Y DNA R1b and homosexuality

@Lebrok,

I read some type of Ape-expert or whatever(don't know the real name) that said homosexuality has never been reported in Chimps in the wild, but is well known in Bonobos. Also, that they usually only see homosexuality in animals when they're taken out of the wild and put in zoos or just human controlled areas.

The vast majority of studies have been conducted in the wild.
 
Maybe in lesbian marriages, but obviously not in gay marriages.

My ex partner was married with two children and there are many cases of gay men who were married and have children.....as much as Lesbians
 
My ex partner was married with two children and there are many cases of gay men who were married and have children

I don't doubt it.

But they adopted these children, or sired them in previous hetero marriages - they did not give birth to them while in gay marriage.

And the professor in question spoke about children born by homosexual couples (which obviously is only physically possible for lesbians).

Probably it was just a slip of the tongue, though.
 
There is a great debate right now as to whether homosexuality is genetic or learned, homosexuals themselves strongly believe that they are "born this way". I present to you my research into the topic.

First I will reference this map of the legality of homosexuality in Europe contrasted against the spread of Y DNA Haplogroup R1b in Europe.
gay-marriage-2-copy.jpg

Haplogroup_R1b.gif



You can easily see that homosexuality is only legal in European countries where the y dna haplogroup r1b is most common.

As we already know R1b is directly tied to the spread of the celtic cultures in europe.
(Map of the spread of celtic cultures below, also correlates to homosexuality legality status).
Celts_in_Europe.png



To finalize this theory I present a quote from the great Greek philosopher Aristolte and a later Roman Historian on the sexual preferences of the celts (taken from the celtic wikipedia page)

According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).[77] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."[78] In book XIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC (Bibliotheca historica 5:32), wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together. Diodorus went further, stating that "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused".



I think it is fair to say that r1b most likely carries the gene responsible for homosexuality.

I think this hypothesis is ludicrous, but since there are six pages with almost 150 responses, I'll add my two cents too. Haplogroup I1 appears more correlated to legalized gay marriage than R1b is. Look at Finland. Or why not say mtDNA haplogroup H1 has a higher correlation to legalized gay marriage? One should consider, these countries have all changed attitudes drastically in the past generation. Have they all changed haplogroups at the same time as well? Was this a demic or cultural invasion? Most of of Western Europe's and the USA's citizeny have been dragged like Archie Bunker to this new century's values, while various forms of entertainment media have continuously pushed the envelope of acceptance towards homosexuality for over a half century. For five decades now, it has always been the younger demographics with the ever more tolerant attitudes.

Do other correlations exist in relation to countries with legalized gay marriage other than haplogroup? What about the correlation between countries that air Hollywood pictures to countries that legalize gay marriage? Here's a map showing Viacom's territory for starters:
Viacom-intl-markets.jpg
 
Tomenable;475743 And the professor in question spoke about children born by homosexual couples [B said:
(which obviously is only physically possible for lesbians).[/B]

I remember when I was in 5th grade this kid said Lesbians can have kids. I was skeptical but believed it for a few years, till I realized that's absurd. Come on now, there's no way?! You need sperm, which comes from male genital. It''s just one of those myths.
 
I don't doubt it.

But they adopted these children, or sired them in previous hetero marriages - they did not give birth to them while in gay marriage.

A good number of homosexuals (both male and females) because of various cultural circumstances and the region are born in (even in the most Liberal countries) end up faking a marriage (male and female) as it seems to be the most tolerable situation (Even if fake and totally against their sexuality) to be able to live the closest thing to a normal life. Children are born in these marriages with normal intercourse (no adoptions) (I would not go into the details of what kind of sex life these couples have!). Some of these marriages are broken as the homosexual parent finds that they cannot take living in a fake life anymore. Sometimes early in marriage and sometimes later. Sometimes they stay in the marriage all their life. It all depends on the social and culture background of the region they come from.

Remember that in Western Europe for example generally speaking there are growing Muslim communities where homosexuality is preserved as a taboo and homosexuals can be persecuted (even physically) to 'regain' a kind of family honor.

