Genome of Iron Age Thracian

[Alan]

He also scored a high "Caucasus" number. "Caucasus" plus "Gedrosian" which arrived later, gives you your "West Asian" component.

The Caucasus he scored must have been the ancient EEF genes which are nowadays part of this EEF ANE synthesis from which Caucasus evolved. And those "Southwest Asian" genes which were found in Ötzi are the farmer portion of the modern Southwest Asian component.

 

[Aberdeen]

"or the IE folk were partly EEF themselves. And if we accept that idea, it's difficult to reconcile to the archeological evidence of where the IE folk came from"

Unless the EEF - or one segment of them at least - lived west of the Black Sea i.e adjacent to I-E north of the Black Sea.

Cucuteni etc.

That is the only other possibility that I can think of. But I think the linguists are fairly certain that a language like proto-IE would have evolved within a fairly limited area originally, so any admixture would have had to have occurred prior to the development of the language. I don't think we're going to resolve this puzzle until we have DNA results from specimens that we can definitely say were IE folk living on the steppe just prior to the IE expansion.

 

[polako]

I'm really not sure what to make of the data, other than to consider the possibility that these two samples aren't necessarily representative of Iron Age Thrace.

Both samples look just fine as representatives of Iron Age Thrace. The only problem is the analysis. Refer to the comments at the link below, specifically this one...

They didn't run the ancient samples in the same ADMIXTURE analysis as the modern samples, but instead used allele frequencies sourced from the modern samples to test the ancient samples.

This was a problem because it changed the conditions under which the modern and ancient samples were tested under, and resulted in much less precise outcomes for the ancient samples. In effect, this was the ADMIXTURE version of PCA projection bias.

There are two ways around this: a) run the ancient samples together with the modern samples, or b) source the allele frequencies from a subset of modern samples, and then use them to test the ancient samples as well as the rest of the modern samples. Then you can actually compare the modern samples to the ancient samples.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/more-info-on-two-thracian-genomes-from.html

 

[Engel]

Not really;
In fact far from it;

Nein. It ain't true and my opinion will not change

 

[skaheen15]

I think Thracian were related with proto-Slavs through hg. I2a. But Northern Slavs are more (Mongoloid?) N1c1 while Southern Slavs are more I2a.

You do realize that Thracian wasn't a Slavic language, right? And that there were other IE cultures in the Balkans before the Slavs arrived? You think the Illyrians were Slavs? How can you say that the Balkans were 'Indo-Europeanized by Slavic people' when that's clearly not the case?

 

[Yetos]

Kurgan culture?.....3000BC this culture ended,......... K8 is from 450BC ..........you actually think no other culture was around between kurgan culture period and the k8 thracian homeland in his lifetime!
We are talking of the years ~450BC , many historians are around and can tell us the history, Macedonia is emerging, Illyrians are moving south th confront the macedonians and thracians/dacians ,migrations are basically finished unless its due to conquests. Ancient Iron-age Europe is basically set. Bronze-age mass migrations is finished.

Interesting

450 BC is quite known era for archaologists, cause enough Data and literature we have from that Era, and surely is centuries of iraon age migrations,

WE SPEAK ABOUT PERSIAN WARS? and there were 3 Satrapies in Haimos peninsula, one of them is the one SKUDRA ΣΚΥΔΡΑ and Youna takubara (Greeks whith shiled hats (Kausia)) and the last was in Odrysse Thracians the Saka

From 500 to 450 we have Greco Persian wars and starting entrance of Scythians to the lands of Getae,
remember Greeks describe Scythians as relatives of Persians and Thracians as enemy of Persians from the times of Queen Thamar

PS
Skudra as also Skoda as also Scythia even Scot probably means shooters while saka as Achaioi as Saxon as Chech as Sah means noble men/kings

 

[Yetos]

Yes, Thracian Tumuli are essentially Kurgans. It's common knowledge.

• The Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak, near the town of Kazanlak in central Bulgaria, is a Thracian kurgan of c. the 4th century BC.
• The Thracian Tomb of Sveshtari, Bulgaria, is a Thracian kurgan of c. the 3rd century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

In Fact in Bulgaria is where the both Gibutas Kurgan Hypothesis, and the other of horse wheel and chariots go boom,
Varna Necropolis complex proves the oposite,
That is Balkans that moved to stepe and N Caucasus
Varna is the first GOLD METTALURGY IN THE WORLD AND IS CONNECTED MUCH WITH AEGEAN AND MINOR ASIAN POPULATION,
THAT CULTURE EVEN CHANGE THE WAY EGYPTIAN PHARAOH WERE BURRIED,
By following arsenic bronze we find IE road, by Following gold mettalurgy we see an oposite road than Kurgans,

I am still waiting for more from there.

 

[Yetos]

indeed interesting thread,

I am turning towards that K8 could be from a Scythian, that days with Persian Wars and 1-3 satrapies in Balkans and even Makedonians to be under one day and Free the other, while some Phrygians might return to Brygia who knows what alliances and refugges could have been done,
(no need to expand to the Δαρνακοχωρια borders)



But what I observe is this in Dienekes

"Also of interest, given previous suggestions that the Iceman had more Neandertal ancestry than modern Europeans:

However, all D-tests involving another non-African population do not significantly deviate from zero, suggesting that the Iceman genome contains levels of archaic ancestry that are comparable to that of other non-African populations."

which compining with I post few days Before
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30215-The-agricultural-booming-populations-in-Europe

I think I found 3rd clue that fits in my opignion about Balcanic-Italian (Not Iberian) E-V13 date and origin. It came after the E1b found in Konya, and was not present in Sesclo Vinca and Varna cultures,
(Personal believe, All rights reserved )
​

 

[Sile]

indeed interesting thread,

I am turning towards that K8 could be from a Scythian, that days with Persian Wars and 1-3 satrapies in Balkans and even Makedonians to be under one day and Free the other, while some Phrygians might return to Brygia who knows what alliances and refugges could have been done,
(no need to expand to the Δαρνακοχωρια borders)



But what I observe is this in Dienekes

"Also of interest, given previous suggestions that the Iceman had more Neandertal ancestry than modern Europeans:

However, all D-tests involving another non-African population do not significantly deviate from zero, suggesting that the Iceman genome contains levels of archaic ancestry that are comparable to that of other non-African populations."

which compining with I post few days Before
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30215-The-agricultural-booming-populations-in-Europe

I think I found 3rd clue that fits in my opignion about Balcanic-Italian (Not Iberian) E-V13 date and origin. It came after the E1b found in Konya, and was not present in Sesclo Vinca and Varna cultures,
(Personal believe, All rights reserved )
​

The K8 sample has been discarded due to DNA corruption by the russians, only 192.1 sample is of any value. That sample shows a lot of french AuDna. The body was buried around 450BC

 

[MOESAN]

not any new ethny coming from a same area send completelety new DNA, not everytime at least

 

[Sile]

results of the 4 ancient Thracians

P192-1 was definitely male, and the DNA evidence indicates that T2G2 was also male. Archaeological evidence indicates that V2 and K8 were male, but their DNA indicates that they were female.

The calls show that P192-1 wasn’t E, G, or T1, and that T2G2 wasn’t E1.
If V2 and K8 were male, then they weren’t G.


The calls confirm the published finding that P192-1 was U3b.


The calls also confirm the published finding that T2G2 was HV.



The calls show that V2 was probably U2e.



The calls show that K8 was U.



Only one to have settled ydna and mtdna is 192-1
ydna = H1b1 ......called H-M82 in ftdna .......and H1a in isogg
Mtdna = U3b

 

[Yetos]

bahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

so thracian keep their mystery again?

u2e a west Eurasian maybe expected?

u3b that is interesting, could Romani population be so old in Europe?

and to movements,
u2e can prove of Rusian/ukraine devastation?
u3b can brove a devastation from minor Asia to balkans to baltic?
and HV maybe from North? or Central Europe?

headache again, any clues from the result that Sile post?

 

[Sile]

bahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

so thracian keep their mystery again?

u2e a west Eurasian maybe expected?

u3b that is interesting, could Romani population be so old in Europe?

and to movements,
u2e can prove of Rusian/ukraine devastation?
u3b can brove a devastation from minor Asia to balkans to baltic?
and HV maybe from North? or Central Europe?

headache again, any clues from the result that Sile post?

this is the current H ydna isogg tree...i gave you the wrong one
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html

the thracian 192-1.....is H1b1-Z14031, that the only positive marker found so far

 

[Alan]

results of the 4 ancient Thracians

P192-1 was definitely male, and the DNA evidence indicates that T2G2 was also male. Archaeological evidence indicates that V2 and K8 were male, but their DNA indicates that they were female.

