Are Suabi behind two Galicias?

LeBrok

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Here is a map of Germanic tribe Suebi, Suevi, Swabi migration map:
762px-Vandals_Migration_it.PNG


Here is the better known Galicia:
Z


And this is Galicja (Galitzia), also Galicz/Halicz. It streaches from Krakow in Poland to Moldavia.
entity_3474.jpg
7ecfdd888fc886c7eda7cd2b6a3edca9.jpg


This is exactly the spot where, according to the first map, Suebi have spent few hundred years at.
 
I don't think so, the Galicia of Spain is due to the Celtic tribe of the Gallaeci.
 
I don't think so, the Galicia of Spain is due to the Celtic tribe of the Gallaeci.
When the name Galicia first showed up in written documents?
 
no they werent, even by the stretch of imagination.


Ukrainian province was called like that because of the major city of it, Halych, original name is Halychyna, and its a 13. century thing
 
no they werent, even by the stretch of imagination.


Ukrainian province was called like that because of the major city of it, Halych, original name is Halychyna, and its a 13. century thing
It could have been germanization of the name during Austrio-Hungarian times, from Halich to Galich to Galicia. I also know a person from these mountains who's last name is Galica (Galitza) that makes it even more interesting.
Because of presence of Suabi in Spain, Spanish Galicia could have gone through name germanization too.
 
It could have been germanization of the name during Austrio-Hungarian times, from Halich to Galich to Galicia. I also know a person from these mountains who's last name is Galica (Galitza) that makes it even more interesting.
Because of presence of Suabi in Spain, Spanish Galicia could have gone through name germanization too.

We say Galica for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_sulfate
So it could be that, i know we use galica to scare octopuses out of their holes, when dive hunting them

As for germanization of the name you are right Galicia was AU way to pronounce Halychyna, and it stuck, probably because it was easier to pronounce to the rest of the world
 
We say Galica for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_sulfate
So it could be that, i know we use galica to scare octopuses out of their holes, when dive hunting them

As for germanization of the name you are right Galicia was AU way to pronounce Halychyna, and it stuck, probably because it was easier to pronounce to the rest of the world
I know it is a very very long shot with these two Galicias. It is just so freakishly coincidental with Suabi living in both, that perhaps there could be something in it. I just wanted to bounce this ball off people here.
Maybe they assimilated a local Celtic tribe who lived in Carpathian Galicia and moved them to Spanish one? In this area there is a river San, supposedly river in some Celtic.

I also find pronunciation of Portuguese language similar to Slovak with it's soft ć ś and vowels especially in songs. Not knowing both languages and relying on pronunciation of sung words I was tricked few times thinking that Portuguese song was Slovak or some other Slavic language.

There might be some Celtic substratum connection between two Galicias although I involved Suebi in this thread.
 
It could have been germanization of the name during Austrio-Hungarian times, from Halich to Galich to Galicia. I also know a person from these mountains who's last name is Galica (Galitza) that makes it even more interesting.
Because of presence of Suabi in Spain, Spanish Galicia could have gone through name germanization too.
Sometimes, a look into Wikipedia helps.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)
In 1141 Prince (knyaz) Volodymyrko Volodarovych (1104–1152) who united the competing principalities of Przemyśl, Zvenyhorod and Terebovlya into the state of Halychyna transferred his capital from Zvenyhorod to Halych making it the seat of his Rurikid dynasty and considerably expanding the settlement. (..) The first dynasty of Halych, descending from Vladimir of Novgorod, culminated in Yaroslav Osmomysl (1153–1187) before going extinct in 1199. The same year Roman the Great founded the new Rurikid dynasty, uniting Halychyna and Volhynia into the more powerful principality of Halych-Volhynia. (..) In the 13th century, King Andrew II of Hungary used the style Galicia et Lodomeria - a Latinized version of the Slavic names Halych and Volodymyr, the major cities of the principality of Halych-Volhynia, which the Hungarians ruled from 1214 to 1221.
So, it wasn't Germanization, but Latinization, and occurred already in the 13th century.

