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Thread: E1a1, Jews and Natufians?

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    E1a1, Jews and Natufians?

    Hi, I'm new at the forum and I'm very interested in anthropology and genetics as mosts members of this forum are.
    I've tested with 23andme 2 years ago and found out to my biggest surprise that I'm E1a1 on the Y-chromosome.
    As I've researched more info about the hg., it seems that it is most common in West Africa and particularly among the Dogon of Mali(reaching 44% in its male population).
    I'm of Ashkenazi Jewish descent from Romania on my dad's side so it certainly came as a big surprise to me.
    But it seems that the lineage has been found in other Jews from Eastern Europe, as well as in Lebanon, Algeria, Morocco, Spain, Italy and even Britain
    at low frequencies.
    So I was wondering if such a marker has anything to do with the Natufian Neolithic culture of the Levant as some of the skulls associated with this particular culture have been described as Sub-Saharan-like.
    If anyone on this forum has any opinion about this mysterious hg. share your opinion.
    Cheers.
    PS: It seems other SSA-like Y-DNA hgs. have been found in pretty much all the countries cited above such as A3b2,A1a*, or even E1b1a(not to mention all the mtDNA L lineages found as well).

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    after the ice ages, there were only 2 migrations from Africa to SW Asia : E-V13 some 14000 years ago and E-M123/E-M34, the proto-semitic migration 5500 years ago
    your forfathers must have joined 1 of these 2, and gotten into the Balkans from the Levant/Anatolia later

    both migrators aren't the Natufians, the Natufians allready consumed seeds of wild grasses 20000 years ago in Ohalo, near Lake Tiberias

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    after the ice ages, there were only 2 migrations from Africa to SW Asia : E-V13 some 14000 years ago and E-M123/E-M34, the proto-semitic migration 5500 years ago
    I have read articles saying E-v13 is native European and its parent clade came from SW Asia (but maybe that's what you meant). do you have sources on E-M123?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    First you can check the page on Y-haplogroup E here in eupedia, there are several theories.

    I believe E-V13 came to SW Asia 14000 years ago :
    check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture at the bottom :
    Notes[edit]

    Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4]Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]

    this migration fits with the fact that till some 15000 years ago the Nile valley was densely popultated, and by 2000 years later it was virtually deserted
    the reason : climate change in Africa, start of the wet period
    till 15000 years ago the White Nile was blocked by sand dunes, leaving the Nile as a marsh, and interesting ecotope for humans
    after the White Nile started flowing again, the Nile was a wild river, the valey became unhabitable for some 5000 years

    E-V13 belongs to the E-M78 clade
    E-V13 was probalby not very succesfull in SW Asia, there is not much of them left there
    But E-V13 must have been with the first who starting agriculture from SW Asia (some 8500 - 9000 year ago) and he must have been succesfull there

    As for E-M123/E-M34 , check proto semitic languages on google or wikipedia
    E-M34 is considered the Semitic clade. 5500 years ago they came from Africa. In the southern levant they met the Arab clade , J1-P58. Arabs joined and took over their language.
    E-M123/E-M34 were pastoralist nomads
    After this migration, 5500 years ago , semitic people like Akkadians and Amorites appeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post

    As for E-M123/E-M34 , check proto semitic languages on google or wikipedia
    E-M34 is considered the Semitic clade. 5500 years ago they came from Africa. In the southern levant they met the Arab clade , J1-P58. Arabs joined and took over their language.
    E-M123/E-M34 were pastoralist nomads
    After this migration, 5500 years ago , semitic people like Akkadians and Amorites appeared.
    I see theories that proto-Semites came 5500 ygo in the Levant, but I don't see mentioned E-m34/123 as being them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I see theories that proto-Semites came 5500 ygo in the Levant, but I don't see mentioned E-m34/123 as being them.
    read 'the distribution of E' here on Eupedia

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    The story of E-M123 might be a bit more complicated. It has probably entered Europe in the Stone Age.
    Taken from Semino et al. (2004), quote:

    The very low frequency of E-M123 in Ethiopia does not allow any inferences about the origin of this clade. The network of E-M78 and that of E-M123 are in agreement with the hypothesis of their ancient presence in the Near East and their subsequent expansion into the southern Balkans. The divergence time (TD) (Zhivotovsky 2001) between the Near East and European lineages has been estimated to a range of 7–14 thousand years (ky) ago. Cinnioğlu et al. (2004) found a high degree of variance of E-M123 in Turkey, which has been interpreted as being due to multiple founders rather than a single early dispersal event that has remained geographically circumscribed.

