hundred years, there was a belief that the Sámi and the Finns had a Mongoloid origin. This false belief was due to linguists of the time believing that Finno-Ugric languages had an eastern origin. It was also due to the Finns’ and Sámis’ tendency to have a phenotypic resemblance to the Mongoloids. In actuality, these Mongoloid-like traits do not occur at a higher average rate than they would in other Northern European groups. "
    http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/d...st/genetic.htm
    Look what a unreliable article. The person who edited this article was Idda a member from anthroscape who got banned (or maybe they won't the same person, who knows). Don't you see she doesn't get her head right?

    She also said this

    " Though the Sámi do have some Asian genetic influence, at its highest rate it is only 20-30%, which is no higher than the European average. [7] "


    " The Sámi, as well of the Finns, are a very heterogeneous group of people who display a wide range of physical features. While there are some that feature darker Mongoloid-like characteristics, there are others who display very light colored pigments in their skin and hair "

    ----------------

    Real genetic and anthropology data


    The oldest skulls of Uralic/Finno ugric in western Siberia were both Mongoloid and Mongoloid/Caucasoid.



    Comb-ceramics (3500-2750) - Finno-Ugric peoples, who came from Siberia









    The closest analogy to the skull early Finno-Ugric peoples are found in the burial Fofanova in the Baikal region (6th millennium BC)



    ( Russian translation to English)


    FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY


    There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


    Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.[/QUOTE]

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    This is what it said

    "
    There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians.

    Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes.

    This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka.
    "
    Last edited by Gurka atla; 13-05-14 at 23:04.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,846
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,846, Level: 22
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Gurka atla:

    This is what i said
    ......

    And this is what i said:OH MY GOD!

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Gurka atla:

    This is what i said
    ......

    And this is what i said:OH MY GOD!
    What it said not what i said

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,846
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,846, Level: 22
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Sweden



    A few decades ago the family tree of the Finno-Ugrian languages was interpreted as a map showing how the FU peoples wandered to their present homes. Modern archaeology obviously does not support such wide migrations. Also recent loan word research has shown very old Indo-European loanwords especially in Finnish and the westernmost (Finnic) branch, which means that some pre-form of Finnish must have been spoken relatively close to the Baltic Sea already quite early.
    On the other hand, Finnish is certainly related to languages spoken in Middle Russia and West Siberia. This means either that the area of the Finno-Ugrian (Uralic) proto-language has been very wide, reaching perhaps from the Baltic Sea to the Urals, or that we must find alternative explanatory models to account for the spreading of these languages.
    http://www.helsinki.fi/~jolaakso/fufaq.html

  14. #39
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    16-02-14
    Location
    Regina
    Posts
    254
    Points
    1,772
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,772, Level: 11
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a2a1a L233
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: Canada



    There is more diversity of I1 in Finland than anywhere else, second only to Norway and much more than Sweden. There are only two possible routes for a migration into Scandinavia for Mesolithic people, Finland or Denmark, and given our distributions a Denmark migration is highly unlikely. We know I is very old in Europe and there have not been any N finds at all, also if N was older in Finland than I we should see more N spread into Scandinavia and Europe instead of seeing its limit there. I see hapogroup N arriving in the Neolothic with the Pit Comb culture around 3200 B.C., I1 being much much older.

  15. #40
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,349
    Points
    36,275
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,275, Level: 58
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 375
    Overall activity: 32.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    There is more diversity of I1 in Finland than anywhere else, second only to Norway and much more than Sweden. There are only two possible routes for a migration into Scandinavia for Mesolithic people, Finland or Denmark, and given our distributions a Denmark migration is highly unlikely. We know I is very old in Europe and there have not been any N finds at all, also if N was older in Finland than I we should see more N spread into Scandinavia and Europe instead of seeing its limit there. I see hapogroup N arriving in the Neolothic with the Pit Comb culture around 3200 B.C., I1 being much much older.

