Finns weren't N but I haplogroup originally

[Gurka atla]

This clearly proves that Finns Y-DNA were originally like Swedes, Norwegian and Danish who are also mainly haplogroup I which is typical of Scandivanian indo-european Y-DNA. They have either moderate frequencies N to 0% of N. Danish and Finns have similar mtDNA only the Y-DNA is different partially


Haplogroup I

A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

[Templar]

This clearly proves that Finns Y-DNA were originally like Swedes, Norwegian and Danish who are also mainly haplogroup I which is typical of Scandivanian indo-european Y-DNA. They have either moderate frequencies N to 0% of N. Danish and Finns have similar mtDNA only the Y-DNA is different partially


Haplogroup I

A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

Well Finland's population was very low (they were still hunter-gatherers) when Swedish vikings began settling and raiding it. I think they left a big genetic imprint on them. The original Finns were probably an EEMH-Mongoloid mix, therefore I don't think they had blonde hair and other light features before they started mixing with Swedes. The genes for light features probably spread quickly in Finland due to aesthetic reasons, and then they remained Blonde due to geographic isolation (Finns are blonder now than the people that they got the Blonde hair genes from).

[Gurka atla]

Well Finland's population was very low (they were still hunter-gatherers) when Swedish vikings began settling and raiding it. I think they left a big genetic imprint on them. The original Finns were probably an EEMH-Mongoloid mix, therefore I don't think they had blonde hair and other light features before they started mixing with Swedes. The genes for light features probably spread quickly in Finland due to aesthetic reasons, and then they remained Blonde due to geographic isolation (Finns are blonder now than the people that they got the Blonde hair genes from).

One study shows Finns are 9.3% Mongoloid on average other is 6.13% but some Finns are also 12% Mongoloid however the rest of their components is more Baltic than anyone

[sparkey]

This clearly proves that Finns Y-DNA were originally like Swedes, Norwegian and Danish who are also mainly haplogroup I which is typical of Scandivanian indo-european Y-DNA.

I don't see any clear proof. Do you know the diversity of Haplogroup I in Finland? (Hint: It's not high, being dominated by one major I1 subclade.) How about the age of major Haplogroup I lineages in Finland? (Hint: ~2000YBP for the main one.) How about the cline of those lineages? What does the highly Western bias really say?

IMHO it's likely that Finland could have once been Haplogroup I dominant, but I'm not convinced that it was by a time in which the ethnogenesis of the Finns had occurred.

[gyms]

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/...-skoglund.html

"The finding of Y-haplogroup I2a1 also parallels the Motala hunter-gatherers, so everything seems quite consistent with the Mesolithic Swedes being genetically very close to the Pitted Ware Neolithic ones. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%...b_Ware_culture

[gyms]

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/ea...cience.1253448

Supplementary Material for
Genomic Diversity and Admixture Differs for Stone-Age Scandinavian
Foragers and Farmers


http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2014/04/23/science.1253448.DC1/Skoglund.SM.pdf

[sparkey]

Here is the existing thread for Skoglund et al. 2014. gyms, do you think that study has bearing on the topic of this thread?

[gyms]

Thanks,I know...
Diversity and frequency means not so mutch in this case(we are talking about mesolithic-8000 years).Y haplogroup I* and/or some subclades could be Finno-Ugric in origin.The language is "quite" old.

[Fire Haired14]

This clearly proves that Finns Y-DNA were originally like Swedes, Norwegian and Danish who are also mainly haplogroup I which is typical of Scandivanian indo-european Y-DNA. They have either moderate frequencies N to 0% of N. Danish and Finns have similar mtDNA only the Y-DNA is different partially


Haplogroup I

A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

Not true. For one thing I1 which takes up nearly all I in the Norse, arrived sometime after the Neolithic, probably around 5,000-4,000BP, and at somepoint probably in pre-Germanic times moved over to Finland. Stone age Scandinavian hunter gatherers did have about 100% Y DNA I, but most or all was I2a1-P37.2, and probably many were specifically apart of brother lineages to I2a1b. Finns are a Finno-Urgic ethnic group, and the main Y DNA of FInno-Urgics is N1c1. Pre-Finno Urgic hunter gatherers of FInland may have had mainly Y DNA I, but they are probably not the main ancestors of modern Finns, and if anything contributed very small amount of ancestry to Finns. Since Finns have over 50% Mesolithic European ancestry, it makes sense that many of their male ancestors belonged to Y DNA I, but hardly any are direct paternal ancestors.