In the Netherlands which is one of the most liberal countries have their own bible belt where the situation can be very similar to the Muslim one (the same religious fanaticism you get in the Bible belt in the states). The Catholic (depending which countries) and more and more the Anglican and some other protestant Christian religions have a totally different outlooks with homosexuals participate actively and openly in Religious activities. Even Judasim as a religion these days have a tolerant attitude towards homosexuals. The hardline radicals that quote the torah for reasons of persecution are the minority.

Many more homosexuals decide to remain single and live their life according the circumstances in the region they come from. In severely repressed areas migration is common, but underground homosexual activity is evident even in the most repressive regions of the world, but normally it will be a very lonely life as everyone feels the need to pair up at some point or another and can never be expressed in public.

In areas were legal marriage and civil union exist fake marriages are much much less then in very backwards countries and regions that criminalize homosexuality and promote persecution.

And the professor in question spoke about children born by homosexual couples (which obviously is only physically possible for lesbians).

Probably it was just a slip of the tongue, though.

In homosexual marriages where adoption is legalized most seem to adopt but some also opt to donate sperm (artificial insemination) with an arrangement to who will bring up the child (normally with a Lesbian). The vast majority of adoptions (where its legal) world wide are normally taken up by Lesbian couples. Some have their own children from previous fake marriages. Its also good to point out that when I say fake marriages it does not mean disrespect. To the contrary many female and Male homosexuals normally have a special bonding with their partner, its just the sexual part that does not work.

However the vast majority of cases the heterosexual part take the parting very bad (most of them do not disclose their sexuality as a reason) so the partner will be very demoralized. Even if the truth comes out there is lots of resentment and anger on separations or divorce. However most of the Heterosexual do manage to get on with their life but often they would have a degree of paranoia about their new partners thinking the same thing can happen. Some of them even become vociferous homophones because of the bitter experience.
 
A good number of homosexuals (both male and females) because of various cultural circumstances and the region are born in (even in the most Liberal countries) end up faking a marriage (male and female) as it seems to be the most tolerable situation (Even if fake and totally against their sexuality) to be able to live the closest thing to a normal life. Children are born in these marriages with normal intercourse (no adoptions) (I would not go into the details of what kind of sex life these couples have!). Some of these marriages are broken as the homosexual parent finds that they cannot take living in a fake life anymore. Sometimes early in marriage and sometimes later. Sometimes they stay in the marriage all their life. It all depends on the social and culture background of the region they come from.
Right on! How hard is to understand that G and L, were and still are in most places, forced to heterosexual marriages. They had and still have children in such unions. I personally know couple of cases. It was going on for good few thousand of years at least.
It only doesn't make sense for people who don't think it is a genetic issue. They think that gay and lesbiens were brainwashed by liberals or a devil into it, lol.
 
There are peace-keeping reports from westerns that the moslem peace keepers practice homosexuality with boys under 13 years of age...........it is noted as not a crime as long as they are not teens.

we have the same mentality with the man raping the 12 year old boy in the swimming pool complex in Austria a month or so ago
 
I didn't say that the acceptance of homosexuality was exclusive to western liberal society and that it couldn't be found in other cultures, I was making the case that people perceive homosexuality as more prevalent in these places because they are accepted by the modern cultures there. If you find acceptance of homosexuality on the left or right of the political spectrum it doesn't matter that's not the argument I'm making.(Although your claim that homosexuality was widespread in Nazi Germany as compared to any other society is dubious, the original leader of the brown shirts was purged for being a homosexual)

The fact is you have no empirical data to support your outrageous claim, especially when controlling for the fact that its acceptable to be homosexual in these countries. If you were to do conduct such a study in northern europe during the middle ages you would be hard pressed to find an admitting homosexual, just as you would be in modern times in places where homosexuality is frowned upon.