    I agree for the most
    the Comb-Ceramic people seems have beenphenotypically a mix of roughly caucasoids-mongoloids – based upona scarce panel I think they were already a bit more on the caucasoidor europoid side -

    the mt-DNA of northeastern Europe(about the 4200 BC ? later?) was strongly asiatic by origin, as opposedto the steppic people's one, their nevertheless closer neigbours inSouth -

    I know nothing about their Y-DNA whatis not saying I 've no opinion -
    concerning Finno-Ugric people, if theirfarthest origins are debated (feet in the Keltiminar culture or onlyinfluences from the Keltiminar people ? I think Keltiminar wasrather indo-european, albeit at recent stages, but if we suppose asmany linguists, contacts between ancestors of the Finno-Ugric peopleand the other ancestors of the Indo-Europeans, we are obliged toimagine a contact region somewhere...around Samara ? Kazan ?Surroundings on a band of lands stretching far enough?
    Still about phenotypes, Hungarianscholars thought the ancestors of first Hungarians were a mix ofeuropoid 'cro-magnoids A' (their naming) and Ouralians of mongoloidstock, even if less typical than the East-Asians – their'cro-magnoid A' seems a broadly Est-Baltic type so 'cromagnoid' onthe way of brachycephalization, a kind of reduced 'west-borreby' type(the less brutal)... but these Hungarians were maybe not exactly thesame as the Finns who colonized Europe in North, partial ancestors ofFinns of Finland, Estonia and Lappland (Saami) – today ouralic(finno-ougric) tribes show very different means of looks mixture, andoften enough, this 'east-baltic' type dominates the 'mongoloid' typesin the crossing -
    &: I speak here of the trueeuropoid element in 'east-baltic', strongly affiliated to a« non-brutal, non-brünnoid » 'borreby'– but somereconstructed pictures given in the thread here show also brutalfeatures and too broad cheekbones compared to less broad jaws -


    the today Finland population showgradual clines between West and East, and too, North and South


    as a whole, the mt DNA is strongly« european », being the Y-DN very more variated, andhere again, presenting different %s from West to East (and surelyNorth to South) Y-N is very stronger in East (E : 60 to > 70%vs W : 15-20%), Y-I1 stronger in West (W : 30 to >50% vs E : 15-20%); – the fact that mt-DNA is very often more« autochtonous » than Y-DNA, we can suppose firstdwellers of Finland were predominantly of european hunters-gatherersstock AND AT FIRST ANALYSIS NOT FINNIC SPEAKING (supposed substrataof proto-basque and a proto-satem language in the Saami's finnic,even if Lappland is not exactly the same as Finland story) – thefinnic languages were send from East I suppose at « late neolithic »times according to our more southern criteria, around the 4200/3000BC (here again material culture and language are not easy to link)-the preceding culture of Finland are considered as come from West Askola 9000 BC and Komsa : reindeers hunters of Magdaleanculture from North Germany – I 'm almost sure the Y-N bearerswere finnic speakers, and arrived later than the Y-I1 bearers (theselast giving more mothers to the today population) – the Y-I1quality as concluded surveys is specific enough to Finland and farfrom being an exclusive gift of western Scandinavians orpre-Scandinavians -
    at the beginning of the I-Ean era camethe Battle Axe people from West and South into Finland : notonly cultural loan, but demic moves according to scholars ;surely not overwhelmingly dominant in number ! - an Y-R1aelement + some rare othrs, sure enough, we can say more present in Estonia than inother neigbouring countries-

    Saami present more Y-I1 as a whole evenif they are not so strong as the Osterbothnia region for it – theirphysical type is not homogenous, even if drift augmented somepeculiar features leading to more homogenous aspect - their prototypewould have been in Western Oural regions, between 'east-baltic' and aspecial 'proto-mongoloid type, and they mixed with western Europepopulations of unsure origin (mesolithical N-Spain as farthestorigin?) - all the way, even the majority of their dark hairedindividuals showed a head-hair quality NOT mongoloid -



    I conclude this personal opinionssaying the Baltic people OF TODAY are a mix of Finnic AND finnicizedpeople and Indo-Europeans : the lack of Y-I1 is not a lack ofautosomals which were born by Y-I1 people some time ago – but,the Finns males took at some time the strong side upon the firsthunter-gatherers (not by physical force but by material and weaponsadvantages), before being subjected by I-Eans (Y-R1a dominant) andlearning the proto-baltic language.

    all that roughly said


    In french : « ça vaut ceque ça vaut »...

  16. #41
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-04-14
    Posts
    3
    Points
    1,922
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,922, Level: 12
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 228
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Finland



    Plenty of nonsense in this thread, some sensible opinions (especially from Sparkey), but otherwise lots of fiction written in sub-par English and not surprisingly the content seems to correlate strongly with the language.