This raises of course the question of the origin of the name Halych. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halych
Some historians[who?] speculated it had to do with a group of people of Celtic origin that may have settled nearby, being related to many similar place names found across Europe and Asia Minor, such as ancient Gallia or Gaul (modern France, Belgium, and northern Italy) and Galatia (modern Turkey), the Iberian Peninsula, Galicia, and Romanian Galaţi. (..) Another version postulates "hals", "salt", at the root of "Halych", as the salt trade was a substantial economic factor in the medieval history of Halych. (..) Others[who?] assert that the name has Slavic origins – from halytsa (galitsa), meaning "a naked (unwooded) hill", or from halka (galka) which means "a jackdaw". The jackdaw was used as a charge in the city's coat of arms and later also in the coat of arms of Galicia. The name, however, predates the coat of arms, which may represent canting or simply folk etymology.
Ultimately, Wikipedia settles on the Khwalis, Kaliz or Khalyzians who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars.
Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian army. He first describes them as practising Mosaic law; though whether they were actually Jews is unclear because other editions state that they were Muslims. They were said to have fought against the Byzantine Empire as allies of the tribes of Dalmatia in 1154, during Manuel Comnenus's campaign in the Balkans. Prior to the years 889–92 some Khalis and Kabars (Kavars) of the Khazar realm had joined the Hungarian (Magyar) federation that had conquered and settled in Hungary. (..)
Abraham Harkavy hypothesized that the Khalyzians were refugees fleeing the destruction of their khaganate by the Kievan Rus in the 960s CE and the Pecheneg influx which followed in the 970s. A contemporary of Harkavy's, the Polish historian August Bielkowski, suggested that the Khalyzians were identical with the tribe known in Russian sources as the Khvalisy; hence they may have been connected to the Arsiya.
The province of Khwalis (Khwali-As) on the lower Volga, was the realm of the trading Eastern Iranians; its twin city Amol/Atil, also called Sariycin/Khamlikh. It was ruled by a governor with the title of Tarkhan As-Tarkhan.

Towns named after the Kaliz

Budakalász (Hungary), Kalasz (Hungary/Slovakia), Halych (Ukraine), Kalasë (Albania) and numerous places in Russia (Kalasevo: Respublika Mordoviya), Iran (Kalash Garan: Ostan-e Lorestan), Afghanistan (Kalizeh: Velayat-e Helmand) and Punjab Pakistan (Kalis/Kalas).
Interesting story, especially as we now have another group that may have shuffled haplogroup I2 around and brought it to places like the Respublika Mordoviya.

Question settled? There is a small problem here, namely the Polish city of Kalisz. As Ptolemy already records it as Calissia in 150 AD (though the relation has recently been questioned), it can't be named after the Kaliz. [Oh, no, now we have proof that Islam originated with the Kaliz in Poland and was spread by the Vandals to North Africa. And the Vandals must have been in Mekka, too!]. Instead, this city's name is explained by the Celtic term cal which means stream, or the Slavic term kal, meaning swamp or marsh. But how do we know that this explanation not also applies to various other city names attributed to the Kaliz, including Halych?
 
Sometimes, a look into Wikipedia helps.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

So, it wasn't Germanization, but Latinization, and occurred already in the 13th century.

This raises of course the question of the origin of the name Halych. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halych
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halych
IIRC in this part of Ukraine people pronouns G something in between H-G. In name Bogdan some people think they say g some that they say h. It is in between as Spanish b-v. If there is no letter for this special sound some people will write G some H. I think Russians say Галич, starts with G.


Question settled? There is a small problem here, namely the Polish city of Kalisz. As Ptolemy already records it as Calissia in 150 AD (though the relation has recently been questioned), it can't be named after the Kaliz. [Oh, no, now we have proof that Islam originated with the Kaliz in Poland and was spread by the Vandals to North Africa. And the Vandals must have been in Mekka, too!]. Instead, this city's name is explained by the Celtic term cal which means stream, or the Slavic term kal, meaning swamp or marsh. But how do we know that this explanation not also applies to various other city names attributed to the Kaliz, including Halych?
LoL we can pull it any direction we like it but I don't think there is much dispute among historians that at one point Celtic influence reached to Silesia and Galicia, some even claim that Venethi most likely were a Celtic tribe. Therefore it is not unrealistic to suppose that Halicz or Galiza might be of Celtic origin.
 
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IIRC in this part of Ukraine people pronouns G something in between H-G. In name Bogdan some people think they say g some that they say h. It is in between as Spanish b-v. If there is no letter for this special sound some people will write G some H. I think Russians say Галич, starts with G.


LoL we can pull it any direction we like it but I don't think there is much dispute among historians that at one point Celtic influence reached to Silesia and Galicia, some even claim that Venethi most likely were a Celtic tribe. Therefore it is not unrealistic to suppose that Halicz or Galiza might be of Celtic origin.

maybe you can decifer this Norse geographical text from the 9th century for the areas in question

[h=3]Orosius[/h][h=3] Now we intend to record the boundaries within Europe as far as we know them. From the river Don west to the river Rhine (which has its source in the mountains called the Alps, and runs due north into the arm of the ocean surrounding the land called Britain), and also south to the river Danube (the source of which is near the bank of the river Rhine, from where it runs east, north of Greece out into the Mediterranean), and north to the ocean called the Cwensae; within these boundaries are many tribes but it is all called Germania.
Then to the north of the Danube's source and to the east of the Rhine are the East Franks, and to the south of them are the Swaefas on the other side of the river Danube, and to the south and east of them are the Bcegware - the part called Regensburg - and directly east of them are the Baeme and northeast are the Thyringas. To the north of them are the Old Saxons and northwest of them the Frisians. West of the Old Saxons is the mouth of the river Elbe and Frisland, and northwest from there is the land which is called Angeln and Sillende and some Danish territories. North of them are the Afdrede and northeast the Wilte known as the Haefeldan; east of them is the land of those Wends who are called Sysyle, and southeast the Maroara who extend over a wide territory; the Maroara have to the west of them the Thyringas and some Behemas and half the Begware, and south of them on the other side of the Danube river is the land Carendre extending south as far as the mountains called the Alps. To that same mountain range lie the boundaries of the Begware and Swaefas. Then to the east of the land Carendre beyond the uninhabited district is the land of the Pulgare and east of that is the land of the Greeks. To the east of the land of the Maroara is the land of the Vistula, and east of that are those Datia who were formerly Goths. To the north east of the Maroara are the Dalamentsan and to the east of the Dalamentsan are the Horigti. North of the Dalamentsan are the Surpe and west of them the Sysyle. To the north of the Horigti is Maegtha land and to the north of Maegtha land the Sermende as far as the Riffen mountains. West of the South-Danes is the arm of the ocean surrounding Britain, and north of them is the arm of the sea called Ostsae. To the east and north of them are the North-Danes both on the main lands and on the islands. To the east of them are the Afdrede, and south of them is the mouth of the river Elbe and part of the Old Saxon lands. The North-Danes have to their north the same arm of the sea which is called the Ostsae, east of them are the tribe the Osti, and to the south the Afdrede. The Osti have to the north of them the same arm of the sea and the Wends and the Burgendan; south of them are the Haefeldan. The Burgendan have the arm of that sea to their west and Swedes to the north. East of them are the Sermende and to their south the Surfe. The Swedes have south of them the arm of the Ostsae and to their east the Sermende and to their north beyond the uninhabited land is Cwenland. Northwest of them are the Scridefinne and west are the Norwegians.
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LeBrok, although other board members hinted to it before: the Iberian Galicia and the Central European Galicia are entirely unrelated. The name "Gallaecia" shows up in Roman sources (Pliny) as does the ethnic name "Kallaikoi" in Greek sources (Strabo). These were a pre-Roman, Celtic (or possibly mixed Celtic-Lusitanian) people. The Central European Galicia is probably a medieval formation.
 
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Problem with Celts is is they are more like myth, at least they are viewed as such.


There is no language, nor clear genetic leftover from them, and you could argue, that french, welsh, scots and irish were not celts, but gaul/gael


When i listen to gaul, it sounds like gol to me, and in my language, that means naked.

They did fight naked tho :))
 
LeBrok, although other board members hinted to it before: the Iberian Galicia and the Central European Galicia are entirely unrelated. The name "Gallaecia" shows up in Roman sources (Pliny) as does the ethnic name "Kallaikoi" in Greek sources (Strabo). These were a pre-Roman, Celtic (or possibly mixed Celtic-Lusitanian) people. The Central European Galicia is probably a medieval formation.

Thanks Taranis. Can you comment on word Halych/Galich. What origin it could have?
 
Problem with Celts is is they are more like myth, at least they are viewed as such.
That's true, at the end of a day only Germanic and Slavic tribes were left in the area. We can only suspect and make cultural connection through archaeology.
This is extent of Celtic influence of Hallstatt culture.
Celts_in_Europe.png

There is no language, nor clear genetic leftover from them
There might be Celtic substratum left in pronunciation of some sounds. ʒ́ ć ź ś I can hear them in Portuguese, Irish and of course Slavic.

I think there should be some substratum in Slavic languages because they had expended over some existing populations. I think Polish language is harsher than other Slavic languages possibly due to Germanic substratum. Slavs from Balkans might have some Roman language substratum, or whatever form of Latin was spoken there. Czechs and Slovaks might have some Celtic pronunciation and rhythm left. Ancient population substratum can explain verity of existing dialects in languages.
 
That's true, at the end of a day only Germanic and Slavic tribes were left in the area. We can only suspect and make cultural connection through archaeology.
This is extent of Celtic influence of Hallstatt culture.
Celts_in_Europe.png

There might be Celtic substratum left in pronunciation of some sounds. ʒ́ ć ź ś I can hear them in Portuguese, Irish and of course Slavic.