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    In one of the threads I pegged E to Natufians. They were not full farmers yet, but very heavy consumers of wild wheats. I called them Harvesters, as they didn't seed but only harvested. They moved into Balkans first before true farmers of hg G did. E got assimilated very quickly into farming communities of G thanks to already being half farmers. Much easier and earlier than assimilation of Hunter-Gatherers happened in South Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashken...zar_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar...enazi_ancestry

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashken...zar_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar...enazi_ancestry
    If not mistaken Ashkenazi Jews are a mixture of genetically original Jewish diaspora from Palestine proper creating a group of converts and also intermarriages with Central European People over hundred of years. The original Jews of the Middle east would probably be very close to other semites in the area. Jewish history goes back much further then the Ashkenazi term.

    ~~~~ Oh I just realised you posted same thing on 7 threads

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashken...zar_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar...enazi_ancestry
    That is not necessarily true, there are people who are Middle Eastern who are light skinned and have blond/light brown hair, it is more rare but does exist, there is not one Semitic look, it would be equivalent to saying all europeans look the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    If not mistaken Ashkenazi Jews are a mixture of genetically original Jewish diaspora from Palestine proper creating a group of converts and also intermarriages with Central European People over hundred of years. The original Jews of the Middle east would probably be very close to other semites in the area. Jewish history goes back much further then the Ashkenazi term.

    ~~~~ Oh I just realised you posted same thing on 7 threads
    Official language of Israel is germanic Yiddish language!!!

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The official language of Israel is Hebrew, not Yiddish.

    You obviously know nothing about Jewish groups who never spoke Yiddish such as the Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The official language of Israel is Hebrew, not Yiddish.

    You obviously know nothing about Jewish groups who never spoke Yiddish such as the Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews.
    It is not true. Official language of Israel is pseudo-"Hebrew" and it is real Yiddish language .
    You din't visit Israel, I yes.
    Jews in Israel speak germanic
    Yiddish language with small number Hebrew words.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    "The main languages used for communication among Israeli citizens are Modern Hebrew and Arabic, while English, second language of the majority of the Israeli population, is used widely in official logos, road signs and product labels."

    You apparently don't see signs in Yiddish...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel#/media/File:Languages_of_Israel.jpeg

    "Hebrew and Arabic are the official languages of Israel....Today, Hebrew is the official language used in government, commerce,Knesset debates, court sessions, schools, and universities."

    "
    According to a 2011 Government Social Survey of Israelis over 20 years of age, 49% report Hebrew as their native language, Arabic 18%, Russian 15%,Yiddish 2%, French 2%, English 2%,[1] 1.6% Spanish, and 10% other languages (including Romanian, German and Amharic, which were not offered as answers by the survey). "

    "
    Use of Yiddish, which was the main competitor prior to World War II, was discouraged,[7] and the number of Yiddish speakers declined as the older generations died out. However, Yiddish is still often used in Ashkenazi haredi communities worldwide, and is sometimes the first language for the members of the Hasidic branches of such communities."