    The Finnish I1 predates any known historical "Swedish migration" to Finland, this is easily seen in the fact that the area with most I1 - Satakunta - is almost 100% Finnish speaking (the areas with considerable historical Swedish settlement are still ~5%+ Swedish speaking and have more n1c1 than Satakunta). The Swedish migration to Finland happened much later than what can explain the Finnish I1 and is historically known. "The Swedes" did not "bring" I1 and western genes to "Mongoloid Finns". The Finnish ethnogenesis is far more complex than that and involves several waves of people and a pre-Finno-Ugric Finland before any notion of a "Swedish nation" either.

    However, in my opinion and I don't think it is debatable, it makes no sense to say that "Finns were haplogroup I originally". "Finns" are a creation of I1 and n1c1 together, where n1c1 has nothing to do with being "Mongoloid".

  17. #42
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,349
    Points
    36,275
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,275, Level: 58
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 375
    Overall activity: 32.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Rikala View Post
    Plenty of nonsense in this thread, some sensible opinions (especially from Sparkey), but otherwise lots of fiction written in sub-par English and not surprisingly the content seems to correlate strongly with the language.

    The Finnish I1 predates any known historical "Swedish migration" to Finland, this is easily seen in the fact that the area with most I1 - Satakunta - is almost 100% Finnish speaking (the areas with considerable historical Swedish settlement are still ~5%+ Swedish speaking and have more n1c1 than Satakunta). The Swedish migration to Finland happened much later than what can explain the Finnish I1 and is historically known. "The Swedes" did not "bring" I1 and western genes to "Mongoloid Finns". The Finnish ethnogenesis is far more complex than that and involves several waves of people and a pre-Finno-Ugric Finland before any notion of a "Swedish nation" either.

    However, in my opinion and I don't think it is debatable, it makes no sense to say that "Finns were haplogroup I originally". "Finns" are a creation of I1 and n1c1 together, where n1c1 has nothing to do with being "Mongoloid".
    I agree but only for some détails I rewrote
    Y-N1c1 is an occidental branch of Y-N –a Y-SNP is not 'europoid' nor 'mongoloid' (rough namings) by itself –nevertheless we can consider the first one were born by autosomallymore 'mongoloid' people and by progressing toward West they took moreand more what we can name 'europoid' autosomals, considering it hadbeen a possible definitive break with their far sources in East Asiaor at least in Siberia –
    some scholars consider it has been asort of 'finnic phenotype' with statistical proper features, globallyhalfway between 'euro-' and 'mongol-', even if not all the featureswere halfway -
    as genetics is not on the model ofisolated drawers but rather dynamics we even could imagine apopulation beginning only to differentitate from an older euroasiaticstage where the more typical and current 'europoid' and 'mongoloid' were not yet completely discriminated (a beginning is needed foreverything!); – I think the first finnic speaking people reachingN-E Europe were as a majority y-N1 males already more on the'europoid' side – some 'asiatic' mt-DNA was found in N-E Europebefore them but was erased by other demic moves from East and West –these first finnic speaking people were not already the Finns ofFinland they contributed to form later, but they could have beensurprisingly more 'europoid' for mt-DNA than some predecessors ontheir way to Finland ! - in Finland and Estonia they found, Ithink, a completely old 'europoid' population as well by males (a lotof Y-I1, found too, let's not forget, in N-Russia in lands whereGermanics never put a foot) that by females - males and females forthe most of hunters-gatherers stocks– some of these finnic peoplewent northward to Lappland where they mixed with an other (alreadypartly differentiated) 'europoid' population-
    so Finns of Finland are no more theprevious finnic speaking tribes from Oural but a geographicallygradual mix of these last ones with the « autochtones » ;all that can explain the almost absent to light presence of'east-asiatic' autosomals and almost absent to light typically 'mongoloid' phenotypic features -
    &: among the regions they crossed(and maybe formed for a part) or frequented were the shared N-Steppeswhere the genesis of apparently entirely 'europoid' I-Eans tookplace (perhaps not all the ancestors of I-Eans, according to debatedtheories) and I'm almost sure contacts and eschanges took place atsome level -

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    31-08-13
    Posts
    37
    Points
    3,146
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,146, Level: 16
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 304
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Sweden



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    Real genetic and anthropology data

    The oldest skulls of Uralic/Finno ugric in western Siberia were both Mongoloid and Mongoloid/Caucasoid.

    Comb-ceramics (3500-2750) - Finno-Ugric peoples, who came from Siberia
    It is very funny that you call this "real genetic and anthropology data", as it is as far away from real science as it gets. You use some ancient, unnamed Russian source which probably meant well at the time but is now completly obsolete and would not be used by any serious scientist today. Why do you cling on to this?