[Fire Haired14]

Thanks,I know...
Diversity and frequency means not so mutch in this case(we are talking about mesolithic-8000 years).Y haplogroup I* and/or some subclades could be Finno-Ugric in origin.The language is "quite" old.

The I* samples from Mesolithic Sweden, are probably not I* it is just they were not tested for many I subclades, like I2a1-P37.2 which all most likely belonged to. Mesolithic Swedes probably had nothing to do with Finno-Urgics. There are very deep and young I1a2-L22 Finnish-specfic subclades, which probably migrated there from Sweden within the last 5,000 years.

[gyms]

There was hunter-gatherers (y haplogroup I.......)over the entire Europe in the pre-farming period.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/05/...ge-thrace.html



Originally Posted by Jean M
Why must it? Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again. If we stick to ancient DNA, this is the pattern we see for Y-DNA:

Palaeolithic: R* in Siberia. (Mal'ta boy, described in this paper as an example of Ancient Northern Eurasians)
European Mesolithic: I* and I2 (described in this paper as examples of West European Hunter-Gatherers)
European Neolithic: F* (older than Neolithic in origin), G2a and E1b1b1a1b (which we can class as Early European Farmers)
Central European Copper/Bronze Ages: R1a and R1b.

R1 may well have been lurking around the Caspian on the Europe/Asia border as early as the Mesolithic, but this paper indicates that the Ancient Northern Eurasian element to which we can link R1 did not enter Central, Western and Northern Europe until after the Neolithic.

[Aberdeen]

There was hunter-gatherers (y haplogroup I.......)over the entire Europe in the pre-farming period.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/05/...ge-thrace.html



Originally Posted by Jean M
Why must it? Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again. If we stick to ancient DNA, this is the pattern we see for Y-DNA:

Palaeolithic: R* in Siberia. (Mal'ta boy, described in this paper as an example of Ancient Northern Eurasians)
European Mesolithic: I* and I2 (described in this paper as examples of West European Hunter-Gatherers)
European Neolithic: F* (older than Neolithic in origin), G2a and E1b1b1a1b (which we can class as Early European Farmers)
Central European Copper/Bronze Ages: R1a and R1b.

R1 may well have been lurking around the Caspian on the Europe/Asia border as early as the Mesolithic, but this paper indicates that the Ancient Northern Eurasian element to which we can link R1 did not enter Central, Western and Northern Europe until after the Neolithic.

And just how do you arrive at the conclusion that Iron Age remains tells us whether R1 arrived in Europe prior to the Neolithic? Whenever R1 arrived in Europe, it was prior to that individual's lifetime.

[Gurka atla]

I don't see any clear proof. Do you know the diversity of Haplogroup I in Finland? (Hint: It's not high, being dominated by one major I1 subclade.) How about the age of major Haplogroup I lineages in Finland? (Hint: ~2000YBP for the main one.) How about the cline of those lineages? What does the highly Western bias really say?

IMHO it's likely that Finland could have once been Haplogroup I dominant, but I'm not convinced that it was by a time in which the ethnogenesis of the Finns had occurred.

One also have to look at the mtDNA to find out the real origins of Finns. At least on mtDNA they are indistinguishable from the rest of its Scandinavian neighbors. The average Finns have 29% I1a the more west you move the lower the N1c1 however the mtDNA are exactly the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

Lappalainen et al 2008

Finland (west) 230 of the samples were 40% I1a
Finland (east) 306 of the samples were 19% I1a


Haplogroup I1a is the dominant marker

[Gurka atla]

Not true. For one thing I1 which takes up nearly all I in the Norse, arrived sometime after the Neolithic, probably around 5,000-4,000BP, and at somepoint probably in pre-Germanic times moved over to Finland. Stone age Scandinavian hunter gatherers did have about 100% Y DNA I, but most or all was I2a1-P37.2, and probably many were specifically apart of brother lineages to I2a1b. Finns are a Finno-Urgic ethnic group, and the main Y DNA of FInno-Urgics is N1c1. Pre-Finno Urgic hunter gatherers of FInland may have had mainly Y DNA I, but they are probably not the main ancestors of modern Finns, and if anything contributed very small amount of ancestry to Finns. Since Finns have over 50% Mesolithic European ancestry, it makes sense that many of their male ancestors belonged to Y DNA I, but hardly any are direct paternal ancestors.