I think there should be some substratum in Slavic languages because they had expended over some existing populations. I think Polish language is harsher than other Slavic languages possibly due to Germanic substratum. Slavs from Balkans might have some Roman language substratum, or whatever form of Latin was spoken there. Czechs and Slovaks might have some Celtic pronunciation and rhythm left. Ancient population substratum can explain verity of existing dialects in languages.

čćžšđ are often result of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotation in slavic languages, its part of our language law.
They are also purebred sounds, with their own letters, and are part of words, no matter the above.
That means they are not skewed or modified sounds in words, like kentum languages work(and i mean modern germanic and latin languages), because our language doesnt have pronunciation laws, you read every sound as it is written, no exception
That means you cant have situation like for instance, Jack and George, start with different letter that sounds the same, to us it woud al be Đđ; Đek and Đorđ.
We also dont write letters we dont pronounce.

That robustness of our language is actually how original latin was as well, also it makes it easy to recognize foreign words in our diction, because our root of our words are strong and meaningful.

So for instance, stvaranje(creation), has a root word stvar(thing), which is also made from tvar(substance), as well as others like stvor(creature), tvornica(factory)...etc
So from English words above, you can only be sure that creation, and creature are from same language source, and others you need to research.



So you have no support for such claim, i mean just look at your map


Also, if celts were actually people of same origin, not some Roman designation, then you should look western Europeans who got conquered by Romans and Germans respectably, and try to find traces of Celtic influence in modified Latin or old Germanic, like French, Spanish, English... etc, that seems most plausible from historical and genetic perspective.


As for Galitia, you have allready been told its a Latinized version of word that has nothing to do with Gauls
 
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Problem with Celts is is they are more like myth, at least they are viewed as such.


There is no language, nor clear genetic leftover from them, and you could argue, that french, welsh, scots and irish were not celts, but gaul/gael


When i listen to gaul, it sounds like gol to me, and in my language, that means naked.

They did fight naked tho :))

Celt o Kelt are not a myth! It is the name (surely endonym) given by the Greeks to Gauls distinct from Aquitanians and Ligurians (Keltoi) -do read about these namings
 
Celt is a naming as well as Gaul, nothing more - surrely a tribe name -look at one S Iberia tribe... it could explain it disappeared before being used by scholarssby the way a well known Gaul was named Celtiliusin slavic forms (Czch/Slvk/Ukrn) G preceded surely H
 
it could explain it disappeared before being used by scholarssby the way a well known Gaul was named Celtiliusin slavic forms (Czch/Slvk/Ukrn) G preceded surely H
Could you explain more and expend on this thought?
 
Problem with Celts is is they are more like myth, at least they are viewed as such.


There is no language, nor clear genetic leftover from them, and you could argue, that french, welsh, scots and irish were not celts, but gaul/gael


When i listen to gaul, it sounds like gol to me, and in my language, that means naked.

They did fight naked tho :))

Learning a bit about archeology and history would clear up your confusion. There are artifacts that relate to the Celtic linguistic/cultural group all over western Europe, as well as a few stone carvings of Celtic deities, inscriptions written using Latin or Greek to form words from Celtic languages, etc. and the archeological evidence fits nicely with what the Romans and Greeks wrote about the Celtic groups in Britain, Spain (only partly Celtic), France and northern Italy, and the Celtic invasion of Greece. And although the Celtic languages in most parts of Europe have disappeared without leaving much of a trace in the successor languages (just as Gaelic continues to disappear in Ireland and the Scottish Highlands without leaving much of a trace in English), the Celtic language called Gaulic is well attested from the historical period - most of the population of what is now France once spoke a Celtic langauge. For information on Celtic archeology, I would recommend Miranda Green. However, she seems not to be familiar with the written sources available concerning Celtic culture - for that I would recommend the writings of Peter Berresford Ellis.
 
And although the Celtic languages in most parts of Europe have disappeared without leaving much of a trace in the successor languages (just as Gaelic continues to disappear in Ireland and the Scottish Highlands without leaving much of a trace in English), the Celtic language called Gaulic is well attested from the historical period - most of the population of what is now France once spoke a Celtic langauge..

That's actually not quite true. In Moesans's extensive list of Gaelic words, I found various English words with parallels in Gaelic, but not (as far as I am aware) in Germanic (Anglo-Saxons) or French (Normans), From the top of my head, I recall: Baby, doll, boy, girl ..
I`d furthermore assume some Celtic influence in the English Great Vowel Shift.
 

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