    Claiming that the Comb-Ceramic culture was Uralic-speaking is just incredibly speculative - first, serious anthropologists never connect archeological cultures to languages in this way, and second, the comb-ceramic culture is much older than the spread of Uralic languages, and third, it is too wide to include a single language famiy. No serious scientist today would believe that a comb-ceramic burial could be interpreted as a "Uralic burial".

    The only thing we know about Uralic languages is that they spread from an Urheimat in the Volga region, and that they had close proximity to the Indo-European languages. These are facts. Anything else is speculation.

    As far as genes go, I would guess that the Uralic people were originally similar to the Uralic people now living close to the Uralic Urheimat, such as Mordvins and Mari (although these may have gotten later admixture from Turkic and then Slavic people), ie mostly European. The Siberian component in NE Europe (which is also of course a fact) has most likely come via an Arctic route, and may be older than the Uralic languages. This Arctic explanation for the Siberian component seems to be rapidly gaining ground among anthropologists.

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    914
    Points
    12,538
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,538, Level: 33
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 112
    Overall activity: 46.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Most Sami people are bearing N1 HG.
    Now,Sami people are very closed to Finns and are speaking an Ugric language.
    So I think is quite clear that most of the original Finnish speakers were bearing N1 HG.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,839
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Most Sami people are bearing N1 HG.
    Now,Sami people are very closed to Finns and are speaking an Ugric language.
    So I think is quite clear that most of the original Finnish speakers were bearing N1 HG.
    N is the most common Y haplotype among the Sami, but I1 is also quite common, and their mtDNA pattern is similar to that of Berbers. IMO, the Sami were an old European population who moved into their present homeland after the last glacial maximum and were later conquered by Ugric speaking N types from Russia. The Finns seem to have been formed by the same mixture, but the types of people who were ancestors of the Sami were probably a minority among the Finns. I see N as the Y haplotype of Russia before the Bronze Age expansion of R1a types into the Russian forest from the steppes.

  21. #46
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    N is the most common Y haplotype among the Sami, but I1 is also quite common, and their mtDNA pattern is similar to that of Berbers.
    A 2005 study found that some Berber and Sami people belong to the same maternal lineage; U5b1b1. This doesn't mean much U5b1b1 because takes up a small percentage of Berber mtDNA, is a very old lineage that originated in western Europe, exists all over Europe today, and because the northeast European-specific U5b1b1a is only around 4,000 years old and takes up close to 50% of Sami mtDNA because of a founder effect. It is true the Sami and Berbers have maternal connections because of U5b1b1, but that's true for almost all Europeans, and if you count other maternal lineages every population from Bangledish-Spain and from Lapland-Libya has common grandmothers in the last 6,000 years, which is no big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    IMO, the Sami were an old European population who moved into their present homeland after the last glacial maximum and were later conquered by Ugric speaking N types from Russia.
    The Irish aka Gealics have been Ireland for at least as long as the Sami have been in Lapland.

    The Sami are Finoo-Urgic, how could they have been conquered by themselves? You must mean most of their blood is from the pre-Finno-Urgic people of Scandinavia. There is already ancient mtDNA prove the Mesolithic hunter gatherers of Karelia are not the ancestors of modern Sami, and have very few remaining maternal lineages in the region. The other ~50% of Sami mtDNA is V, which could defintley be a farmer lineage. I don't know of any autosomal DNA tests done on Sami, but I guarantee you they are very similar to other northeast Europeans, like Finns and Finno-Urgics in Russia.

    I think you should update your knowledge on European genetics, because no one believes the romantic theories people made decades ago(pre-DNA) about the peaceful matriarchal ingenious non-Indo European people of old Europe, that were conquered by evil patriarchal Indo Europeans, and some how Basque, Sami, etc. are pure breed Paleolithic survivors, despite being surrounded by other ethnic groups. They're not true, and people created them because of their own agendas not because of evidence. The Indo Europeans were actually more ingenious to Europe than the Neolithic-descended west Europeans they conquered and than modern Sami.

  22. #47
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    Are west Finns taller and more cro-magnon looking than east Finns?

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    156
    Points
    4,932
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,932, Level: 20
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    It is very funny that you call this "real genetic and anthropology data", as it is as far away from real science as it gets. You use some ancient, unnamed Russian source which probably meant well at the time but is now completly obsolete and would not be used by any serious scientist today. Why do you cling on to this?

