Bronze-age trade networks

There is also Polish word "brzeg" and Russian "bereg", possibly from old Slavic "breg", meaning "shore" or "edge". Who knows, maybe in proto IE "bhreg or bhirg" meant high bank on a river? Germanic could retain it as "berg" meaning bank or a mountain, and Slavic "breg" as a shore?

Breg or Brig means hill, nothing to do with rivers or shores.

shore is obala, edge is brid
 
Breg or Brig means hill, nothing to do with rivers or shores.

shore is obala, edge is brid
Are you sure words don't have more meanings than one?
How do you explain that in polish and russian "brzeg and берег" mean shore or edge? They both come from old slavic "брѣгъ".
 
Are you sure words don't have more meanings than one?
How do you explain that in polish and russian "brzeg and берег" mean shore or edge? They both come from old slavic "брѣгъ".

Breg = shore or edge in Albanian. Maybe it is borrowed or old IE word.
 
NFrank

well: correction of "correction" -
it was a fast superficial "work of mine
OK possible error concerning Brenner Pass (popular science?)I agree
for Bern-Verona I don't rely too much on foreign adaption but?...
thanks for amability
 
Logical scenario is that Venetic language is really Euganei language which means its Raetian language..........how else do we get Venetic, Camunic, norici, east Raetian and west Raetian languages to be ALL the very similar language. We do not expect the invading Veneti brought this language with them from Anatolia in 1200BC and taught all the alpine tribes this language...do we!
I am really not an expert in this respect - all I did was checking the name "Brenner" and stumbling over the German Wikipedia article on Tyrolian location names. Here is a short summary of what it says:
  1. Pre-IE Mediterranean level: Names on -ander, e.g. Schlanders/ Tirol, Salandra/ Basilicata, Mäandros river in Phrygia. Suffix -ix, as in the Adige/ Etsch (Atiks) river, or in the Latin borrowing larix (lark tree);
  2. Raetian, possibly related to Etrurian: Suffix -na, indicating origin or ownership, as in Brixen / Bressanone or Bozen/ Bolzano;
  3. East-Alpine IE: Everything that seems IE but cannot be explained by standard sound laws for Latin, Celtic or Germanic. Examples are Kortsch (from proto-IE "gherdh" = to enclose), Ziller (from proto-IE "kel"=to drive), Timme (from proto-IE "dhem"=steam), Tschars (from proto-IE "(s)ker"=to cut).
Plus, of course, the later layers of Continental Celtic (Noric etc.), Latin/Romanic (including Raeto-Romance languages, Friuli, Venetian etc.), German, and Slavic.

Aside from the facts that the relations between all these languages are heavily debated, even though we have very little material to base conclusions on, there seems to be agreement that East-Alpine IE aka Venetic was linguistically somewhere in-between Italic, Celtic and Germanic. It is of course tempting to attribute that language to the invading Veneti (which might have been Homer's Enetoi from Crimea, and give us a wonderful link to Steppe / Kurgan cultures), and ascribe the Pre-IE Mediterranean level to the Euganei. Or, the Euganei already spoke that language (it should be rather old, as it has preserved the original IE Media aspirate). No idea..
In any case, we know from Roman authors that the Vindelici around today's Augsburg (Castra Vindelicorum) - a name that appears quite "Venetian" - spoke Celtic when they were conquered by the Romans, and their language was different from the East-Alpine IE spoken by the Breuni around the Brenner. It seems language shifts around the Alps may occur quite fast, but traces of the older languages will always remain. I guess you, as Alpinoid, were already aware of this.
 
Just noticed a few possible simmilarities between proto-IE and Albanian.

East-Alpine IE
: Everything that seems IE but cannot be explained by standard sound laws for Latin, Celtic or Germanic. Examples are Kortsch (from proto-IE "gherdh" = to enclose),
gherdh = gardh in Alb.
Ziller (from proto-IE "kel"=to drive),
kel = kall in gheg Alb (cut, end, split)
Timme (from proto-IE "dhem"=steam),
dhem = tym in Alb.


