Iranic words in European languages.

[Zemra]

I know Albanian is most closed,with most cognates,but I do not speak Albanian.
Anyway,Romanian got cognates from Iranian also.
There is a famous book in Romania,written by greatest Romanian linguist ,name Bogdan Petriceicu Hasdeu called "Pierit-au dacii?" ("Did the Dacians perished?").
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdan_Petriceicu_Hasdeu)
He gives clear examples of words from Romanian cognates with Indo-Iranic languages.

Albanian is not the closest to Indo-Iranian, at least not more than Balto-Slavic is, in the sense they're all Satem languages. Albanian, or rather Proto-Albanian as what led to modern Albanian included about a millennium of Romance influence, is closest to Baltic (Orel). Baltic languages have most cognates with Albanian, and second would be Greek. Then Germanic cognates are the third biggest. Celtic not so much, pretty insignificant, and the number of cognates with Armenian can be counted in one hand.(A Coincise Historical Grammar of the Albanian language)

buza though, it's an Albanian wanderwort, not Indo-Iranian, although I think it means face in Polish. It's related to Latin basium 'kiss'.

Romanian has a significant number of loanwords from Albanian (from there some have passed into Polish and Ukrainian). For example Albanian sorra with Romanian cioara, 'crow'. We know it's a loanword not substratum because the Proto-Albanian form was *shtsharna (transliterated, I can't copy paste special characters for some reason). On the other hand Romanian does have some cognates with Albanian like modhulla, mazura 'pea', which can't be explained as a loanword. That's the Paleo-Balkanic substratum. But these are not Indo-Iranian. Albanian is not Indo-Iranian, it's its own family. But they are Satem languages, so of course they have similarities.

Really though, where does hudhra 'garlic' (cognate with Greek σκόρδο) comes from?

 

[mihaitzateo]

Albanian is not the closest to Indo-Iranian, at least not more than Balto-Slavic is, in the sense they're all Satem languages. Albanian, or rather Proto-Albanian as what led to modern Albanian included about a millennium of Romance influence, is closest to Baltic (Orel). Baltic languages have most cognates with Albanian, and second would be Greek. Then Germanic cognates are the third biggest. Celtic not so much, pretty insignificant, and the number of cognates with Armenian can be counted in one hand.(A Coincise Historical Grammar of the Albanian language)

buza though, it's an Albanian wanderwort, not Indo-Iranian, although I think it means face in Polish. It's related to Latin basium 'kiss'.

Romanian has a significant number of loanwords from Albanian (from there some have passed into Polish and Ukrainian). For example Albanian sorra with Romanian cioara, 'crow'. We know it's a loanword not substratum because the Proto-Albanian form was *shtsharna (transliterated, I can't copy paste special characters for some reason). On the other hand Romanian does have some cognates with Albanian like modhulla, mazura 'pea', which can't be explained as a loanword. That's the Paleo-Balkanic substratum. But these are not Indo-Iranian. Albanian is not Indo-Iranian, it's its own family. But they are Satem languages, so of course they have similarities.

Really though, where does hudhra 'garlic' (cognate with Greek σκόρδο) comes from?

I can hear very clear how the R pronounced in Albanian is very closed if not identical to how R is pronounced in Iranian.
For Slavic I also heard clear resemblances of the sounds to Iranian.
But what clearly shows the common origin is the very closed folklore from Serbia,Montenegro,Albania with the folklore from North Iran.
Besides,on some more detailed autosomal tests there is no Baltic admixture in Albanians (neither in South Slavs) but there is some Eastern Balkanic admixture in Baltic people.
There is Eastern Balkanic in Ukraine,in Russia (I guess in Poland and West Slavs also).
Which I think shows that Satem IE languages spread from SE Europe towards NE Europe and North Europe.

 

[Zemra]

I can hear very clear how the R pronounced in Albanian is very closed if not identical to how R is pronounced in Iranian.
For Slavic I also heard clear resemblances of the sounds to Iranian.
But what clearly shows the common origin is the very closed folklore from Serbia,Montenegro,Albania with the folklore from North Iran.
Besides,on some more detailed autosomal tests there is no Baltic admixture in Albanians (neither in South Slavs) but there is some Eastern Balkanic admixture in Baltic people.
There is Eastern Balkanic in Ukraine,in Russia (I guess in Poland and West Slavs also).
Which I think shows that Satem IE languages spread from SE Europe towards NE Europe and North Europe.