    Claiming that the Comb-Ceramic culture was Uralic-speaking is just incredibly speculative - first, serious anthropologists never connect archeological cultures to languages in this way, and second, the comb-ceramic culture is much older than the spread of Uralic languages, and third, it is too wide to include a single language famiy. No serious scientist today would believe that a comb-ceramic burial could be interpreted as a "Uralic burial".

    The only thing we know about Uralic languages is that they spread from an Urheimat in the Volga region, and that they had close proximity to the Indo-European languages. These are facts. Anything else is speculation.

    As far as genes go, I would guess that the Uralic people were originally similar to the Uralic people now living close to the Uralic Urheimat, such as Mordvins and Mari (although these may have gotten later admixture from Turkic and then Slavic people), ie mostly European. The Siberian component in NE Europe (which is also of course a fact) has most likely come via an Arctic route, and may be older than the Uralic languages. This Arctic explanation for the Siberian component seems to be rapidly gaining ground among anthropologists.
    Petter, I love you! I agree with you on everything. That article was awful! And good heavens, how they can be sure that Fofanova people spoke a Uralic language and how come they think that Uralic people invaded Indo-European areas. Honestly, all East Siberians look pretty similar and they speak very different languages. With the improving climate, there was plenty of room in Boreal Asia for everybody. It is very fascinating that the Siberian component in Finns is very much Native American-shifted! However, I am sick and tired with this Mongol thing. The Finnish N1c is more Chinese than Mongol. Mongols have clearly more R1a and Q than N1c, and in Mongols N1c+ N1b often amounts the same as R1a and Q and even less.

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    It is very funny that you call this "real genetic and anthropology data", as it is as far away from real science as it gets. You use some ancient, unnamed Russian source which probably meant well at the time but is now completly obsolete and would not be used by any serious scientist today. Why do you cling on to this?

    Claiming that the Comb-Ceramic culture was Uralic-speaking is just incredibly speculative - first, serious anthropologists never connect archeological cultures to languages in this way, and second, the comb-ceramic culture is much older than the spread of Uralic languages, and third, it is too wide to include a single language famiy. No serious scientist today would believe that a comb-ceramic burial could be interpreted as a "Uralic burial".

    The only thing we know about Uralic languages is that they spread from an Urheimat in the Volga region, and that they had close proximity to the Indo-European languages. These are facts. Anything else is speculation.

    As far as genes go, I would guess that the Uralic people were originally similar to the Uralic people now living close to the Uralic Urheimat, such as Mordvins and Mari (although these may have gotten later admixture from Turkic and then Slavic people), ie mostly European. The Siberian component in NE Europe (which is also of course a fact) has most likely come via an Arctic route, and may be older than the Uralic languages. This Arctic explanation for the Siberian component seems to be rapidly gaining ground among anthropologists.


    Lol the stuff I posted is better than any indenial Finns or Swedes ( who also have 7.5% N and would rather claim it as Caucasian ).


    Undeniable fact.
    (Wether you accept this or not is your problem )


    1) All modern Uralic speaking people are mixture of Mongoloid and Caucasoid, and they are all linked with N


    2) Facial reconstruction of people from western Siberian since 2000 BC had already revealed people with Mongoloid/Caucasoid


    3) Haplogroup N is found maximum in Siberian Mongoloid population where caucasian admixture reaches 0% where as all Caucasian Population with N always shows hint of Mongoloid admixture

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-07-13
    Posts
    196
    Points
    12,000
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,000, Level: 33
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 650
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Petter, I love you! I agree with you on everything. That article was awful! And good heavens, how they can be sure that Fofanova people spoke a Uralic language and how come they think that Uralic people invaded Indo-European areas. Honestly, all East Siberians look pretty similar and they speak very different languages. With the improving climate, there was plenty of room in Boreal Asia for everybody. It is very fascinating that the Siberian component in Finns is very much Native American-shifted! However, I am sick and tired with this Mongol thing. The Finnish N1c is more Chinese than Mongol. Mongols have clearly more R1a and Q than N1c, and in Mongols N1c+ N1b often amounts the same as R1a and Q and even less.
    Their R1a and Q is not significant, most studies shows Mongols only have 4% R1a and 5% Q.


    The nature of Journal science shows haplogroup N in Europe among Finns, Sammi have a Eastern Eurasian origin rather than Western Eurasian origin


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •