Politics Will European Union Survive?

the referendum was madness, playing on emotions, proving once more the stupidity of the voting mass

but if the EU would have been a lean and mean machine using common sense and not a big bureacratic tax money consuming organisation for the benefit of the politicians planning their pensions, none of this would have happened

the EU should be reengineered from ground zero, and everybody in this big organisation should be sacked and have to apply again to be evaluated whether he/she is beneficial for Europe or not, I think very few would be hired again

I'm very pessimistic, I suspect the EU will be damaged but it will survive in its present useless lame form
I want the EU to survive, but not in its present form
 
I still believe in the EU idea,
I know that fiscal union must be done one day,
but is the EU of 60's 70's 90's?

IS THIS EU FOR HER PEOPLE OR FOR CORPORATIONS? and silly ORGANISATIONS?

a non govermental organisation makes trafficking at Greece with Turkey,
they take peoples money and taxes, by giving rags as blankets, as humanitarian aid,
then we do not send them back, cause some corporations benefit from that,
we keep them 5-8 years to Greece or Italy, and we cheer at every activist that makes what his mind tells about,
he teach him to work without insurance and almost for free,
then other trafficking organisations like the one british Cox had , takes him, semieducated and semi specialized at tomatoe gathering and takes him to Belgium France Netherlands britain etc,
and they promote him to sweap the roads, under a neurotic muscular boss that takes the job from a mayor,
or to wash dishes from a meal that cost more than 100 E a sum that he gather at 2 months,
is that how we expect to assimilate them?

and all that rich from 'immigrant slaves' goes where? to people? to citizens?
No they already do not own their properties and jobs etc,
they only work to pay taxes and penalties, cause some 'smart' politicians give money to such organisations, and some other take loans from bankers, no matter the cost, cause they will not pay them,
the middle class will do that,

Is this the EU we want or dreamed at 50's?

can a European give correct borders of EU?
 
Globalist elite have let greed dictate policy and the plebes are now awake. Awake and angry.

true and wise words,

and now what we have?
1) either to change the globalists,
2)either to change the plebes and bring new (immigrants)

the voting analysis at UK is clear,
original English vote exit by reaching >60 % at some areas
Muslim immigrant English vote remain at >70 % at London
 
Ed. Another interesting factor is that all of the negative press about Brexit couldn't swing the vote.

Indeed, Obama, Beckham, Religious authorities, Heads of financial institutions, Economists, most artists and more all lobbied for remain....even the murder of Jo Cox, one would have thought would influence the vote. It might be only nearly a 2% lead, but having all these heavy weights suggesting/advising for a remain vote, its a much bigger win then the number it represents. Just to keep with the subject, I believe the EU will survive one way or another at any rate.

As you well said and being familiar with British (more English) psyche, they never ever really felt part of Europe probably through relatively history of owing the greatest empire in the world and very often got the feeling that the UK is like an entity on its own. So in all honesty I am not sure why people are so shocked. If anything and as Lebrok age / voting pattern suggests is, that younger people in reality seem to have warmed up much more to a European project then their older peers. The initial entry of Britain in the EU was when it was EEC which was different then it is today and much more of an economic Union. I truly believe that if the referendum has taken place say 10 years ago we would have seen a much bigger win for the leave campaign.
 
@ maleth

do you know the story of Cox? her organisation, the refrigator truck, and the call to NY?
to some British, she was a hero
to some other British, a trafficker, that spread unemployment to locals
 
I'm not sure if EU was more insensitive than most national governments. I think that pendulum has swung towards conservatism and nationalism these days due to slow economy, terrorism and too much immigration. In a decade the populous mood might be way different.
There might be unforeseen circumstances though. Possibly Scotland and North Ireland will separate from GB and jon EU instead? If city of London could have done it they would.


Voting by demographics:
median.png


Cls7vB7WkAATVNI.jpg

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...fferent-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

The smart and the young wanted to stay in.

