DNA from the Bronze Age Altai reveals signs of ancient admixture

[Alan]

They can all be explained by movements from Europe to Asia during the past 5,000 years.

West Asia, including Kurdistan, was a very different place before the Indo-European and Turkic migrations into the area. It was more like a cross between Sardinia and the southern Levant than what it is today.

But so was Europe. When the Indo Europeans evolved in the Bronze Age, The Near East (especially the eastern part and Caucasus) was already not Sardinian-Levantine like anymore.
Future testings and studies will hopefully shed more light to this.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Lol,according to the article here,in Eupedia, R originated in Altai mountains:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
Yes,sure, .
And all people emigrated from there.
If some individual bones belonging to R HG were found in Altai Mountains,how logic is to say R originated in Altai Mountains?
Maybe later will be found even older bones with R HG in another part of the world.

 

[Goga]

Alan and Gogo,

We all know you guys arguing against a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages because of agenda not logic. Your previous posts show that you will argue for any type of origin if it's not European.

You guys miss interpret people who argue for a European origin as being Eurocentric. People are insulting you guys because they are getting fed up with your biased theories and refusal to acknowledge the evidence of a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages, not because they hate west Asians. Both of you should look over this situation, not take insults on the internet so seriously(so you don't dis agree with someone just because they insulted you), and read the evidence again.

LMAO, but there is NO evidence at all Z93 being from Western Steppes at all, just show me 1 recent academic paper that is published in a renowned magazine that support these wild fantasy claims. You believe in your own created fantasies. Although, there're many scientific papers that proof my believes.There’s neither native Z282 nor native Z283 in ancient Central Asia samples. There never ancestors of Asian Z93 has been found in the Western Steppes. There’re no direct links between Z282/Z283 and Z93. Also, I feel sorry for people who have nothing to do with ancient Z93. Neither ancestors nor descendants of Z93 folks do live in EuropeBut you're a free man to live in a different reality, in your dream world. But when you try to come back to a common 'reality' it will be extra hard for you to adapt. And people like you will be the real losers in the real world (common contemp. reality).
From now on I'm going to try to ignore you again...

 

[Goga]

They can all be explained by movements from Europe to Asia during the past 5,000 years.

West Asia, including Kurdistan, was a very different place before the Indo-European and Turkic migrations into the area. It was more like a cross between Sardinia and the southern Levant than what it is today.

Again, more lies. More Assyrian propaganda. Assyrians are Semitic people who are originally from the Red Sea and Arabian Peninsula. Kurdistan mountains were always inhabitant by non-Semitic people. Kurds are native to their homeland and Kurdistan has been always inhabitant by people like Kurds, not like Assyrians, Arabs or other Semites. Semites came from south. Actually Kurdish ancestors from the mountains influenced Semitic (and therefore Assyrian) gene pool. A lot haplogorups native to Kurdistan you can find among Semites, from Levant to Arabia. Sumerians were NOT Semites. People of Ubaid and Halaf civilizations were not Semitic etc. Taurus and Zagros were NEVER Semitic!

 

[Goga]

All what I do ask from you guys are academic EVIDENCES!Nothing more, nothing less. You're arguing with your feelings and not withfacts. And there is no proof at all for West to East migration of R1a in theancient times. If Z93 was from the Western Steppes we would have evidences ofit. We would find ancestral R1a of Z93 in this area. But there're no traces.

 

[Goga]

The issue I have is there is no archaeological data showing influence of the BMAC region north, but there is archaeological evidence showing Andronovo Cultural influence in the BMAC. We have R1a in the Andronovo around 2000BC. No ancient DNA data has shown R1a in the middle east before 2000 BC. There was a strong relationship between the Middle East, BMAC, and the Harappa culture, but little contact between these cultures and the Steppe until 2000 BC when the nomads began to settle down to farm. Andronovo is probably Pro-Indo-Iranian, and brought the language into the Middle East and Northern India from BMAC zone. Andronovo was intrusive into the BMAC zone and a substratum of BMAC words for farming, religion, and urban life can be found in Indo-Iranian from the settling into farms and urban life of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture hybrid culture. There was trade and cultural exchange between the Volga and Mongolia area prior to 4000 BC. After 4000 BC there is evidence for contact of the Volga into Eastern Europe. R1a-M17 is found in small amounts in all known modern areas of R1a distribution. A West Central Asian home land for R1a* south or north of the Caspian Sea is probable according to modern distributions. I would guess north of the Caspian Sea. If ancient R1a is found in the Zargos Mountains or the Iranian Plateau, then I reevaluate my stance. This is all backed up by Mallory and Underhill.

Wrong again, as you can see Andronovo Culture was heavily mixed by the Mongoloid gene pool. There is no such thing around BMAC. And BMAC is totally a different civilization. Just read something about it and you will find it out.
2 different cultures, 2 different races, 2 different civilization. And so called 'Aryans' who invaded India were from BMAC!

 

[matbir]

It looks like there is a need to remind about some basic facts.
1. Genetic studies used for describing population history are complementary to such sciences like History and archeology.
2. According to archeological evidence undeniably there was migration from Yamna culture to Central Asia, which formed Afanasevo culture(3000 - 1700 BC). Before that there is no sign of migration through Ural Mountains, and cultures on both sides of them are distinct in that period in western steppes there were herders while in Central Asia there ware horse hunters.
3. Anthropologically people from Afanasevo, Andronovo and BMAC ware similar to those from Europe.
4. Genetic study shows that R1a-M417 is about 5800 years old(coalescent time), that means it originated about 3800 BC which correspond to Yamna expansion 3400-2700BC. Other lineages of R1a are very rare, probably because R1a was rare haplogroup, but one family made success to go to the vast grass lands taking their wagons polled by horses, so they didn't need to have a camp on side of a river.
5. Ancient DNA reveals migration from Europe to Asia but not in opposite direction.
6. Goga has posted study which concludes that diversity of STR's is higher in India then elsewhere. But in India there is lack of old subclades it is evident that there was migration from areas with older lineages.

Every single evidence shows that Indo-European movement was from Pontic Steppe to Central Asia but not in opposite direction.

In that case is totally irrelevant where R1a originated, because it is old Paleolithic haplogroup. It could have originated every ware from Atlantic coast to Altai Mountains 25 000 years ago.

 

[Alan]

I thought there was evidence of Southern influence into the Yamnaya culture. Wasn't there more recently a study which said that the Kurgan burial system has it's roots somewhere in Mesopotamia or Northwestern Iran?

Kurgan people were darker skinned than modern people from that area, but not in the way Hunters and Gatherers were (very Dark skin + light eyes) but in the way that they likely had Olive like skin and mixed but mostly brown eyes?

 

[polako]

Goga has posted study which concludes that diversity of SNP's is higher in India then elsewhere. But in India there is lack of old subclades it is evident that there was migration from areas with older lineages.

He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.

 

[mihaitzateo]

He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.

Where is the highest diversity of R1A?
I highly doubt that in Eastern European steppe there is high diversity of R1A.

 

[Aberdeen]

Wrong again, as you can see Andronovo Culture was heavily mixed by the Mongoloid gene pool. There is no such thing around BMAC. And BMAC is totally a different civilization. Just read something about it and you will find it out.
2 different cultures, 2 different races, 2 different civilization. And so called 'Aryans' who invaded India were from BMAC!

You seem to be confusing the results from this Altaic find with the results from the Andronovo Culture. The results from Andronovo were 90% R1a and 60% blond haired and light eyed - very different results from these Altaic results, which suggest R1a migration eastward during the Bronze Age. And there is plenty of evidence of BMAC being heavily influenced by the Andronovo Culture.

 

[LeBrok]

It doesn't matter where R1a originated 20k years ago if this discussion is about 4,000 year old Z93 and 6,000 year old origin of IEs.



PS. Please refrain from name calling. I'll be forced to act next time it happens.

 

[polako]

Where is the highest diversity of R1A?
I highly doubt that in Eastern European steppe there is high diversity of R1A.

In West Central Europe. This area has pretty much anything you can think of except the younger Central Asian subclades like L657 and stuff below that, simply because it hasn't been affected by migrations from Central Asia. In fact, L657 is completely missing from all of Europe.

West Central Europe is also where M417 breaks up into CTS4385 and Z645, and of course the main Asian subclade of R1a, which is R1a-Z93, is under Z645.

CTS4385 only exists in Western and Northern Europe, so CTS4385 and Z645 could not have separated far from there, which suggests the vast majority, if not all, Asian R1a is from well inside Europe. The Corded Ware R1a haplotype from Eulau looks CTS4385+.