You make this claim that there is a genetic predisposition in Northern Europe for homosexuality but you offer no hard evidence other than your anecdotal observations which conveniently ignore anything that doesnt validate your argument. Your whole basis of your argument seems to be that since they in our modern era culturally accept homosexuality and have high rates of R1b then it must be correlated. R1b is also highly prevalent in central asia and parts of Africa yet I don't see much acceptance for homosexuality there. I'm guessing your counter argument will be equally vague and based on observation

Your argument is very superficial to my opinion.
It goes more or less like this: The Germanic R1b populations one day woke liberal and said, ok, from now and on everything goes. Everything crazy and satanic that human imagination can produce is acceptable. It did not happen like that. Many of Hitlers generals were homosexuals, (rumors are that even Hitler was one of them), so were a good part of their soldiers. The homosexuals, because of the rise of the cities were able to practice their rituals and remain anonymous. Their clubs were so numerous in Germanic countries, that people new about their life styles. They held important positions in the society and their numbers could not been ignored, so the general population came to accept their lifestyle as part of life. But without their large numbers they would have been ignored. Now the large cities have grown in Southern Europe and conditions for anonymity exist, so does the freedom for them to have their clubs, and still their ranks are limited. This is a strong hint that homosexuality is more pronounced in Germanic speaking countries not just because of liberty, but for their frequency. And of course R1b is prevalent in these countries. There has been no study for the numbers to introduce you to figures but an average person can deduct from the experience that a Germanic folk is a lot more likely to be homosexual than a non Germanic one.
 
Your argument is very superficial to my opinion.
It goes more or less like this: The Germanic R1b populations one day woke liberal and said, ok, from now and on everything goes. Everything crazy and satanic that human imagination can produce is acceptable. It did not happen like that. Many of Hitlers generals were homosexuals, (rumors are that even Hitler was one of them), so were a good part of their soldiers. The homosexuals, because of the rise of the cities were able to practice their rituals and remain anonymous. Their clubs were so numerous in Germanic countries, that people new about their life styles. They held important positions in the society and their numbers could not been ignored, so the general population came to accept their lifestyle as part of life. But without their large numbers they would have been ignored. Now the large cities have grown in Southern Europe and conditions for anonymity exist, so does the freedom for them to have their clubs, and still their ranks are limited. This is a strong hint that homosexuality is more pronounced in Germanic speaking countries not just because of liberty, but for their frequency. And of course R1b is prevalent in these countries. There has been no study for the numbers to introduce you to figures but an average person can deduct from the experience that a Germanic folk is a lot more likely to be homosexual than a non Germanic one.

If this were true, then we would expect to find that Celtic populations, having even more R1b than Germanic populations, would have even more of this happening. Is there any indication that this is so?
 
Your argument is very superficial to my opinion.
It goes more or less like this: The Germanic R1b populations one day woke liberal and said, ok, from now and on everything goes. Everything crazy and satanic that human imagination can produce is acceptable. It did not happen like that. Many of Hitlers generals were homosexuals, (rumors are that even Hitler was one of them), so were a good part of their soldiers. The homosexuals, because of the rise of the cities were able to practice their rituals and remain anonymous. Their clubs were so numerous in Germanic countries, that people new about their life styles. They held important positions in the society and their numbers could not been ignored, so the general population came to accept their lifestyle as part of life. But without their large numbers they would have been ignored. Now the large cities have grown in Southern Europe and conditions for anonymity exist, so does the freedom for them to have their clubs, and still their ranks are limited. This is a strong hint that homosexuality is more pronounced in Germanic speaking countries not just because of liberty, but for their frequency. And of course R1b is prevalent in these countries. There has been no study for the numbers to introduce you to figures but an average person can deduct from the experience that a Germanic folk is a lot more likely to be homosexual than a non Germanic one.

Germany does not recognize marriages for homosexuals, but civil unions. While both Spain, Portugal and also my country in the deepest south of Europe... also Argentina same sex marriage is legal. I am not sure what your point is. My country was ranked 3rd in LGBT rights world wide after Belgium and the UK and we have at least 5 openly gay majors.
 
They think that gay and lesbiens were brainwashed by liberals or a devil into it, lol.

:grin:.......and the open homosexual acquaintances of the ancient Greek / Roman Culture (and others) are downright perverted and disgusting and deserve gods wrath but everything else is so wonderful and still amazes us to this day :confused::rolleyes:
 
@Lebrok,

I don't get why you're so happy to mention that homosexuality caused population reduction in some ancient Greeks or that it was popular. Because it is clear most of these "homosexuals" were not actually homosexual, especially in Sparta. Circumstances caused them to pervert their sexuality. Prison does the same thing. It helps cause people to be homosexual. If humans were naturally so homosexual, we wouldn't exist!! It'll be difficult to find any population so homosexual or bisexual.

Saying "I think some people are born gay and should be treated with respect" is differnt from "That's awesome, a guy who claims to be gay left his wife and family. Hell yeah!! The Spartans almost went extinct because they were so gay. Yeah, awesome!!". You tread too much towards this second time to a point that it gets creepy.
 
@Lebrok,

I don't get why you're so happy to mention that homosexuality caused population reduction in some ancient Greeks or that it was popular. Because it is clear most of these "homosexuals" were not actually homosexual, especially in Sparta.
How did you figure I was happy?! I just stated a historical fact. Stop assuming.

Circumstances caused them to pervert their sexuality.
What circumstances?!
Prison does the same thing.
If anything they were the only free citizens of sparta. The rest of population was enslaved and worked for them. They were free warrior society.
It helps cause people to be homosexual.
Can you point us to statistics about level of homosexuality in prisons. Or you only know about this rampant prison homosexuality from Hollywood movies and internet stories?

If humans were naturally so homosexual, we wouldn't exist!! It'll be difficult to find any population so homosexual or bisexual.
How 1-3 percent homosexuality will make all humankind vanish?! Spartan's level was much higher, and with consequences indeed.

Saying "I think some people are born gay and should be treated with respect" is differnt from "That's awesome, a guy who claims to be gay left his wife and family. Hell yeah!! The Spartans almost went extinct because they were so gay. Yeah, awesome!!". You tread too much towards this second time to a point that it gets creepy.
Perhaps when you remove your emotions and prejudices you will start understand how it works. Just because you are emotional about this issue it doesn't mean I am. I'm completely impartial.
 
Interesting findings:

At the time of the Bell Beakers, someone mixed bones of both sexes.

https : // 4.bp.blogspot.com/-KkVPEsaUcvw/Vt3zvHC3--I/AAAAAAAAOFM/p0wrYTPA74M/s1600/Capture.JPG

Mike Parker-Pearson 2016
 
Yes, it is exactly what it means. Other words you are "pro-gay" as long as they stay in the closet, lol.
Le Brok. Welcome to the United States way of thinking!! You are getting it! lol... Seriously though, some people here act like extending personal liberties to others is somehow infringing on their own rights... As demonstrated by Fire-brained below... Sorry for resorting to a cheap shot, but this is so typical of the Southern US and it's such a sad situation... Trust me guys... I live in NC and the below drivel about "gayness being shoved down our throats" is not only a hilarious pun, :LOL:it is also grossly inaccurate!

Like i said last summer gay men and women probably did not receive their attraction to the same gender from the opposite gender. You can't get around that. If homosexuality is natural there are other causes. Trust me Lebrok, i am totally fine with saying it's natural just i am sick of people assuming it is or is not because of their agenda.
It depends how you define a progressive society. Is killing of unborn children(almost never because of rape) progressive? If gays are desprite for marriage and to be open about their homosexuality in society, whatever i guess they have the right to do so, even though currently i oppose that lifestyle. I just don't want homosexuality and their lifestyle being shoved down our throats 24/7 via the media, like it currently is. I want it to be represented according to its popularity, so not much. The way the far left supports homosexuality is annoying, extreme, and sick. Also, i don't want to be called a bigot, neanderthal, not given equal rights of expression, and posed as some hatern because i don't agree with the libearl elite.

Why separatist?
I have a feeling that everybody not agreeing with you is "far left".

Last time we talked about religion you bashed all the Catholics. The last time I checked they were christians.