Tschars (from proto-IE "(s)ker"=to cut).

ker = kre in Alb (comb, decimate, cut)
 
Just noticed a few possible simmilarities between proto-IE and Albanian.

gherdh = gardh in Alb.

kel = kall in gheg Alb (cut, end, split)

dhem = tym in Alb.

ker = kre in Alb (comb, decimate, cut)
Well, Albanian is an IE language after all..

Since you seem to understand Albanian, which isn't that common - is there any Albanian archaeological research relevant to this thread? I could imagine the Strait of Brindisi to already have been passed during the Bronze Age, and going from Thessaloniki to Durres overland might have been an attractive alternative to sailing around the Peloponnesus. Any evidence of early copper or salt mining in Albania?
 
is there any Albanian archaeological research relevant to this thread?
I'm sure there is, the area is full of bronze age artifacts; also some gold. This is something quick I could find...
http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=18

To connect it with Hallstat, I would point towards the Illyrian tribes, some of which had contacts with the Celts.
Any evidence of early copper or salt mining in Albania?
My knowledge is limited on this, but there is copper mines today and it is relatively near the surface or on the surface. In some large areas the soil is red from the ores.
 
I'm sure there is, the area is full of bronze age artifacts; also some gold. This is something quick I could find...
http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=18

To connect it with Hallstat, I would point towards the Illyrian tribes, some of which had contacts with the Celts.

My knowledge is limited on this, but there is copper mines today and it is relatively near the surface or on the surface. In some large areas the soil is red from the ores.

The area of your link, is close to the city of Appolonia, which has ancient Doric columns dating from 1400BC to 900BC, anthropologist Charleston Stevens Coon has compared apollonia columns etcto Sfakia columns etc in crete and they are the same .............and we know by history that the dorians replaced the minoans in crete.
Conclusion is as stated by many scholars, dorians held most of coastal and at least half the width of modern albania from 2000BC and their exodus (1100BC to 700BC ) into modern Greek lands. The area was then populated by firstly Epirotes, Molossians and Macedonians and lastly by pathini illyrians ( if this tribe is Illyrian is unsure) finally by albanians after the roman empire collapsed
 
I am really not an expert in this respect - all I did was checking the name "Brenner" and stumbling over the German Wikipedia article on Tyrolian location names. Here is a short summary of what it says:
  1. Pre-IE Mediterranean level: Names on -ander, e.g. Schlanders/ Tirol, Salandra/ Basilicata, Mäandros river in Phrygia. Suffix -ix, as in the Adige/ Etsch (Atiks) river, or in the Latin borrowing larix (lark tree);
  2. Raetian, possibly related to Etrurian: Suffix -na, indicating origin or ownership, as in Brixen / Bressanone or Bozen/ Bolzano;
  3. East-Alpine IE: Everything that seems IE but cannot be explained by standard sound laws for Latin, Celtic or Germanic. Examples are Kortsch (from proto-IE "gherdh" = to enclose), Ziller (from proto-IE "kel"=to drive), Timme (from proto-IE "dhem"=steam), Tschars (from proto-IE "(s)ker"=to cut).
Plus, of course, the later layers of Continental Celtic (Noric etc.), Latin/Romanic (including Raeto-Romance languages, Friuli, Venetian etc.), German, and Slavic.

Aside from the facts that the relations between all these languages are heavily debated, even though we have very little material to base conclusions on, there seems to be agreement that East-Alpine IE aka Venetic was linguistically somewhere in-between Italic, Celtic and Germanic. It is of course tempting to attribute that language to the invading Veneti (which might have been Homer's Enetoi from Crimea, and give us a wonderful link to Steppe / Kurgan cultures), and ascribe the Pre-IE Mediterranean level to the Euganei. Or, the Euganei already spoke that language (it should be rather old, as it has preserved the original IE Media aspirate). No idea..
In any case, we know from Roman authors that the Vindelici around today's Augsburg (Castra Vindelicorum) - a name that appears quite "Venetian" - spoke Celtic when they were conquered by the Romans, and their language was different from the East-Alpine IE spoken by the Breuni around the Brenner. It seems language shifts around the Alps may occur quite fast, but traces of the older languages will always remain. I guess you, as Alpinoid, were already aware of this.

the order would be , gallic, celtic, latin and lastly germanic
I would throw in illyrian first, but no one knows if this language even existed as there are zero finds
 
@Sile

Well East of Alps from Herodotus we know the Pannoni Basin Celts,
West of Alps we know the Belgae and the Gauloises,
But after the contact or raid of 'Dying Gauls' to Delphi we find Scordisci and Galates (the once who migrate to minor Asia)
the remarkable is that historians say that Galates spoke Gaulish as the ones in Belgium (Belgae?) but not Pannoni Basin Celts
so I wonder if replace B with a possible proto-form of W, maybe I have inner names, or connectivity-relativity
like Belgae = WeLgae <-> Walloons Wallachians Wales
and Wel- W->G Γ ->G Galates Gauls
but we know that Germanic tend to pronounce W as V like in wassa etc
but Southerns like Greek prefer to replace W with Γ (C?)
also original W in Greek Διγγαμα means double ΓΓ has the sound of G simmilar but different than the sound of ΓΚ - ΓΓ
so proto W might turn to V-B closer to Germanic, to G in Central zones and to Γ Southern zones closer Greek.

Besides Dorians as mentioned as ΤΡΙΧΑΚΕΣ means from Trikke central Thessaly center of Locri people, they are described by all as the non Pelasgians Greeks, they were the first who carry the name ΕΛΛΗΝ, and before all in these lands existed (oh just coinsidence) the Ellimeians ΕΛΛΗΜΙΟΙ,
 
@Sile

Well East of Alps from Herodotus we know the Pannoni Basin Celts,
West of Alps we know the Belgae and the Gauloises,
But after the contact or raid of 'Dying Gauls' to Delphi we find Scordisci and Galates (the once who migrate to minor Asia)
the remarkable is that historians say that Galates spoke Gaulish as the ones in Belgium (Belgae?) but not Pannoni Basin Celts
so I wonder if replace B with a possible proto-form of W, maybe I have inner names, or connectivity-relativity
like Belgae = WeLgae <-> Walloons Wallachians Wales
and Wel- W->G Γ ->G Galates Gauls
but we know that Germanic tend to pronounce W as V like in wassa etc
but Southerns like Greek prefer to replace W with Γ (C?)
also original W in Greek Διγγαμα means double ΓΓ has the sound of G simmilar but different than the sound of ΓΚ - ΓΓ
so proto W might turn to V-B closer to Germanic, to G in Central zones and to Γ Southern zones closer Greek.

Besides Dorians as mentioned as ΤΡΙΧΑΚΕΣ means from Trikke central Thessaly center of Locri people, they are described by all as the non Pelasgians Greeks, they were the first who carry the name ΕΛΛΗΝ, and before all in these lands existed (oh just coinsidence) the Ellimeians ΕΛΛΗΜΙΟΙ,

IMO, around the bronze-age, the Gallic of France where not merged with the Celtics of Central Germany, but I do believe the Gallic people pushed into the alps before the Celtics did ( they eventually merged) ............one should also state that P-celtic is in the western alps and Q-celtic is in the eastern alps. .............well, that what I have been reading
 
@Sile

Well East of Alps from Herodotus we know the Pannoni Basin Celts,
West of Alps we know the Belgae and the Gauloises,
But after the contact or raid of 'Dying Gauls' to Delphi we find Scordisci and Galates (the once who migrate to minor Asia)
the remarkable is that historians say that Galates spoke Gaulish as the ones in Belgium (Belgae?) but not Pannoni Basin Celts
so I wonder if replace B with a possible proto-form of W, maybe I have inner names, or connectivity-relativity
like Belgae = WeLgae <-> Walloons Wallachians Wales
and Wel- W->G Γ ->G Galates Gauls
but we know that Germanic tend to pronounce W as V like in wassa etc
but Southerns like Greek prefer to replace W with Γ (C?)
also original W in Greek Διγγαμα means double ΓΓ has the sound of G simmilar but different than the sound of ΓΚ - ΓΓ
so proto W might turn to V-B closer to Germanic, to G in Central zones and to Γ Southern zones closer Greek.

Besides Dorians as mentioned as ΤΡΙΧΑΚΕΣ means from Trikke central Thessaly center of Locri people, they are described by all as the non Pelasgians Greeks, they were the first who carry the name ΕΛΛΗΝ, and before all in these lands existed (oh just coinsidence) the Ellimeians ΕΛΛΗΜΙΟΙ,

could it be that Belgae and Galates were both La Tene Celts in origin , and Pannoni Basin Celts were not ?
 
IMO, around the bronze-age, the Gallic of France where not merged with the Celtics of Central Germany, but I do believe the Gallic people pushed into the alps before the Celtics did ( they eventually merged) ............one should also state that P-celtic is in the western alps and Q-celtic is in the eastern alps. .............well, that what I have been reading

the p-q exists also in Greek language, from Mycenean ικκος to archaic Greek ιππος, same is Latin equus to Gaulish (if remember correct, a celtic Dialect if not) hepheuw or generally heph*** to be more correct (bored to search),
I am not speaking of central Deutschland I spoke about Pannoni Basin area that is Austria Serbia Hungaria Slovakia and Romania, yet north of that Basin we find the Northern IE groups the ones we call Balto-Germano-Slavic
 
could it be that Belgae and Galates were both La Tene Celts in origin , and Pannoni Basin Celts were not ?

hm can't tell surely
it depends, or what you consider, Latin is relative to Celtic or oposite?
it is like say that Deutsch speak German and Dutch not, surely by time they create their own language but both are Germanic. Pannoni Basin Celts tend to Latin Italo-Celtic as we see from medieval Wallachians or affected by Romans to that.
can't tell right now, someone expert than me maybe can answer that.

yet I have a Feel (nothing scientific, just a vision) that these Celts did not sprung from La Tene but from Vucocar and then went to pass-habbit the Alps,
it seems like the 3 station of Arsenic bronze invaders on Istros-Donav create all 3 Cotofeni -> Thracians, Vatin->Greeks?Myceneans? Vucocar->Pannonia->Celts
while from Yamnaa to Pommerania the Balto-Germanic,
 
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the order would be , gallic, celtic, latin and lastly germanic
I would throw in illyrian first, but no one knows if this language even existed as there are zero finds
Again according to that German Wikipedia article, East-Alpine IE would over time have lost the proto-IE media aspirate, thereby splitting into two languages, namely Venetic and Illyrian.
  • Venetic would turn the mediae aspirate into fricatives: "bh"->f/v; "dh"->th/z, "gh"->x/h
  • Illyrian would turn the mediae aspirate into plosives instead: "bh"->b/p, "dh"->d/t, "gh"->g/k
The Tyrolean location names in the article indicate that the border between the two was anything but clear cut. Especially the Val Venosta (Vinschgau) is full of examples for both shifts next to each other. The same applies to the Bozen / Bolzano area, and the Inn valley (e.g. Illyrian "Brenner", Venetic "Zillertal"). Some Austrian linguists have taken that diversity, and additional variation in specific vowel shifts, to postulate up to six East Alpine IE languages (essentially one for each major valley), but that goes a bit too far for my taste.

In any case, to get a feel for the complexity, let's take a look at a few places in the area and their names in several languages:
  • Italian: Verona (Venetic), German: Bern (Illyrian)
  • German: Villach (Venetic), Slovenian: Beljak (Illyrian), Italian: Villaco (Venetic)
  • Italian: Gemona di Friuli (Illyrian), German: Klemaun (Illyrian), Slovenian: Humin (Venetic)
  • Italian: Veneto (Venetic "v", Illyrian "t"), Slovenian: Benecji (Illyrian "b", Venetic "cj"), German: Venezien (Venetic)
A wonderful example is also Pozza di Fassa.

While Continental Celts undoubtedly crossed the Alps and settled in the Po Valley, their contribution to location names in the Eastern Alps is more and more questioned. I doubt that Gallic, anyway part of Continental Celtic, is of relevance in the Eastern Alps. The Celts made their entrance either through the Inn valley, or from the Slovenian coast, and the tribes in question should have been speaking Noric or related dialects. Essentially, we are talking here about the Volcae and the Boii (which might carry the same root in their name).

The Volcae must originally have lived close to Germanics, who took their name as "Walhaz", which later morphed into "Welsh" as a generic term for Celt-Italics, and variants such as, "Walloons" and "Vlach". Ceaser placed their origin into the Hercynian Forest, i.e. the German low mountain ranges north of the Danube. The upper Weser catchment area, i.e SE Westphalia, Northern Hesse and Southern Lower Saxony, fits the criteria well. That area includes the Siegerland and the Western Harz, both attested bronze-age copper mining and processing areas. Blomberg near Detmold, on the Roman military road and medieval Hellweg (="salt road") from Cologne to Dortmund, Paderborn, the northern Harz and Magdeburg on the Elbe, might have been their original capital. The Dünsberg near Giessen, or the Glauberg north of Frankfurt, are other possible capitals. The map below shows celtic oppida (later often taken over by Germanics) in green, and Roman castles / cities in red; Blomberg is the northernmost green dot a bit west of the map centre.
hoehensiedlungen_4-5_jh.jpg


Belgae and Volcae is obviously the same root - that should also include the Belgae in Southern England. However, Ceasar described the Continental Belgae as a mix of Celts and Germanics. The Volcae were also otherwise quite mobile. South-eastwards, they made it into Greece and Galatia during the 3rd century BC. Ceasar also reports them in Moravia. Towards the south-west, the Volcae Aeromici settled west of the lower Rhone (capital: Nimes), and the Volcae Tectosages in Aquitaine (capital: Tolouse). These migrations probably relate to the breakdown of the Central European Bronze Age trade network due to the progress of iron; Germanics started to process own iron resources and didn't need to import metals from Central and Southern Europe. In addition, Greek establishment of Massilia shifted trans-European traffic (including trade of tin from Cornwall and Brittany to the Eastern Mediterranean) towards the Rhone-Seine axis, and Baltic amber replaced North-Sea amber. The Volcae appear to have to moved closer to the newly emerging trade routes in order to regain a role in transit trade. Germanic southward expansion, especially into the Harz and the Middle Elbe region, during the 6/5th century BC may have increased migration pressure.

640px-Staffelberg_Franken.jpg

Memory of their brethren and allies, the Boii, is still kept alive in the names "Bohemia" (home of the Boii) and "Bavaria" (where the "Boii were"). They are believed to have originally settled south of the Volcae, between Rhine, Main, and Danube. Boidorum (Passau) may have been their capital; in that case they would have controlled the lower Inn river and access to the North Tirol copper mines, the economic base of the Urnfield culture. Alternatively, their original capital could have been the Staffelberg on the upper Main(see photo above), Ptolemy's Menosgada. In the map above, it is located within the green cluster towards the east of the map center, and controlled the north-south amber route from the Elbe near Magdeburg along the Saale valley to the Danube at Regensburg (Catra Regina), and east-west trade between Bohemia and the Rhine-Main area. The Urnfield culture itself is believed to have emerged from the South-central Alps, i.e. speakers of South-Alpine IE, they would most likely also have controlled the Tirolean mines. The salt mines in the Hallstatt and Salzburg area were probably controlled by the Norici, who lived in today's Austria along the Danube and in the SE Alps.
In the early 4th century BC, the Boii left their homeland towards several directions: One part migrated into Bohemia, and subsequently into Western Silesia (Erzgebirge tin & Baltic amber trade), another one joined the Volcae in their expansion down the Danube. The third group settled in the Po valley, where they established their new capital, Bononia (Bologna). By the first century BC, they had also formed a kingdom around Bratislava, though it is unclear whether that kingdom already originated from the 3rd century expansion down the Danube, or later retreat of Cisalpine Gauls (Boiii) from the Roman advance. The map below shows the distribution of Bohemian heat-resistant black pottery (blue) and standardised Celtic painted pottery that was produced in several locations (red) during the 3rd to 1st century BC. it gives and idea on the area under the economic influence of the Boii, Volcae, Norici and other tribes. The red star marks Manching north of Ingolstadt, which had close to 10,000 inhabitants at that time, and might have been the capital of the Vindelic. Note that there may have been other pottery manufacturers, so the map is probably not displaying all Continental Celtic lands. Note also that economic influence is not necessarily meaning political control.
karte_l.gif


The Boii, Norici and Vindelici south of the Danube, as the Belgae and the Volcae in Southern France, were gradually conquered by the Romans. Ceasar's conquest of Gallia destroyed the economic base of Manching as the centre of north-alpine east-west trade; north-south trade had probably already decreased after Roman conquest of Cisalpine Gallia. The oppidum was already given up a few decades before the Romans arrived at the upper Danube. Boii and Volcae in Bohemia, Moravia and Western Slovakia got under pressure from the Dacians, but it was the Germanic Markomanni that had escaped up the Elbe from Roman advance across the Rhine, who ultimately took over their last fiefdoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppidum_of_Manching
 
Again according to that German Wikipedia article, East-Alpine IE would over time have lost the proto-IE media aspirate, thereby splitting into two languages, namely Venetic and Illyrian.
  • Venetic would turn the mediae aspirate into fricatives: "bh"->f/v; "dh"->th/z, "gh"->x/h
  • Illyrian would turn the mediae aspirate into plosives instead: "bh"->b/p, "dh"->d/t, "gh"->g/k
The Tyrolean location names in the article indicate that the border between the two was anything but clear cut. Especially the Val Venosta (Vinschgau) is full of examples for both shifts next to each other. The same applies to the Bozen / Bolzano area, and the Inn valley (e.g. Illyrian "Brenner", Venetic "Zillertal"). Some Austrian linguists have taken that diversity, and additional variation in specific vowel shifts, to postulate up to six East Alpine IE languages (essentially one for each major valley), but that goes a bit too far for my taste.

In any case, to get a feel for the complexity, let's take a look at a few places in the area and their names in several languages:
  • Italian: Verona (Venetic), German: Bern (Illyrian)
  • German: Villach (Venetic), Slovenian: Beljak (Illyrian), Italian: Villaco (Venetic)
  • Italian: Gemona di Friuli (Illyrian), German: Klemaun (Illyrian), Slovenian: Humin (Venetic)
  • Italian: Veneto (Venetic "v", Illyrian "t"), Slovenian: Benecji (Illyrian "b", Venetic "cj"), German: Venezien (Venetic)
A wonderful example is also Pozza di Fassa.

thank you for article

Please explain these languages from Italian Verona...down

In reagrds to Pozza di Fassa, ......you mean Val di Fassa......a place I have ancestral links to....Priermo and Siror

While Continental Celts undoubtedly crossed the Alps and settled in the Po Valley, their contribution to location names in the Eastern Alps is more and more questioned. I doubt that Gallic, anyway part of Continental Celtic, is of relevance in the Eastern Alps. The Celts made their entrance either through the Inn valley, or from the Slovenian coast, and the tribes in question should have been speaking Noric or related dialects. Essentially, we are talking here about the Volcae and the Boii (which might carry the same root in their name).

The Volcae must originally have lived close to Germanics, who took their name as "Walhaz", which later morphed into "Welsh" as a generic term for Celt-Italics, and variants such as, "Walloons" and "Vlach". Ceaser placed their origin into the Hercynian Forest, i.e. the German low mountain ranges north of the Danube. The upper Weser catchment area, i.e SE Westphalia, Northern Hesse and Southern Lower Saxony, fits the criteria well. That area includes the Siegerland and the Western Harz, both attested bronze-age copper mining and processing areas. Blomberg near Detmold, on the Roman military road and medieval Hellweg (="salt road") from Cologne to Dortmund, Paderborn, the northern Harz and Magdeburg on the Elbe, might have been their original capital. The Dünsberg near Giessen, or the Glauberg north of Frankfurt, are other possible capitals. The map below shows celtic oppida (later often taken over by Germanics) in green, and Roman castles / cities in red; Blomberg is the northernmost green dot a bit west of the map centre.
hoehensiedlungen_4-5_jh.jpg


Belgae and Volcae is obviously the same root - that should also include the Belgae in Southern England. However, Ceasar described the Continental Belgae as a mix of Celts and Germanics. The Volcae were also otherwise quite mobile. South-eastwards, they made it into Greece and Galatia during the 3rd century BC. Ceasar also reports them in Moravia. Towards the south-west, the Volcae Aeromici settled west of the lower Rhone (capital: Nimes), and the Volcae Tectosages in Aquitaine (capital: Tolouse). These migrations probably relate to the breakdown of the Central European Bronze Age trade network due to the progress of iron; Germanics started to process own iron resources and didn't need to import metals from Central and Southern Europe. In addition, Greek establishment of Massilia shifted trans-European traffic (including trade of tin from Cornwall and Brittany to the Eastern Mediterranean) towards the Rhone-Seine axis, and Baltic amber replaced North-Sea amber. The Volcae appear to have to moved closer to the newly emerging trade routes in order to regain a role in transit trade. Germanic southward expansion, especially into the Harz and the Middle Elbe region, during the 6/5th century BC may have increased migration pressure.