I would say it's a fair assertion to claim that the young wanted to stay in, but this analysis at the end here of "the young and the smart" is quite weak and misses the global trend that is taking place across almost all western countries.

First I want to say that I've seen your posts here Lebrok, it's obvious to me you are an intelligent individual. So there is no need on your part to pretend intelligence or "smarts" is the equivalent of not receiving a higher education. I point this out because it completely misses the point of a very important trend taking place, one which is much more highly correlated with income, the factor you failed to comment on. Western Countries are facing an identity crisis whithin their own populations, the split of which is being created by the two very different lifestyles created by those who have wealth and those without it in an increasingly globalized world.


The upper class establishment of western countries favor the status quo which produces their authority, wealth and lifestyle. They are reared in a much more globalized environment compared to a person of the working class. They grow up in large multi cultural cities without much interaction with the native population other than other people of the upper class.(who may or may not be foreign themselves) When they go on vacation they do not go to the countryside but to foreign countries. These same foreign countries are the places where their families wealth is created. He finds the other elites of Madrid, Berlin, Paris, New York, Los Angeles more familiar to him than his countrymen living in the suburbs around the city he was born.


The working class perspective is much different. Take immigration for example. When an immigrant moves into the country, he moves into the traditional neighborhood of the working class man. The working class man now sees the area he grew up in become a foreign place. He has to compete with this new immigrant for a job and access to healthcare. He has to deal with the crime the immigrants commit in his community which no longer resembles that of his childhood. He has to watch his own culture of the place he called home change before his eyes. Meanwhile the upper class man never experiences any of these factors, they live in a globalized world sheltered from the repercussions the working man has to live with. The upper class man never developed the same sense of home, culture and nationality as the working class man. His culture is that of his class, his home is where he can obtain more wealth and therefore his nationality is global


The elitist education of the upper class leads them to believe they know best for everyone, including the working class of their own country which they know almost nothing about other than that these people "are living in the past". The truth is both groups are living in the same present and that this present has created two very different worlds for people with money and those who work to obtain it. Western countries are now split between the wealthy establishment enforcing a globalist outlook which drives their profit and a resentful working class reacting to the elites in their country ignoring their existence. The only reason we are seeing a shift toward the right wing tendencies is because the elites are now made up of the left, albeit a capitalistic left. The deeper fissure that has created this move toward the right is actually a populist/elitist divide and it's important to understand this.


The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?




Of course I am writing in a biased fashion in favor of the populist outlook. But can anyone blame me when the elites have so thoroughly neglected the opinions of the average citizen in favor for what they stubbornly believe is best for everyone else when in reality they are only self serving?
 
@Yetos,

Never heard that to be honest. This is what I read about the murderer "[FONT=&quot]West Yorkshire Police says the mental health of the man who killed Jo Cox as well as his alleged right-wing links are clear lines of inquiry into the fatal attack on the Labour Party MP. Here’s more from Dee Collins, the temporary chief constable" [/FONT] what is it about the refrigerated truck?
 
The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?

This is pretty tough to disagree with, regardless of what one feels towards the sentiments discussed themselves.

Even if the needs and desires of the proletariat were partially in their own minds alone, blowing them off as stupid and racist reaps predictable rewards.
 
@Yetos,

Never heard that to be honest. This is what I read about the murderer "West Yorkshire Police says the mental health of the man who killed Jo Cox as well as his alleged right-wing links are clear lines of inquiry into the fatal attack on the Labour Party MP. Here’s more from Dee Collins, the temporary chief constable" what is it about the refrigerated truck?


I will send you email,
 
Indeed, Obama, Beckham, Religious authorities, Heads of financial institutions, Economists, most artists and more all lobbied for remain....even the murder of Jo Cox, one would have thought would influence the vote. It might be only nearly a 2% lead, but having all these heavy weights suggesting/advising for a remain vote, its a much bigger win then the number it represents. Just to keep with the subject, I believe the EU will survive one way or another at any rate.