Not true, I'm a fiscal conservative, and I'm still undecided about abortion. I just don't see a reason to oppress people and I love freedoms, but I never was a hippy. And for that I'm a conservo-liberal.

Thanks to oppressive and intolerant people like you we still have to fight to open their minds.
Again LeBrok, this is part of your training ;) ... Being moderate here is "left wing wacko," and to a Southerner, your "conservo-liberal status renders you a "communist." In the South I was raised Catholic... Not only did we get asked often if we worshiped Mary and drank blood (which I guess was technically true according to the transubstantiation), but now it is also the religion of Latino immigrants, so that is a double whammy for conservative Americans... Many people in the South honestly do not understand the family tree of Christianity, and don't realize that Catholicism is a Christian denomination... Additionally, it would frighten you how many protestants don't know where the word "protestant" derives from... If they did, they would know that Catholics are Christian! I am not saying this is all pervasive, but the amount of ignorance would truly frighten you my friend!

Venezuela perhaps? I might claim Brazil too. They might not be on the list of the top ten most liberal countries, but they are certainly more liberal than, say, Russia or Iran.

At the sub-country level, you sometimes see liberal, but poor, regions of countries. This is so in many poor urban areas of the USA, which overwhelmingly vote for the Democratic party (the more liberal of the two main political parties, and the one generally in favor of increased welfare and socialized medicine). By contrast, poor rural areas there tend to be highly conservative. There may also be a racial aspect to that because poor urban areas in the USA tend to be overwhelmingly black, while rural poverty there tends to be overwhelmingly white.
Another American with some sense! There's hope yet! It makes no real sense, but Southerners stubbornly vote against their own interests routinely... As you suggest, poor urban minorities are generally less socially conservative culturally, and being outside the mainstream this certainly influences voting.

I would say, developing countries with developing freedoms.
I would say that poor vote Democratic, because Democrats always promise more for the poor than conservatives. Best example is Medicare program by Obama. Otherwise I think they have similar level of conservatism and liberalism.
LeBrok, LeBrok, LeBrok... I thought we were getting somewhere... Again, you are assuming that Americans "think..." This is where you have been lead astray as explained in my response to Robert. Once you grasp how ignorant we are, the pieces will start falling into place!

It'll be hard to find a homosexual in the SouthEast United States, where everyone is basically 100% British. Or in Western United States, where everyone is 100% NorthWest European.
This is such rubbish... I am guessing they just don't like you very much and steer clear....

In US on other hand there is a steady democratic system for 200 years, with governments coming from roots, and not afraid of their people. We should also mention that Wild West culture proliferated and solidified gun ownership a lot too.
Maybe firearms at home are ok in a civil war or in very unstable situations were there is total anarchy....but in a functioning democracy? whats the purpose? unless one feels threatened all the time. For what other reason its ok to have a licensed fire arm at home? Love to hear about the benefits of it........
Angela, those were different times, time of turbulence, why would that justify for guns to be legal in American households in2015? to defend what and from whom? Are things really that bad? or its some kind of obsession that needs healing?
LeBrok does have a point, he understands us better than I gave him credit for earlier... :grin: I would not dismiss that as an influence, but as Maleth says it does not excuse current laws... That being said, a lot of people in the South do still hunt significantly and this reality makes restrictions less likely... I'm about as liberal as they come, but I do support gun ownership... We need more laws, rules/restrictions, background checks, limitations on types of guns that can be owned, etc... That might happen in my lifetime, but the South really will rise again if Washington tries to take their guns! It IS an OBSESSION for sure!

Homosexuality is perfectly normal in the animal kingdom (in smaller percentages just as in humans) and so is Bi sexuality by the way. What haplogroups do these animals carry? and Im not talking just about Bonobo's the closest animal to humans but an array of animal groups. Very natural and nothing disorderly and none of them are persecuted but a part of the clan.
I read some type of Ape-expert or whatever(don't know the real name) that said homosexuality has never been reported in Chimps in the wild, but is well known in Bonobos. Also, that they usually only see homosexuality in animals when they're taken out of the wild and put in zoos or just human controlled areas. Sexuality is male-female reproduction, end of story. If Homosexuality exists in nature in our DNA, it's some-type of mutation of heterosexuality. And to say homosexuality is on par with heterosexuality of normality in sexuality is denial of the mechanism of sex itself, because sex is a gender thing(One has the vagina, one has the penis).
As Maleth says, it is expressed throughout the animal kingdom... google my friend. Bonobos live in the wild... They happen to be in a pocket that is so resource dense and secluded that there was not need for competitive violence, so everyone just boinked everyone else all the time to expend energy instead of ripping each other apart... They essentially domesticated themselves as we have ourselves, and if I remember correctly (don't quote me on this, google it) we are more closely related to Bonobos than regular chimps... so maybe we share their potential natural inclination toward homosexuality... I personally am not gay and have never been inclined in that way, but I do not consider it any more unnatural than my heterosexuality.

No one can know for sure until all homosexuals and bisexuals feel outright comfortable in their sexuality world wide. Remember that in all Islamic countries homosexuality is a crime (Like in some African countries), just like it was in Europe a few decades ago. So who is going to claim to be a homosexual in any kind of survey?! Homosexuals only won some degree of rights very recently, in China and that does not mean that all of them are comfortable to be honest with their sexuality. There is still a
great deal of nonacceptance in Russia and the east of Europe in general and many refuse to be open or even comfortable with their sexuality.
Keep in mind that
genes do regulate level of hormones and amount of receptors. It could be a simple genetic case. Well, maybe not that simple if there are good few genes involved.

Yes, now when they have a choice, but not before when all the marriages were arranged and forced by parents and societal pressure. I know couple of gays from polish community here, married in Poland, who were husbands and fathers, and left all of this for a guy lover. They say that they were sick and tired of pretending they were straight. The point is that they were gay and they made children, possibly transferring "gayness" to next generation.
I have a gay 1st cousin once removed (R1b, btw :grin:) who, due to cultural/familial pressure was in a "convetional" marriage for decades before doing as many on this thread suggested, getting fed up with the lies and embracing who he really was. I'm happy for him, and his partner is hysterical btw. I think the attitude of those here who act like homosexuality is a genetic flaw really shows a dangerous kind of ignorance and refusal to be anything resembling objective (because is there really any such thing, or has quantum mechanics just screwed us all?). It's sad that this mentality is so prevalent here, in the Southern US, and elsewhere in the world, but I see it changing some in the younger generation; they are much more open-minded... and we'll say, "Bernie Sanders oriented," so their may be hope yet... for the US anyway.

When people tell me that gayness is a choice, I ask them "If you are straight, which we happen to be (despite the 'R1b celtic gay sex urge gene'), tell me about the moment you decided to be straight... I cannot remember making this decision; it was simply my natural preference for as long as I can remember, and luckily I was born into the liberal branch of the family and would have been equally accepted had I "opted" to be gay..." Science clearly tells us it is predominantly (if not entirely) genetic even if it can be culturally influenced... It's too bad people can't even realize when they are being prejudiced....

As far as I know homosexuality is greatly influenced by hormonal imbalance in the womb.
Then it seems like it would be more likely to be linked to X...

You make this claim that there is a genetic predisposition in Northern Europe for homosexuality but you offer no hard evidence other than your anecdotal observations which conveniently ignore anything that doesnt validate your argument.
Nice to see a few people representing a sane voice from the United States...

Good point. The "Gay Uncle" theory of the transmission of male homosexuality claims that the genes typically causing men to become gay do not affect women in that way. It then says that gay men, being mostly childless but still having a fatherhood instict, lavish extraordinary amounts of attention and nurturing onto their nieces and nephews. The nieces, having multiple strong "daddy" figures in their lives, grow up very healthy, get married, and have lots of children. The nephews become another generation of "gay uncles" to help raise the next generation of gay-male-gene propagating girls.
In a nutshell, the theory offers an explanation why such a seemingly anti-reproductive trait can still reproduce. In a sense, gay men reproduce indirectly via their sisters.

If this is true, I would expect there to be a stronger correlation between mtDNA and male homosexuality than a correlation with y-DNA. Has anyone found one?
I had never heard of that theory... Interesting! And if the answer to your last question shows a link to mtdna it could also be linked to Promenade's hormone imbalance...?

Only way to find out is to make a poll. If there was any gay gene, I seriously doubt that the Gay gene would solely hitch a ride on the Y-Chromozone; that would mean that lesbians would be stereotyped as having a Y-Chromozone.
Sourcing from 23andme, these genes are the strongest link to homosexuality.
rs6990254: G = more likely to be homosexual, T = average likelihood
rs2221108: G = more likely to be homosexual, A = average likelihood
rs2221108: G = more likely to be homosexual, A = average likelihood
Neat, and another same voice from the US... and apparently a fellow r1b1b2a1a2d? Well I have an *... Cool though! Howdy Cuz!

Fire Haired,

A Polish feminist from the Congress of Women - professor Monika Płatek - would disagree with you. She said: :)

Quote:

"In homosexual marriages as many children are born, and often more, than in heterosexual marriages."

Source (in Polish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0qmuBSGUog#t=4m38s

NwKXNav.gif


Maybe in lesbian marriages, but obviously not in gay marriages.
That's because gay R1bs have a higher rate of R1b sons... it's a vicious cycle and soon we will no longer be able to reproduce! (kidding!) I would not be offended if they did a study to prove/disprove a link...

I don't get why you're so happy to mention that homosexuality caused population reduction in some ancient Greeks or that it was popular. Because it is clear most of these "homosexuals" were not actually homosexual, especially in Sparta. Circumstances caused them to pervert their sexuality. Prison does the same thing. It helps cause people to be homosexual. If humans were naturally so homosexual, we wouldn't exist!! It'll be difficult to find any population so homosexual or bisexual.

Saying "I think some people are born gay and should be treated with respect" is differnt from "That's awesome, a guy who claims to be gay left his wife and family. Hell yeah!! The Spartans almost went extinct because they were so gay. Yeah, awesome!!". You tread too much towards this second time to a point that it gets creepy.
That's surprising and interesting. A population that won't reproduce, scary. IMO, it is the result of their circumstances. I don't think it's representative of any norm. Just like circumstance in prison leads to homosexuality. If isolated for years, people will likely resort or sticks or animals or whatever.
LeBrock is right... Spartans basically had state institutionalized homosexuality... Soldiers had young boy apprentices... As you say, they were away from home a lot, and for long periods of time, but they seemed to engage in homosexual sex pretty voluntarily...

How wonderfully scientific!
LOL... Another member of "Americans For Sense" chiming in!

And of course R1b is prevalent in these countries. There has been no study for the numbers to introduce you to figures but an average person can deduct from the experience that a Germanic folk is a lot more likely to be homosexual than a non Germanic one.
Some of those ancient Europeans certainly had a greater affinity for the horse!

edit: why has my post gone so narrow? tried to fix it....
 
How did you figure I was happy?! I just stated a historical fact. Stop assuming.

Lies. You're clearly very happy to discuss rare examples of an naturally high frequency of homosexuality. You chose to discuss those rare cases because of your bias. Stop lying, man.

What circumstances?! If anything they were the only free citizens of sparta. The rest of population was enslaved and worked for them. They were free warrior society.
Can you point us to statistics about level of homosexuality in prisons. Or you only know about this rampant prison homosexuality from Hollywood movies and internet stories?

"What circumstances?" Are you kidding? Um...., being surrounded by only men for years. If a man doesn't ejaculate for a few months straight, he'll get blue balls. It's unhealthy. Humans have to be sexually-stimulated on a regular basis. If there's no women around, they resort to the closest thing a human woman, a human man.

Any society where most men are homosexual, clearly is in circumstances which leads to sexual-perversion. Yes Sexual perversion, exists! The science of Sex is male-female. We need it to reproduce. So, any group of humans where most are homosexual, won't last long and their genes won't be passed down.