However modern Finns have 40% I1a in west to 19% I1a in the east, one province even showed 56% I1a. I2a is found in small frequencies only.

Is much wiser to suggest modern Finns have ancestry derived from both proto-North germanic speakers and Uralic speakers because most of their other Y-DNA haplogroup except for N don't even resemble other Uralic people in the Urals such as I1a which is either non-existant or few percentages.

Finns mtDNA are extremely similar to Sweden, Norway, Denmark and partially similar in Y-DNA the only really notable difference is that N1c1 is predominant in Finland ( at least on the east ). Sweden and Norway have but but a mere 7.5% N1c1 but Denmark have 0% to 0.5%

Like some previous thread had posted before. I1a is found high all countries speaking North germanic languages like Sweden, Norway, Denmark and even Iceland and Finland being the only geographic country next to them that speaks Uralic have the highest I1a out of all non-North Germanic speaker. So it's definitely sure they have partial proto-north germanic ancestry.

[sparkey]

Thanks,I know...
Diversity and frequency means not so mutch in this case(we are talking about mesolithic-8000 years).Y haplogroup I* and/or some subclades could be Finno-Ugric in origin.The language is "quite" old.

The question was whether or not "Finns" were mainly Haplogroup I originally. Maybe some sort of recognizable proto-Finno-Ugric speaking population was Haplogroup I dominant back in the Mesolithic, but they wouldn't have been Finns, and that's so speculative anyway that it's tough to say much more about it. A more relevant question than "when did proto-Finno-Ugric form?" is "when did the Finns become recognizable as such?"

There was hunter-gatherers (y haplogroup I.......)over the entire Europe in the pre-farming period.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/05/...ge-thrace.html

Although it's likely that Haplogroup I was "over the entire Europe," there are some places where it's still ambiguous whether or not that was the case, like Greece. I suppose Finland at least is close enough to Sweden that it's a very good guess that Finland hosted Haplogroup I carriers in the Mesolithic, but that is consistent with what I've been saying.

[sparkey]

One also have to look at the mtDNA to find out the real origins of Finns. At least on mtDNA they indistinguishable from the rest of its Scandinavian neighbors. The average Finns have 29% I1a the more west you move the lower the N1c1 however the mtDNA are exactly the same.

Agreed, this seems to be the same effect we often see with Y-DNA, where modern Y-DNA distributions exaggerate migrations and admixture. Looking at the Y-DNA of Finns, it looks like they have massive influence from Germanic peoples (post formation of proto-Germanic) as wells as massive influence directly from the N1c direction. However, mtDNA can have the opposite effect, in which it looks like everyone is only slightly different from their neighbors. The truth is probably somewhere in-between.

[MOESAN]

Well Finland's population was very low (they were still hunter-gatherers) when Swedish vikings began settling and raiding it. I think they left a big genetic imprint on them. The original Finns were probably an EEMH-Mongoloid mix, therefore I don't think they had blonde hair and other light features before they started mixing with Swedes. The genes for light features probably spread quickly in Finland due to aesthetic reasons, and then they remained Blonde due to geographic isolation (Finns are blonder now than the people that they got the Blonde hair genes from).

just for pigmentation:
Finns are more often "white" flaxen blond than germanic Scandinaves!!! (as are the Estonians too): it is without any discussion - this trend of lighter quality among blonds is common in Eastern Europe and surely, associated with other autosomals traits, predate the I-Ean and no-I-Ean languages in these areas, and it is hard to link this peculiarity to any Y-HG or mt-HG for now (not to say therie is no link at all, but to say we don't know at this stage)... So I can affirm (I believe) these very light haired people were all over N-E Europe before Germanics!