As you well said and being familiar with British (more English) psyche, they never ever really felt part of Europe probably through relatively history of owing the greatest empire in the world and very often got the feeling that the UK is like an entity on its own. So in all honesty I am not sure why people are so shocked. If anything and as Lebrok age / voting pattern suggests is, that younger people in reality seem to have warmed up much more to a European project then their older peers. The initial entry of Britain in the EU was when it was EEC which was different then it is today and much more of an economic Union. I truly believe that if the referendum has taken place say 10 years ago we would have seen a much bigger win for the leave campaign.

My reading of the history is that Britain pursued its empire abroad and in Europe it had a policy of balance of power. It was predicated on a belief that Britain would only be secure if no single continental power took control of all of Europe. Who knows if young English people are even taught this any more in school, and even if it is taught they may not care, but for older people this distrust of the continental powers may still resonate. I've been listening to English politicians who campaigned for Brexit and there is certainly an echo of that in the things they're saying.

Also, as I said, Britain's participation was always rather half-hearted. They stayed out of the Euro, which turned out to be a good idea.

I've always had a great deal of respect for the British sense of realpolitik.

These same politicians seem to rather hope they can strengthen their ties with the U.S. (and with all the other "Anglo" countries as well), in which case it's a good idea that Obama is leaving since he came down heavily on them remaining in the Union.
 
Laughing at the bias of Sky news... Almost as see through as our MSNBC.
 
A note to the people of England ... Relax all will be well. Look to Iceland for a proper path forward.
 
A note to the people of England ... Relax all will be well. Look to Iceland for a proper path forward.

There is Norway and Switzerland too. Iceland not the best model. However they all have different type of economies and Britain's outcome can be different. Only time will tell. I bet most people do not know the real implications. Britian had mass migration (Asia / Africa) from all around the empire MANY years before it joined the EU and its not a new phenomena. I wish Britain well, but I hope if things go sour, they will not blame Brussels for it, and who ever promised Utopia will be held responsible without finding scapegoats. Now its just a matter of time. I consider it an experiment, like many others we had through the centuries. Wether we like it or not the world has changed since the hay days of ruling a big chunk of the Earth. And the commonwealth is merely a symbolic group of Ex colonies with hardly any economic significance. What we really know is that Britain has become much wealthier since it joined the EU. Whats going to happen now is just a closed box.
 
Point of clarification-- in no way do I hold Brussels or any area of Germany responsible for the implementation of the EU.
 
My reading of the history is that Britain pursued its empire abroad and in Europe it had a policy of balance of power. It was predicated on a belief that Britain would only be secure if no single continental power took control of all of Europe. Who knows if young English people are even taught this any more in school, and even if it is taught they may not care, but for older people this distrust of the continental powers may still resonate. I've been listening to English politicians who campaigned for Brexit and there is certainly an echo of that in the things they're saying.

Also, as I said, Britain's participation was always rather half-hearted. They stayed out of the Euro, which turned out to be a good idea.

I've always had a great deal of respect for the British sense of realpolitik.

These same politicians seem to rather hope they can strengthen their ties with the U.S. (and with all the other "Anglo" countries as well), in which case it's a good idea that Obama is leaving since he came down heavily on them remaining in the Union.


Maybe the commonwealth will be strengthened too although globalisation would need more friends and allies and working in bigger blocks seem to give better leverage in negotiations. Time will tell. I consider it as an experiment. We know the past but no one knows the future. The real change is going to come if Le pan keeps breaking ground in France, as that would really shake the foundations of the EU to a point of no return, mix that with someone like Trump at the helm of the strongest country in the world. Then we have a new world order.....probably a case of history repeating itself. It happened time and time again through the course of world history, we are clearly moving that way.
 
Perform the same visa policy to Britain as Turkey. They will start to talk to get in EU, in 6 months and after one year, they will probably held another referendum. :grin:
 

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