Perhaps when you remove your emotions and prejudices you will start understand how it works. Just because you are emotional about this issue it doesn't mean I am. I'm completely impartial.

LOL. A dude left his family and kids because he thinks he's gay, and you assume he's biologically gay and has every right to end a life-long commitment he made to his wife? First you should condemn and question him. Anyone who suddenly leaves their spouse, should be condemned, because they made a commitment.You should first ask: "If you are gay, why did you get married?" And how do I know if you're gay? You had consensual sex with your wife, there were definitely two-way feelings between you and your wife. Did you love your wife? If not, did you actually believe you could fake a marriage for social acceptance?"

The fact you didn't ask any of these questions, to me proves you're bias.

Lebrok, could you imagine faking being attracted to a man and having sex with him? Didn't think so. That life would be hell. Any married man who claims to be gay, can't be completely gay, he must have some attraction to women.
 
680px-Same_sex_marriage_map_Europe_detailed.svg.png

Updated. There are civil unions for gay couples in Greece since last year. That's good for me although I don't really care to be frank. Countries with red = Constitution limits marriages only to opposite sex couples (!)
All those countries are ex-Communist countries, by the way. So, @FireHaired, maybe Communism is the right solution for US. Lol. There will be no gay marriages or civil unions, even in the post-Communist era (There will be a Fall, unavoidably).
 
Any society where most men are homosexual, clearly is in circumstances which leads to sexual-perversion. Yes Sexual perversion, exists! The science of Sex is male-female. We need it to reproduce. So, any group of humans where most are homosexual, won't last long and their genes won't be passed down.

So far there is no such thing and never have been a society were most are homosexual. Societies were lost or destroyed because of aggressive war, and many men lost in battle so the female population outnumbered that of males sometimes by huge numbers. Whole societies were destroyed or reduced by famine or disease, but not with the absurdity that Men became homosexuals.

"What circumstances?" Are you kidding? Um...., being surrounded by only men for years. If a man doesn't ejaculate for a few months straight, he'll get blue balls. It's unhealthy. Humans have to be sexually-stimulated on a regular basis. If there's no women around, they resort to the closest thing a human woman, a human man.

Another fallacy. The scrotum never gets blue due to semen accumulation. The normality is to get wet dreams or otherwise it will be reabsorbed into the system. Heterosexual males who are attracted to the opposite sex will usually get kinky dreams of women (not men) during the process. Then there is the process of masturbation where the same happens. A Heterosexual male effortlessly will have female images in the process. Firehead, do you ever get worried that some day you might become a homosexual? This has never ever been a problem with genuine heterosexuals I spoke openly with so I am really not sure how the whole subject fascinates you so much and perceive it enough. I personally went through many years in my younger days being attracted to the same sex and not being able to express myself. However the lack of interaction did not prompt me to have sex with a woman. And I always knew what excited me. Never had a problem with it accept that due the ignorance of the time it was a very lonely thing for a while as I thought I was the only person in the world with such attractions. According to your logic I should have had sex with women.

"If you are gay, why did you get married?"

And I believe after all these pages written on homosexuality and the REALITY of persecution you still believe that social pressure and the environment and the psyche of many societies will leave no choice but for a homosexual to marry some one of the other sex (some times to please a bullying environment including Religions and dominant parents were siblings are totally dependent on. This also happens on a large scale in America by the way (the land of freedom). With all respect this just shows you really have no concept of real situations in life and just thrive on fantasies from the fragments of your own imagination, turning them to realities and making them fact.

If you are not a homosexual like me, how come you are so sure of what you state? Have you ever heard of honour killings? Arranged marriages? social pressures (often pushed by parents too?) you think its a joke? Have you never heard of parents even in the most liberal countries since a young age threaten their kids of family disgrace and being disowned? This is still a reality today. Do you really think that all homosexuals in the world (including the USA) have total freedom to live their life as they wish without any interference from society or the state or the country they live in? and just choose to marry a women just because its cool and they want to try it out? Get informed.
 

This thread has been viewed 114768 times.

Back
Top