I think you need to understand the Greek and Latin endings of "ae" for the tribes.........Volcae means the Volci tribe and all other minor tribes in its confederation or tribes that where similar to ,
So, you have Bastanae ( bastani, peucini ), Sarmatae ( samatians, Alani ), etc etc


The Volcae as far as I understood Began in modern Marseilles are next to the cenomani who arrived from Brittany...........the volcae travel to Augsburg area and the cenomani went to verona area..........this is the Roman version..............other version states the volcae began in augsburg area and went to Marseilles

Memory of their brethren and allies, the Boii, is still kept alive in the names "Bohemia" (home of the Boii) and "Bavaria" (where the "Boii were"). They are believed to have originally settled south of the Volcae, between Rhine, Main, and Danube. Boidorum (Passau) may have been their capital; in that case they would have controlled the lower Inn river and access to the North Tirol copper mines, the economic base of the Urnfield culture. Alternatively, their original capital could have been the Staffelberg on the upper Main(see photo above), Ptolemy's Menosgada. In the map above, it is located within the green cluster towards the east of the map center, and controlled the north-south amber route from the Elbe near Magdeburg along the Saale valley to the Danube at Regensburg (Catra Regina), and east-west trade between Bohemia and the Rhine-Main area. The Urnfield culture itself is believed to have emerged from the South-central Alps, i.e. speakers of South-Alpine IE, they would most likely also have controlled the Tirolean mines. The salt mines in the Hallstatt and Salzburg area were probably controlled by the Norici, who lived in today's Austria along the Danube and in the SE Alps.

Boii where gallic Tribe from Alsace, went to romagna in Italy and then to Bohemia

Nori where illyrian tribe and became Norici once they became celtinized. They developed Noric steel ~800BC , pre celtic times .



In the early 4th century BC, the Boii left their homeland towards several directions: One part migrated into Bohemia, and subsequently into Western Silesia (Erzgebirge tin & Baltic amber trade), another one joined the Volcae in their expansion down the Danube. The third group settled in the Po valley, where they established their new capital, Bononia (Bologna). By the first century BC, they had also formed a kingdom around Bratislava, though it is unclear whether that kingdom already originated from the 3rd century expansion down the Danube, or later retreat of Cisalpine Gauls (Boiii) from the Roman advance. The map below shows the distribution of Bohemian heat-resistant black pottery (blue) and standardised Celtic painted pottery that was produced in several locations (red) during the 3rd to 1st century BC. it gives and idea on the area under the economic influence of the Boii, Volcae, Norici and other tribes. The red star marks Manching north of Ingolstadt, which had close to 10,000 inhabitants at that time, and might have been the capital of the Vindelic. Note that there may have been other pottery manufacturers, so the map is probably not displaying all Continental Celtic lands. Note also that economic influence is not necessarily meaning political control.

I agree the Vindelic lived in south Germany prior to the alpine area
karte_l.gif


The Boii, Norici and Vindelici south of the Danube, as the Belgae and the Volcae in Southern France, were gradually conquered by the Romans. Ceasar's conquest of Gallia destroyed the economic base of Manching as the centre of north-alpine east-west trade; north-south trade had probably already decreased after Roman conquest of Cisalpine Gallia. The oppidum was already given up a few decades before the Romans arrived at the upper Danube. Boii and Volcae in Bohemia, Moravia and Western Slovakia got under pressure from the Dacians, but it was the Germanic Markomanni that had escaped up the Elbe from Roman advance across the Rhine, who ultimately took over their last fiefdoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppidum_of_Manching

You forget venetic archeology has been found in innsbruck and the road leading to Italy, the naming of the river of innsbruck , the Sill and its corresponding river in the Veneto which flows to the Venetian lagoon is Sil ( in venetian ), named by the same people.

anyway............good article.........I just need to absorb it more , before I can truly make my view on it.
 
