Politics Will European Union Survive?

Perform the same visa policy to Britain as Turkey. They will start to talk to get in EU, in 6 months and after one year, they will probably held another referendum. :grin:

punishing those who leave the EU are a bad argument for the EU
countries should stay in the EU for the benefits it brings, not for fear of punishment of those who leave
 
Certainly the situation looks better now than 75 years ago. But, BUT!, I think the situation is POTENTIALY much worse than before. We are all seated on an economical volcano! In fact, most of the European States are in complete Bankruptcy situation partly because of the Euro and reponsability dilution. Our economical situation is very very instable and much more fragile than before then this could get worse very quickly and worse than ever.
 
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the second video is a propaganda video made by todays EU politicians
todays EU politicians are a far cry from the great post war politicians that formed the EU

Propaganda usually means giving false or misleading information. Do you sincerely find much of that?
 
I would say it's a fair assertion to claim that the young wanted to stay in, but this analysis at the end here of "the young and the smart" is quite weak and misses the global trend that is taking place across almost all western countries.
Certainly I used it as a quick cheap shot, because of lack of time to dive into this complex situation. However there is big dose of truth in it.
First I want to say that I've seen your posts here Lebrok, it's obvious to me you are an intelligent individual. So there is no need on your part to pretend intelligence or "smarts" is the equivalent of not receiving a higher education. I point this out because it completely misses the point of a very important trend taking place, one which is much more highly correlated with income, the factor you failed to comment on. Western Countries are facing an identity crisis whithin their own populations, the split of which is being created by the two very different lifestyles created by those who have wealth and those without it in an increasingly globalized world.
I thought it was implied that smart equals educated and this equals higher income. It also implies a statistical person as we won't bother discussion individual cases of some smart but without higher degrees, or inherited wealth rich people.


The upper class establishment of western countries favor the status quo which produces their authority, wealth and lifestyle. They are reared in a much more globalized environment compared to a person of the working class. They grow up in large multi cultural cities without much interaction with the native population other than other people of the upper class.(who may or may not be foreign themselves) When they go on vacation they do not go to the countryside but to foreign countries. These same foreign countries are the places where their families wealth is created. He finds the other elites of Madrid, Berlin, Paris, New York, Los Angeles more familiar to him than his countrymen living in the suburbs around the city he was born.
There is not even a smallest guarantee that separated GB will improve lives of working class.

The working class perspective is much different. Take immigration for example. When an immigrant moves into the country, he moves into the traditional neighborhood of the working class man. The working class man now sees the area he grew up in become a foreign place. He has to compete with this new immigrant for a job and access to healthcare. He has to deal with the crime the immigrants commit in his community which no longer resembles that of his childhood. He has to watch his own culture of the place he called home change before his eyes. Meanwhile the upper class man never experiences any of these factors, they live in a globalized world sheltered from the repercussions the working man has to live with. The upper class man never developed the same sense of home, culture and nationality as the working class man. His culture is that of his class, his home is where he can obtain more wealth and therefore his nationality is global
I don't think this has anything to do with classes. For last few decades you could be a working class and travel a lot, use internet to see the world and meet people online, watch international TV, etc. In my life I went through all the classes, except the upper class, and I never felt alienated or isolated from the world. It is more about attitude and understanding than economic status.
Age statistics confirm this too. Look at statistics of voting, young versus old generation. Young people feel more like citizens of EU. They grew up in more open and inclusive world, the old generation didn't.

The elitist education of the upper class leads them to believe they know best for everyone, including the working class of their own country which they know almost nothing about other than that these people "are living in the past". The truth is both groups are living in the same present and that this present has created two very different worlds for people with money and those who work to obtain it. Western countries are now split between the wealthy establishment enforcing a globalist outlook which drives their profit and a resentful working class reacting to the elites in their country ignoring their existence. The only reason we are seeing a shift toward the right wing tendencies is because the elites are now made up of the left, albeit a capitalistic left. The deeper fissure that has created this move toward the right is actually a populist/elitist divide and it's important to understand this.
That's how some people (socio economists) are trying to explain the situation, but i'm not convinced it is true, or effect of "dissatisfaction of working class" is very minimal in total political spectrum to produce substantial effect. More below.