    "
    The language of Ashkenazi Jews in the diaspora and the second most widely spoken Jewish language, Yiddish is a Germanic language, but incorporates elements of Hebrew. Banned in theatres, movies and other cultural activities during Israel's early statehood, Yiddish has undergone a cultural revival in recent years. Furthermore, Yiddish has always and is still regularly used in some haredi Ashkenazi communities. However, despite state-sponsored initiatives for preserving Yiddish culture, the number of Yiddish-speaking Israelis is in decline as older generations of Ashkenazi Jews pass away."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel


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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You obviously know nothing about Jewish groups who never spoke Yiddish such as the Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews.
    Non-Ashkenazi Jews are in Israel (and Israel government) subhuman. Israel is most racist country of the world. It is neo-nazist country

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Official language of Israel is Neo-Hebrew language, no Hebrew language. It is the youngest language of the world!!.

    I learned Hebrew language for Bible translation, and it is prehistory language very inarticulate, vague and inapplicable for communication in 21. century. And Yiddish is pseudo-Hebrew language with Hebrew font. For example Yiddish in wikipedia


    https://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95...A7%D7%90%D7%9F

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The fact that vocabulary for the modern era was added to "modernize" the Hebrew that Jews had used for the 2000 years of the diaspora for religious purposes doesn't mean it isn't still Hebrew and it doesn't make Yiddish the "official language" of Israel now does it, contrary to your assertion upthread.

    Yiddish is a dying language spoken mainly by very old people and by some Hasids.

    I see we have someone else who doesn't understand the difference between a "script", and a language.

    Regardless, this is all off topic. This is a genetics thread, not a linguistic thread. All further off topic posts will be removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    Official language of Israel is Neo-Hebrew language, no Hebrew language. It is the youngest language of the world!!.

    I learned Hebrew language for Bible translation, and it is prehistory language very inarticulate, vague and inapplicable for communication in 21. century. And Yiddish is pseudo-Hebrew language with Hebrew font. For example Yiddish in wikipedia


    https://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95...A7%D7%90%D7%9F
    Get real dude. Stop creating your own definitions, the augmented reality visions of yours (poster Vedun), or you won't be able to understand the world and world will never understand you.

    According to your "definition" there must be no slovakian language, because most of vocabulary is of foreign origin. Latin, English, French, German, Russian, Polish, you name it... But guess what, the base of it is still Slovak, the grammar is Slovak, most of everyday vocabulary is Slovak, and is based on old Slavic. It makes sense to call it Slovak language.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    LeBrok: thank you very much for your interesting note.
    In English Wikipedia before 2 years wrote, that official language of Israel is Neo-Hebrew, no Hebrew. Neo-Hebrew is synthetic language.
    Slovak language exist hundreds years, but Neo-Hebrew exist only a few decades.
    Hebrew language was disappeared before Christ. Jesus spoken Aramaic language, not Hebrew
    Last edited by Sloven-Vened; 26-09-16 at 17:38.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashken...zar_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar...enazi_ancestry
    Khazars were a Turkic people in the Volga region 1200 years ago, Yiddish is a Germanic language however by no means does that make its speakers Germans, unless you're willing to say Congolese are French and Nigerians are Englishmen

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    John Doe
    Thank you very much.
    In Israel is o lot of jews with very white skin and with light brown or blonde hair, or blue eyes. Is not possible, that this man to by Semite.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There are also very many Ashkenazim with swarthy skins and dark hair.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The skin reflectance study by Jablonski and Chaplin had Israel as dark-skinned as Lebanon.

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    Are these musings devoid of citations and quotes from the papers supposed to be about all Jews or just Ashkenazim?

    Did the study about "Israelis" include Israeli Arabs, Mizrahis, "Sephardim", who are usually North African Jews, what exactly?

    You guys are aware there are Jews other than Ashkenazi Jews in the world, yes? If you're going to quote a study please provide a citation that explains the nature of the sample.

    People also have a distorted idea of the appearance of even Arab Israelis; there is variation among them.


    As to the Ashkenazim in Israel, there's no better example than the Ultra-Orthodox community, because they frown on intermarriage even if the non-Jewish partner converts. So, no three-quarter Russian people.






    Oh, and stop hiding behind your umpteenth fake name and revolving IP address, "Vened". You really should stop picking eastern European identities. You're giving them a bad name.

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