Are you sure words don't have more meanings than one?
How do you explain that in polish and russian "brzeg and берег" mean shore or edge? They both come from old slavic "брѣгъ".

It could be that shore is edge of the sea, or edge of the land, but Croatian is only second to Japanese concerning quantity of marine time terms, so probably only we use 'obala'
 
. Anyway, crossing the Greater Caucasus, we get to Georgian kanva (Latin transcription). I am not at all acquainted with the rules that have affected Georgian sound changes, but a relation to jantar seems in principle possible. Armenian sat looks already quite distant, and from there on, I couldn't find any further traces of the root. In any case, if the word is really Phoenician in origin, it has made its way from the Levante via the Caucasus to the Baltic Sea, which brings up a number of interesting questions.
Amber in Georgian is Qarva ქარვა
 
@Sile

Well East of Alps from Herodotus we know the Pannoni Basin Celts,
West of Alps we know the Belgae and the Gauloises,
But after the contact or raid of 'Dying Gauls' to Delphi we find Scordisci and Galates (the once who migrate to minor Asia)
the remarkable is that historians say that Galates spoke Gaulish as the ones in Belgium (Belgae?) but not Pannoni Basin Celts
so I wonder if replace B with a possible proto-form of W, maybe I have inner names, or connectivity-relativity
like Belgae = WeLgae <-> Walloons Wallachians Wales
and Wel- W->G Γ ->G Galates Gauls
but we know that Germanic tend to pronounce W as V like in wassa etc
but Southerns like Greek prefer to replace W with Γ (C?)
also original W in Greek Διγγαμα means double ΓΓ has the sound of G simmilar but different than the sound of ΓΚ - ΓΓ
so proto W might turn to V-B closer to Germanic, to G in Central zones and to Γ Southern zones closer Greek.

Besides Dorians as mentioned as ΤΡΙΧΑΚΕΣ means from Trikke central Thessaly center of Locri people, they are described by all as the non Pelasgians Greeks, they were the first who carry the name ΕΛΛΗΝ, and before all in these lands existed (oh just coinsidence) the Ellimeians ΕΛΛΗΜΙΟΙ,


Some thoughts :

even if more stable than vowels, consonnants are submitted to drift too in languages ; that said, the mutations which occur when they occur don't have the same results, according to time and language (or dialect) – so, it is not always the same mutation which occurs on the same primary consonnant in two languages ; even if a general tendancy to less articulary effort exists, the laws which prevail in a language or a family of languages don't prevail in others... + as a genreral rule, the back mutations are very seldom...

Everyone of the different results constated in different languages is limited to its own language :
let's take the first written I-E *W whatever its genuine pronounciation in PIE :
initial :
in gaelic celtic languages it turned into 'f' /f/
in brittonic celtic languages it turned into 'gw' at >> /gw//g'H/
in anglo-saxon and flemish it turned into 'w' /w/
in hollandish (and maybe frisian) it turned into 'w' bilabial /v/
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]in german and scandinavian it turned into 'w' or 'v' labiodental[/FONT] /v/
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the same as in german occurred in all the other I-E languages : indo-iranian, balto-slavic, greek, romance, as a rule ; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]&: exception : northern castillan of Spain, catalan, western occitan of France, north corsican where it turned into 'b' [/FONT]/B/ [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]or [/FONT]/b/ - [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]in germany, a few dialects (close to the north-central north franconian Rhine region) have 'b' [/FONT]/b/ [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]for 'w' [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]in some words[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](mayby through the hollandish bilabial pronounciation) but it's surely a recent enough evolution - [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]BUT at the same time in the same region I have some hard work to accept a V-k transformation to B-g as in Volques/Volcae (?) and Belgae/Belgii(?) concerning the same name of folk ; I don't exclude it but [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]it is not my first choice at all...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the same concerning the very hypothetical passage from V- to G- without an intermediary stage in GW- at same period - (Volcae to Galati, and what about the -k- into -t-) - I wait proofs - [/FONT]
 

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