The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?
The return to conservatism and isolationism comes from few factors. First one, it exists in all of us and it gets unleashed due to external circumstances, like being threatened or dissatisfied. In recent years we have rise of IS and quite few terrorists attacks in the West, followed by overwhelming waves of immigrants/strangers. There has been also a prolonged economic crisis which created many dissatisfied groups in population. It is natural to blame the others for own misfortune. There are always the Mexicans, Syrians, the rich, politicians, Chinese, Jews, ruling elite, media, social libertarians, masons, capitalists, bankers, etc
It doesn't matter if the scared and the dissatisfied are right or wrong, they always react in same isolationist and conservative way.
I don't mean conservative as a political term, but as a natural state of human psyche, which makes you prefer to stay with the things and people you know and grew up with. And away from the new, the strange and what you don't understand. Typical "protect your tribe" instinct, and very strong in many people.




Of course I am writing in a biased fashion in favor of the populist outlook. But can anyone blame me when the elites have so thoroughly neglected the opinions of the average citizen in favor for what they stubbornly believe is best for everyone else when in reality they are only self serving?
Average citizen has better life than ever. It is fatter than ever, drives a better car than ever, has bigger fridge than ever, bigger and prettier home than ever, cheaper vacations than ever, cheaper cloths than ever, bigger TV than ever, and walks around with cellphone/computer/gps/maps/internet/email/TV/music/HD video camera/notes/wallet, etc. Technology which would cost 2 million dollars 30 years ago, and some didn't exist. Middle class kids don't rush to work anymore, but linger around houses as long as they can. Life is good for middle class.
 
Aren't you contradicting yourself?
Not at all. The situation looks , appears to be peacefull but in fact, the sovereign debts of the European States are a real threat and potentialy very grave and harmfull.
 
Not at all. The situation looks , appears to be peacefull but in fact, the sovereign debts of the European States are a real threat and potentialy very grave and harmfull.
Are you equating 60 million Europeans killed, cities in ruins, during WW2 to financial problems of today's Europe?!!!
 
punishing those who leave the EU are a bad argument for the EU
countries should stay in the EU for the benefits it brings, not for fear of punishment of those who leave

If you give the benefits before get in the EU, of cource Norway-Switzerland and UK won't see any benefits which they can have it after get in the EU.

German and French tax payers give their money to develop Mediterreanean and East part of Europe, but those countries???
 
If you give the benefits before get in the EU, of cource Norway-Switzerland and UK won't see any benefits which they can have it after get in the EU.

German and French tax payers give their money to develop Mediterreanean and East part of Europe, but those countries???


partially correct,
but they have also easy markets, no custom taxes, and secure profit,
cause they sell at these countries,
THE DIFFICULT TODAY IS NOT TO MAKE PRODUCTION, IS TO FIND THE MARKET,
the economical crush of USA at early 20 century had that smell,

Besides, that secures that some Mediterennean countries will not make new 'economical' alliances,
so they pay, BUT THEY ALSO CONTROL

consider it Turkey with Azerbaizan,
Azerbaizan produces oil, but even today no matter so treaties only Turkey absorves it, and the most secure market of Turkey is Azerbaizan
 
Are you equating 60 million Europeans killed, cities in ruins, during WW2 to financial problems of today's Europe?!!!
Doing equation like that is irrelevant. It s more relevant to say that Economical disaster could trigger uncontroled situation of course even worse. I remind you that WWII was the consequence of 1929 economical crisis. You seem to think that the European sovereign Debts are a light problem.
 
Doing equation like that is irrelevant. It s more relevant to say that Economical disaster could trigger uncontroled situation of course even worse.
Keep in mind that you now compare facts of WW2 to fictional disaster in the future. We don't know if it is going to happen and if happens, how sever it will become. It is hard to compare and impossible to equate.
Perhaps you wanted to compare causes and not consequences? But again, we don't know if current economic situation is a cause of hypothetical disaster.