I can hear very clear how the R pronounced in Albanian is very closed if not identical to how R is pronounced in Iranian.
For Slavic I also heard clear resemblances of the sounds to Iranian.
But what clearly shows the common origin is the very closed folklore from Serbia,Montenegro,Albania with the folklore from North Iran.
Besides,on some more detailed autosomal tests there is no Baltic admixture in Albanians (neither in South Slavs) but there is some Eastern Balkanic admixture in Baltic people.
There is Eastern Balkanic in Ukraine,in Russia (I guess in Poland and West Slavs also).
Which I think shows that Satem IE languages spread from SE Europe towards NE Europe and North Europe.

First point means absolutely nothing. How do you think -t- or -d-in the middle of the words is pronounced in English? Exactly like that Iranian r you describe. But that's not the Albanian r though, it's soft too, but no. Besides, Albanian does not have one r pronounciation, it also has the Spanish rr, and the distinction between the two is important as it changes the meaning of the words.

Second point, languages spoken next to each other tend to resemble each other in phonetics. You can make a case on Basque as well, to someone who simply hears it and has no idea what that is will say sounds Spanish, but doesn't use Spanish words.

Third point, are you aware of Proto-Indo-European religion? Are you aware of cultural exchanges through trade routes?

Fourth, languages spread faster than people.

Lastly, Satem/Kentum do not make a subfamily of Indo-European. It's a way of describing languages. This ties in with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th points.

 

[Yetos]

there are 4 Hypothesis about IE, outside the steppe people which I do not share, at least as expressed by Kurgans or chariots, although I find Arsenic bronze dates route etc a correct one, especially for North IE languages

1, Indo-Hettit
2 Indo-Iranian
3 Armenian (Armenian=Thracian)
4 Greco-Aryan

from all 4 the last seems the most correct in all Linguists, with its own problems ofcourse

Indeed the closest European known Language to Aryan-Iranian is Homeric Greek (Aeolian dialect)

on controversary ancient Greeks describe Scythians as Iranian speakers or close to Iranian
we know Scythians in Europe as Scythia major minor etc, even that they enter pannoni Basin at last,
how much linguistic influence could the Scythian bring to Europe,

for example greek goat αιγα sanshqrit goat aiwa is the same, but this does not mean sanshqrit=greek
BUT SANSHQRIT<IE>Greek
they both sprung from the IE,

a good example is the bird you describe,

Polish Phasan Romanian B.... Iranian B.... Greek Φασιανος
wow what I see? that all the world speak Greek (since I am Hellenas) or Polish or Persian etc.
NO simply again I discover IE.
could it be a loan word?
Yes i must search many, like
1) the homeland of the Bird, for example the word crocodile is not a IE word, Pommeranian language could not have crocodile in their vocabulary, so the word is imported to them
or the word pottato, or better bananna these are not IE words.

2) aspirations for example celtic horse hephew and Greek ιππος ippos, we see the difference in h while miss in Greek and ph turns to pp
that means the word Hippopotamus is a loan word from Greek to celtic languages

3)meaning of the word, like athletics for example in English, it can describe sport fitness competition etc, but its true meaning is Greek, so it is a loan,
as the word computer to most of modern languages or pharmacie, or status-qvo, or many many other

 

[Yetos]

Fourth, languages spread faster than people.

Lastly, Satem/Kentum do not make a subfamily of Indo-European. It's a way of describing languages. This ties in with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th points.

E? (means what?)

1) How a language is spread faster than people?
can I speak chinese before i hear or someone teach me? :useless:

maybe the wind carry and spread chinese, before a china man come and speak to me, :cool-v:

2) do yoy Believe that from a satem language can sprung a centum one? or oposite?

 

[Vinnie]

Seems like Sanskrit shares more similarities with certain Old European religions such as Old Greek.

 

[Yetos]

Seems like Sanskrit shares more similarities with certain Old European religions such as Old Greek.

I have seen your post about the bear and god volos etc, do you know that almost simmilar but with different meaning exist in Greek also?

in fact although the genetical connectivity of Makedonians with Kallsha people seems to be pure, the cultural seems to be enough,
the 'goblin-*****-goat', the marriage of an ungly, the dancing bear and the priest, exist almost simmilar in both, while I do not know in Russian,
same customs but little bit different dates we find in Pontic Greeks (Trapezous) call as momogeroi and in Thessaly.

By what I search similar but not same can found in Slovenia Austria even Swiss

But in which parts of Russia we find such as the one you describe in the other thread?

 

[LeBrok]

Goran in Kurdish language means shepherd from mountains. There is similar word in Slavic (at least West and East Slavs, not sure about South ones) Goral meaning inhabitant of the mountains, the highlander. Gora means hill/mountain.

The Kurds themselves just recently started to call themselves Kurd, instead when you asked a Kurd in his language what ethnicity he is, he usually asnwered as Kurmanj/Kirmanj (Kur= again association with mountains ?) or Goran, which means herder of the mountains (again association with mountains Gor = Kur? since an is addition to names and tribes in Iranic) or Zoran.

I wonder if word Kurgan has Scythian origin, meaning hill, mound? Wikipedia says it is Turkic and Mongolian, but we know that their cultures were heavily influenced by nomadic Scythians.

 

[Alan]

Goran in Kurdish language means shepherd from mountains. There is similar word in Slavic (at least West and East Slavs, not sure about South ones) Goral meaning inhabitant of the mountains, the highlander. Gora means hill/mountain.



I wonder if word Kurgan has Scythian origin, meaning hill, mound? Wikipedia says it is Turkic and Mongolian, but we know that their cultures were heavily influenced by nomadic Scythians.

It might be a hybridization of Iranic and Turkic ( as we know many Words in Turkic are hybridizations of Iranic and Altaic words). Maybe Kur is Iranic for hil/mountain while Gan Altaic for Grave?

Or gan/an might come from typical ending for Iranic terms.

 

[Alan]

Goran in Kurdish language means shepherd from mountains. There is similar word in Slavic (at least West and East Slavs, not sure about South ones)

The Gorani or Goranci (Cyrillic: Горани or Горанци, meaning Highlanders, pronounced [ɡɔ̌rani] or [ɡɔrǎːntsi]) is a Slavic Muslim ethnic group inhabiting the Gora region - the triangle between Kosovo^[a], Albania, and the Republic of Macedonia. They number an estimated 60,000 people, and speak a transitional South Slavic dialect, called Našinski.

The ethnonym Gorani, meaning "highlanders", is derived from the Slavic toponym gora, which means "hill, mountain".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani_people

 

[MOESAN]

Kurgan ?
Verygood question !
Someonessay there is a pre-I-E european root *kar- for « stone », « rock »
I-Eantoday languages present a lot of words based (seemingly) upon twopossible roots :
*k-r-« to curve » or*k-r « stone »maybe plus a *L evolution of *R
Iposted on the matter in an other thread : what is sureis that sometimes things are unsure !When you find the seemingly same root in words meaning « circle »,« round » or « stone » (construction or not)AND TOO words meaning a « circular building of stones »you can have some sweating attack ! -


a)indo-european of Europe: *k-r <> *ker- = «tocurve, to bend»
Greek= Hell- kurtos: «bent», korônos: «hooked»- Lat- + corona – corolla >> A-Fr- corb- >>courbe – incurver – couronne – couronner – corolle –corollaire - Esp- corvo – encorvar – corona – coronar- It- curvo – incurvare – coronare - >>Slav- Srb-Cro kruna = « crown » -
>>enlarged form (sic) *kerk- = same basic meaning
Hell-kirkos / krikos =«ring»- kerkos =«animal tail» -Lat- circus =«circle», «creek»- circa =«around» (loand in a lot oflanguages) – circuire– circulus - circellus – circare – circulare – circinus =«compass»- A-Fr- cerche =«round»- cerchier =«to go in a circle»- cernel =«small hole»- Fr- cirque – cercle –circonférence – circuit – circuler –circonspect– cerceau – chercher – recherche – cerne – cerner - >>Ang- search– All- zirkel– bezirk = «district»- Esp- circo– cerco – cerca – circuir – circulo – cercillo, zarcillo =«earring»- cercar = «to belt»- cercenar =«to clip»- It- circa– cerchia =«enclosure–cerchio – circuire - circolo – cerchiello – cercare –cercine =«rolledfold»- >> Br-kelc'h– kerc'hlenn >> kerlenn – Gall-cylch– the celtic words in*k-l-k would perhaps be avariant ?
b)my other words : celtic in*kr- andgermanic in *hr-
Br-krenn (+ <<kronn), = «average »,« circular », « clipped*- gronnañ <<°kronnañ = «tosurround» (Welsh- cronhoi),welsg crwn, cron«circular» –gael - cruinnim/cruinnich = «to aggregate», «to gather»–Br kromm =«curved», «convex»- Welsh- crwm/crom –Gael- cruim – cruimim -cruinn = «exact»- - + Br-krek = «stalk»-
Br-krugell =«tumulus», « barrow » -
Germ-hring =- Eng- ring – Dutch-ring –All- ring –Isl- hringur >>Fr- rang – rangée –ranger (existance of possible 'infixe N'!– Isl-hrokk-inn =«curled (hair)»
Slav-*k-r– SrbCro- kriv =«curved» >>«wrong», «coupable» - krivina= «curve»- krug =«circle» -kružiti= «to go,ina curve»- Rus- krug= «circle»- krivoj =«curve» - Czeh- kruh/ kružnice=«circle»- kružitko= «compas»–Bulg-krägov= «circular»- okräžnost= «circle»- kriv= «curve»- Pol- krąg=«circle»(n.), okrąźyć=«to surround »do notice thelittle sign under the 'a'of the 'infixe N'!!! «hring»!)- okrągły=«rounded »
&:the slavic word kolo= «wheel» and the germ- hwîl(wheel; wiel) could have a remote common origin with celtic *k-l =*k-r ??? = «tocurve », to «make round »

 

[Alan]

Kurgan ?
Verygood question !
Someonessay there is a pre-I-E european root *kar- for « stone », « rock »
I-Eantoday languages present a lot of words based (seemingly) upon twopossible roots :
*k-r-« to curve » or*k-r « stone »maybe plus a *L evolution of *R
Iposted on the matter in an other thread : what is sureis that sometimes things are unsure !When you find the seemingly same root in words meaning « circle »,« round » or « stone » (construction or not)AND TOO words meaning a « circular building of stones »you can have some sweating attack ! -


a)indo-european of Europe: *k-r <> *ker- = «tocurve, to bend»
Greek= Hell- kurtos: «bent», korônos: «hooked»- Lat- + corona – corolla >> A-Fr- corb- >>courbe – incurver – couronne – couronner – corolle –corollaire - Esp- corvo – encorvar – corona – coronar- It- curvo – incurvare – coronare - >>Slav- Srb-Cro kruna = « crown » -
>>enlarged form (sic) *kerk- = same basic meaning
Hell-kirkos / krikos =«ring»- kerkos =«animal tail» -Lat- circus =«circle», «creek»- circa =«around» (loand in a lot oflanguages) – circuire– circulus - circellus – circare – circulare – circinus =«compass»- A-Fr- cerche =«round»- cerchier =«to go in a circle»- cernel =«small hole»- Fr- cirque – cercle –circonférence – circuit – circuler –circonspect– cerceau – chercher – recherche – cerne – cerner - >>Ang- search– All- zirkel– bezirk = «district»- Esp- circo– cerco – cerca – circuir – circulo – cercillo, zarcillo =«earring»- cercar = «to belt»- cercenar =«to clip»- It- circa– cerchia =«enclosure–cerchio – circuire - circolo – cerchiello – cercare –cercine =«rolledfold»- >> Br-kelc'h– kerc'hlenn >> kerlenn – Gall-cylch– the celtic words in*k-l-k would perhaps be avariant ?
b)my other words : celtic in*kr- andgermanic in *hr-
Br-krenn (+ <<kronn), = «average »,« circular », « clipped*- gronnañ <<°kronnañ = «tosurround» (Welsh- cronhoi),welsg crwn, cron«circular» –gael - cruinnim/cruinnich = «to aggregate», «to gather»–Br kromm =«curved», «convex»- Welsh- crwm/crom –Gael- cruim – cruimim -cruinn = «exact»- - + Br-krek = «stalk»-
Br-krugell =«tumulus», « barrow » -
Germ-hring =- Eng- ring – Dutch-ring –All- ring –Isl- hringur >>Fr- rang – rangée –ranger (existance of possible 'infixe N'!– Isl-hrokk-inn =«curled (hair)»
Slav-*k-r– SrbCro- kriv =«curved» >>«wrong», «coupable» - krivina= «curve»- krug =«circle» -kružiti= «to go,ina curve»- Rus- krug= «circle»- krivoj =«curve» - Czeh- kruh/ kružnice=«circle»- kružitko= «compas»–Bulg-krägov= «circular»- okräžnost= «circle»- kriv= «curve»- Pol- krąg=«circle»(n.), okrąźyć=«to surround »do notice thelittle sign under the 'a'of the 'infixe N'!!! «hring»!)- okrągły=«rounded »
&:the slavic word kolo= «wheel» and the germ- hwîl(wheel; wiel) could have a remote common origin with celtic *k-l =*k-r ??? = «tocurve », to «make round »

Technicaly speaking a hill or mountain is a curve out of stone./B] So "Curve" might have got the meaning of mountains/hill in Satem Indo European.

There is a similar case. For example the original Indo European word for mountain which is Berez in Iranic has adopted the meaning of big/huge.

It is more likely that KUR IN Indo iranian has meaning of mountain. In persian for example Kuh means also mountain.

 

[Zemra]

E? (means what?)

1) How a language is spread faster than people?
can I speak chinese before i hear or someone teach me? :useless:

maybe the wind carry and spread chinese, before a china man come and speak to me, :cool-v:

I was talking about influence. Of course we need people to carry the langauge, but not neccessarly a whole lot, just a very influental group. Latin speakers today derive from Romans and different groups of people found where the Latin spread (also migrators later, but you get the point). They did not neccessarly wiped out small groups of and move their entire population, just a group of them which subjugated the rest. Thus those people got latinized over time.

2) do yoy Believe that from a satem language can sprung a centum one? or oposite?

IE had already split in daughter langauges before the Centum-Satem, that was not the first branching. Let's take the example you put :Graeco-Aryan, Greek is Centum the others (Indo-Iranian/Armenian) are Satem, yet you put them in one family.

 

[Yetos]

I was talking about influence. Of course we need people to carry the langauge, but not neccessarly a whole lot, just a very influental group. Latin speakers today derive from Romans and different groups of people found where the Latin spread (also migrators later, but you get the point). They did not neccessarly wiped out small groups of and move their entire population, just a group of them which subjugated the rest. Thus those people got latinized over time.


IE had already split in daughter langauges before the Centum-Satem, that was not the first branching. Let's take the example you put :Graeco-Aryan, Greek is Centum the others (Indo-Iranian/Armenian) are Satem, yet you put them in one family.

Latin is spread among Celtic languages, we speak about languages of same families, except Romania,
but Romania had a big substractum from Pannoni Celts, and huge quantities of Roman army (including Byzantine era)
the good example is England, Celts Saxon Normands, and yet we have a language that we consider Germanic, but could be more Celtic.
How much Germanic people needed just to create English language from older Celto - Britonic 2 invsions and ruler class for centuries,

Greco-aryan is a split from a LPIE, from a non centum/satem, like Hettit, sprung 1 satem 1 centum, but according so many centuries of colonies, we haven't seen a sprung different than mother language,
Even in English/Indian (Indians who learn and speak English the times of colonisation)

how many centuries of Latin and Greek last Roman and East Roman empire, yet we see only the small % of Aromani in Balkans speaking Latin, and this mostly where Legions settle, and few Hellenized Galates in Kappadokia,
do you see any Greek speaking outside the areas that we know they were colonised?