here and now I answer to every "colleague" here:
Y-I1 apparently not the first in S-Scandinavia, has some particular clades in Finnland which do not seem came with germanic speaking people - it's not to say there is NO sandinavian germanic Y-I1 in Finnland - I have not the subclades nor special SNP's for Russia, but in N-Russia Y-I1 reaches the 12-15% in certain regions outside the zones of historic germanic influence: so it could be old (look too at the Saami) - a russian scholar thinks these Y-I1 ancestors came from S-Baltic region into N- Russia at Mesolithical times -
it seems to me that Y-N1 came with the Finnic language mediated by a population more male than female (if I can say like that) the most of the female population seem having been steady enough and N-E European by nature - the West Finnland population was Y-I1 for the most since long ago, but surely enough received more recent apports by germanic speaking people at historic times (male mediated too): we have yet some scandinavian speaking areas in this part of Finnland -
my probelm is rather the Balts; who have an appreciable quantity of Y-N1: can we suppose the more northern of them were finnic speakers at some times but were overflowed by Y-R1a I-Ean speaking bearers?
Finno-Ugric languages are old enough at the source but that does not tell us the extension of the languages in Finnland nor Lappland nor South Baltic countries - we can figure out (when looking at metal works) that a part of the Finno-Ugric tribes had exchanges with I-Eans AND EVEN THAT THEY PARRALELED THE ADVANCE of some steppic tribes westwards? the classical scholars of Hungary seemingly thought the expansion of these F-U tribes from Oural/Ural to NE-Europe took place around the III-II° thousands years BC when we see upon some history maps that Finns already occupied Scandinavia about the 4500 BC...

[Sile]

I tend to agree with gurka....Finns originally where I group , few in numbers and where displaced in numbers by the migrating N group...............of course other groups also came in.

You need to also remember, finns ( finnic) where present in large numbers in modern latvia, estonia, lithuania and northern russia as stated as per ancient historians

[MOESAN]

I tend to agree with gurka....Finns originally where I group , few in numbers and where displaced in numbers by the migrating N group...............of course other groups also came in.

You need to also remember, finns ( finnic) where present in large numbers in modern latvia, estonia, lithuania and northern russia as stated as per ancient historians

I agree concerning finnic languages in these countries, but when at first??? here is the big question!
I don't think first Finns arriving around the Baltic Sea were Y-I1 as a majority: I repeat that for me Y-I1 bearers were there before finnic speakers, and they were descendants of Hunters-Gatherers of North-Europe - I see the cradle of Y-I1 South the Baltic Shores, between Denmark and Estonia...it's Y-N1 the core HG of the forst finnic speakers: I feel it in my guts (or maybe in my lever? to much akvavit?) -
good nigh,t nevertheless

[Gurka atla]

Look where I1a is mainly distributed.

[MOESAN]

Look where I1a is mainly distributed.

and what???
yes, I know this map, it seems globally good - but Shtrunov found in a survey more than 11% in Arkhangelsk region (Krasnoborsk) and other regions more southern (Ryazan by instance) so a bit more South and East than on this map (of Maciamo) ... but I'm not sure your map was for me in particular...
yet on this map we see Y-I1 that cannot not by sure being put on the account of Germanics nor Finns: the more you go close to the Finnic-Ugric cradle, the more you fonnd Y-N1

[Gurka atla]

and what???
yes, I know this map, it seems globally good - but Shtrunov found in a survey more than 11% in Arkhangelsk region (Krasnoborsk) and other regions more southern (Ryazan by instance) so a bit more South and East than on this map (of Maciamo) ... but I'm not sure your map was for me in particular...
yet on this map we see Y-I1 that cannot not by sure being put on the account of Germanics nor Finns: the more you go close to the Finnic-Ugric cradle, the more you fonnd Y-N1

Y-I1 is much more common in non-uralic or finno-ugric speakers of Russia this is very obvious. N1 is clearly a Mongoloid marker that's found highest frequencies in Nenets and Yakuts.

[gyms]

Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Grubbe]

At least the Forest Finns who came to Norway via Sweden in the 17. century were overwhelmingly N1c, at least from FTDNA results so far. Most of them came from the northeastern part of Finland, I have read, even if I don't know the source of that statement.

[albanopolis]

At least the Forest Finns who came to Norway via Sweden in the 17. century were overwhelmingly N1c, at least from FTDNA results so far. Most of them came from the northeastern part of Finland, I have read, even if I don't know the source of that statement.

Had the Fins been haplo I originally they should not have been speaking Fino-Ugric now. Their language should have been indoeuropean or some non Asian language. My view is that they were a small group of Mongolian related people at the beginning who constantly mixed with local I people. On the way to Finland these Mongolian tribes had already mixed with Russians and later Germanic.