I remind you that WWII was the consequence of 1929 economical crisis. You seem to think that the European sovereign Debts are a light problem.
Actually crises ended in 1935 good few years before the war. Just before the war Germany was economical powerhouse of Europe again. The bigger reason for Germany to start WW2 was the defeat and humiliation of losing WW1 and many sanctions, restrictions and reparations they needed to pay. Let's not underestimate a role of psychopaths like Hitler and Stalin, having dictatorial powers, terror and monopoly on propaganda, sick ideologies, and leading their nations to expansion. One to rule the world by super race and weed it out of subhumans, the other to bring liberation and justice to working class of the world.
Mind you that these prerequisites of WW2 don't exist in today's Europe. Well, except ambitious dictator Putin, who hates EU. Britexit makes him very happy by the way. Though Russia is no economic disposition to start war with Nato. They have 3 trillion economy against 30 trillion economy of Nato countries.
 
...............................
The Telegraph said:
Three-fifths of Czechs said they were unhappy with EU membership and 62 percent said they would vote against it in a referendum, according to an October 2015 poll by the STEM agency.
"If Britain leaves the EU, we can expect debates about leaving the EU in a few years too,"

Source
 
Yes Oriental, it's been a long time.

I've returned from eupedia retirement to address this subject-- it is that important.
 
Actually crises ended in 1935 good few years before the war. Just before the war Germany was economical powerhouse of Europe again. The bigger reason for Germany to start WW2 was...

The reason why Germany became an economical powerhouse under Hitler is a much debated question. But the two major reasons are clear:

1. The preceding economic depression directly was the cause of 2), see next

2. Preparation for war is the standard economic stimulus if everything else fails. And this is what is repeating currently. The war preparation was the direct result of the preceding economic crisis, and the economic boom was the direct result of these war preparations. I'm aware that this is an inconvenient truth.

The credits for war preparations were available due to a financial trickery by Hjalmar Schacht, called "MEFO bills". It was an unofficial sort of currency, backed by trust in expected war profits. There is some resemblance with the current money printing going on since 2008, but it is not fully the same yet, because it is not so specifically war-oriented. But one should keep an eye on these developments, because it's very interesting. Also there was gold currency back then, making such extreme cheating necessary, while the fiat money of today already has some built-in cheating possibilities.

That being said, Hitler also got a lot of funding from all directions.
 
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Propaganda usually means giving false or misleading information. Do you sincerely find much of that?

giving very one-sided info is also propaganda to me
if you want to use another word for it, ok
 
Actually crises ended in 1935 good few years before the war. Just before the war Germany was economical powerhouse of Europe again. The bigger reason for Germany to start WW2 was the defeat and humiliation of losing WW1 and many sanctions, restrictions and reparations they needed to pay. Let's not underestimate a role of psychopaths like Hitler and Stalin, having dictatorial powers, terror and monopoly on propaganda, sick ideologies, and leading their nations to expansion. One to rule the world by super race and weed it out of subhumans, the other to bring liberation and justice to working class of the world.
Mind you that these prerequisites of WW2 don't exist in today's Europe. Well, except ambitious dictator Putin, who hates EU. Britexit makes him very happy by the way. Though Russia is no economic disposition to start war with Nato. They have 3 trillion economy against 30 trillion economy of Nato countries.

Germany was in a much deeper economical crisis than other countries, and they blaimed the harsh measurments after WW I for it.
Hittler got the credit for resolving the crisis and ignoring the sanctions imposed by the Versailles treaty.
That was why so many Germans unconditionally followed him.

I agree, it's a scenario that is not possible today.
 

Maybe the commonwealth will be strengthened too although globalisation would need more friends and allies and working in bigger blocks seem to give better leverage in negotiations. Time will tell. I consider it as an experiment. We know the past but no one knows the future. The real change is going to come if Le pan keeps breaking ground in France, as that would really shake the foundations of the EU to a point of no return, mix that with someone like Trump at the helm of the strongest country in the world. Then we have a new world order.....probably a case of history repeating itself. It happened time and time again through the course of world history, we are clearly moving that way.

No, the EU will be gone in five years time. In the papers they are saying the British want same deal they used to have with the EU with Australian and the kiwis instead. In terms of trade, they will look for all others who want to trade with them. Commonwealth is a good place to start...
 
conomy and people demand environmental reforms, and in order to do that they will have to invest in cleaner energy, i.e. natural gas, solar energy etc.
 

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