The calls show that P192-1 wasn’t E, G, or T1, and that T2G2 wasn’t E1.
If V2 and K8 were male, then they weren’t G.


The calls confirm the published finding that P192-1 was U3b.


The calls also confirm the published finding that T2G2 was HV.



The calls show that V2 was probably U2e.



The calls show that K8 was U.



Only one to have settled ydna and mtdna is 192-1
ydna = H1b1 ......called H-M82 in ftdna .......and H1a in isogg
Mtdna = U3b

Wow the thracian guy was H1b1*? Is this another indiciation that Thracians came from what is nowadays modern Iran or Central Asia? And this also proves that Haplogroup H1* among Romani might be of Indo_European origin.

Since HV, U2e, U3b are all common in Iranic speakers and Mesopotamians and H1b1* is close cousin of IJKLT. So might H* also have originated somewhere between West and Central Asia?

 

[Alan]

bahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

so thracian keep their mystery again?

u2e a west Eurasian maybe expected?

u3b that is interesting, could Romani population be so old in Europe?

U3b is not a Romani Haplogroup. It is found in Indo_ Iranic (to which also Romanis belong)speakers. I personally know two Kurds with U3b.
U3b, U2 and HV must be Indo European markers.

 

[Sile]

Wow the thracian guy was H1b1*? Is this another indiciation that Thracians came from what is nowadays modern Iran or Central Asia? And this also proves that Haplogroup H1* among Romani might be of Indo_European origin.

Since HV, U2e, U3b are all common in Iranic speakers and Mesopotamians and H1b1* is close cousin of IJKLT. So might H* also have originated somewhere between West and Central Asia?

H1 ydna is only in india , bulgaria and romania

u3b mtdna is 23% in modern assyrian people and is linked with U7 which is 22% of assyrian people

we can surmise this thracian was maybe an old hittite and moved to thrace when the hittite nation imploded and migrated ~1100BC

 

[kamani]

I'm not sure we can rule out the H1 as a sign of early gipsy migrations together with the Indo-Europeans. I guess they would have been around as a group back then. I just don't want to fuel anymore the jokes about Romanians.

 

[Alan]

H1 ydna is only in india , bulgaria and romania

u3b mtdna is 23% in modern assyrian people and is linked with U7 which is 22% of assyrian people

we can surmise this thracian was maybe an old hittite and moved to thrace when the hittite nation imploded and migrated ~1100BC

Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).^[37] Haplogroup L and Haplogroup H are thought to have originated from prehistoric South Asia.^[38]

Kalasha have up to 20% H1*. H1 is found in South-Central Asia and Southeast Iran/Balochistan.

Genetic analysis of Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) by Quintana-Murci et al. (2004) stated that "the western Eurasian presence in the Kalash population reaches a frequency of 100%" with the most prevalent mtDNA Haplogroups being U4 (34%), R0 (23%), U2e (16%), and J2 (9%). The study asserted that no East or South Asian lineages were detected and that the Kalash population is composed of western Eurasian lineages (as the associated lineages are rare or absent in the surrounding populations). The authors concluded that a western Eurasian origin for the Kalash is likely, in view of their maternal lineages.

Kalasha have also quite high frequency of U2e.

As I said in the past, Kalasha are not a heterogenous bunch who evolved from mixings. If anything they are the remnant of an ancient Indo-Iranian people of the region. U3b and HV are quite signicant among Kurds, Iranians and Mesopotamians makes me wonder if the Thracians did not came somewhere from this region.

Also I believe Thracians were the closest you could get to Indo_Iranian speakers (maybe beside Tocharians).

 

[Yetos]

U3b is not a Romani Haplogroup. It is found in Indo_ Iranic (to which also Romanis belong)speakers. I personally know two Kurds with U3b.
U3b, U2 and HV must be Indo European markers.

mt U3b in Europe is major in Romani populations

 

[Alan]

mt U3b in Europe is major in Romani populations

This Haplogroup is not Romani.

J1 is major in Arabs but J1 is not Arabic.

U3b is Indo_Iranian and Anatolian. Romani are an Indo_Iranian speakers. Back than during Thracian period Romanis didn't exist.

This is the distribution map of U3*