 

[Diurpaneus]

Latin is spread among Celtic languages, we speak about languages of same families, except Romania,
but Romania had a big substractum from Pannoni Celts, and huge quantities of Roman army (including Byzantine era)
the good example is England, Celts Saxon Normands, and yet we have a language that we consider Germanic, but could be more Celtic.
How much Germanic people needed just to create English language from older Celto - Britonic 2 invsions and ruler class for centuries,

Greco-aryan is a split from a LPIE, from a non centum/satem, like Hettit, sprung 1 satem 1 centum, but according so many centuries of colonies, we haven't seen a sprung different than mother language,
Even in English/Indian (Indians who learn and speak English the times of colonisation)

how many centuries of Latin and Greek last Roman and East Roman empire, yet we see only the small % of Aromani in Balkans speaking Latin, and this mostly where Legions settle, and few Hellenized Galates in Kappadokia,
do you see any Greek speaking outside the areas that we know they were colonised?

But Kekaumenos says a different story:

http://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...age&q=kekaumenos vlachs dacians bessi&f=false




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basarabi_culture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosut_culture

 

[Yetos]

But Kekaumenos says a different story:

http://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...age&q=kekaumenos vlachs dacians bessi&f=false




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basarabi_culture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosut_culture

View attachment 6519

and which is this story?

IN FACT HE SUPPORTS WHAT I SAY, READ BETTER, no need to copy.

 

[Robert6]

In Hungarian Language there are many loanwords from Iranic, and these loanwords are close to Ossetic,
These Hungarian words, presumably borrowed from proto-Ossetian you can find in ->
Collection of works of Abaev "Ossetian Language and Folklore" (USSR Academy of Sciences, 1949).

 

[Alan]

Goran in Kurdish language means shepherd from mountains. There is similar word in Slavic (at least West and East Slavs, not sure about South ones) Goral meaning inhabitant of the mountains, the highlander. Gora means hill/mountain.



I wonder if word Kurgan has Scythian origin, meaning hill, mound? Wikipedia says it is Turkic and Mongolian, but we know that their cultures were heavily influenced by nomadic Scythians.

Le Brok look what I found. German Wikipedia.

Das Urartäische Reich auch kurz Urarṭu, (urartäisch Biainili, assyrisch^KURArtaya ^KURURI akkadisch ^KURUraštu, biblisch vermutlich Ararat)

Urartu was called in Assyrian and Akkadian KUR Artaya and KUR Urastu.

Mitanni (Hittite cuneiform KUR ^URUMi-ta-an-ni, also Mittani Mi-it-ta-ni)

Again indication for KUR beeing a geographic term which describes the mountainous highlands? Kurgan = hill/mountain?

I also still hold on my statemeant that KUR for mountain in Sumerian is an allusion on the Gutians which were a nomadic mountainous people and who lived in the highlands of this area.

 

[albanopolis]

Haha,just found this one,is excelent!
Iranian/Farsi - dest - hand = romanian deget - finger
To understand this more clear,in Farsi you pronounce hand - dast while old Romanian form for deget was desht
The current form of deget was "adjusted" to be cognate with Latin Digitus,meh.
And to see,in Albanian finger is gisht - clear cognate with Romanian desht and Iranian dast.
EDIT:
Forgot to add gisht in Albanian also means hand,not only finger.

You had it right Albanian: finger=gisht (not hand)
Hand=Dora; That's why some Albanians claim that Dorian Greeks were an Albanian tribe.

 

[LeBrok]

In Hungarian Language there are many loanwords from Iranic, and these loanwords are close to Ossetic,
These Hungarian words, presumably borrowed from proto-Ossetian you can find in ->
Collection of works of Abaev "Ossetian Language and Folklore" (USSR Academy of Sciences, 1949).

Right, we completely forgot about Ossetians. From all the Iranic languages they've remained the closest to Eastern Europeans and influenced each others.
There is no doubt that Hungarians being in Asian Steppe must have been influenced by Iranian language of Saka and Sarmatians too.