These are very strong arguments, but many people simply don't understand them.

 

[ebAmerican]

Wrong again, as you can see Andronovo Culture was heavily mixed by the Mongoloid gene pool. There is no such thing around BMAC. And BMAC is totally a different civilization. Just read something about it and you will find it out.
2 different cultures, 2 different races, 2 different civilization. And so called 'Aryans' who invaded India were from BMAC!

Wrong

"There is evidence of sustained contact between the BMAC and the Eurasian steppes to the north, intensifying c. 2000 BCE. In the delta of the River Amu Darya where it reaches the Aral Sea, its waters were channeled for irrigation agriculture by people whose remains resemble those of the nomads of the Andronovo Culture. This is interpreted as nomads settling down to agriculture, after contact with the BMAC. The culture they created is known as Tazabag'yad.^[13] About 1800 BCE the walled BMAC centres decreased sharply in size. Each oasis developed its own types of pottery and other objects. Also pottery of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture to the north appeared widely in the Bactrian and Margian countryside. Many BMAC strongholds continued to be occupied and Andronovo-Tazabagyab coarse incised pottery occurs within them (along with the previous BMAC pottery) as well as in pastoral camps outside the mudbrick walls. In the highlands above the Bactrian oases in Tajikistan, kurgan cemeteries of the Vaksh and Bishkent type appeared with pottery that mixed elements of the late BMAC and Andronovo-Tazabagyab traditions." Wikipedia BMAC

The Aryan invasion of North India used wheeled chariots and burial practices from the Steppe cultures and were a hybrid people with BMAC.

"The answer may lie, says Anthony, in a 3,000-year-old religious text called the Rig Veda, a book of hymns compiled by the Aryans--the horsemen who invaded the Indian subcontinent from the north. The hymns give detailed accounts of Aryan rituals. In mortuary rituals, warriors were buried with their chariots and horses. A plank roof was laid across the burial chamber, and horses and a goat were sacrificed on the roof and again around an earthen mound built on top. A thousand years before the Rig Veda, the Sintashta people were burying their dead in the same way--down to the last eerie detail."

http://discovermagazine.com/1995/apr/chariotracersoft500

 

[Goga]

Where is the highest diversity of R1A?
I highly doubt that in Eastern European steppe there is high diversity of R1A.

Kurdistan. In Kurdistan you can find everything, even the OLDEST types. There are in Kurdistan ancient types of R1a* like the subclade to which I do belong. There're also the European types (Z282/Z283variants) and Asian Z93 types and evolved Aryan/Iranian Z93 types, like mong Kurds and Persians. In Europe, there're no ancient Asian Z93 type at all, nor types that are older than West Asian one. In Europe R1a is VERY young (compared to the type I do belong and maybe even yonger than Z93 itself) and entered Europe in very recent times.

 

[Goga]

Wrong

The Aryan invasion of North India used wheeled chariots and burial practices from the Steppe cultures and were a hybrid people with BMAC.

"The answer may lie, says Anthony, in a 3,000-year-old religious text called the Rig Veda, a book of hymns compiled by the Aryans--the horsemen who invaded the Indian subcontinent from the north. The hymns give detailed accounts of Aryan rituals. In mortuary rituals, warriors were buried with their chariots and horses. A plank roof was laid across the burial chamber, and horses and a goat were sacrificed on the roof and again around an earthen mound built on top. A thoua, t

Impossible, everything is different. archeology, art, way of life, origin/history. Also R1a folks in the Norhern EurAsia were partly Mongoloid as we can see in the first post, full of Y-DNA hg. Q, N1c, and C.
people in BMAC were evolved 'Iranic'/'Aryan' what means that they belonged to much other haplogroups, like Central Asian hg. R2, and West Asian R1a and J2a.

 

[Silesian]

Kurdistan. In Kurdistan you can find everything, even the OLDEST types. There are in Kurdistan ancient types of R1a* like the subclade to which I do belong. There're also the European types (Z282/Z283variants) and Asian Z93 types and evolved Aryan/Iranian Z93 types, like mong Kurds and Persians. In Europe, there're no ancient Asian Z93 type at all, nor types that are older than West Asian one. In Europe R1a is VERY young (compared to the type I do belong and maybe even yonger than Z93 itself) and entered Europe in very recent times.

Grugni et al. Gharbi region combined 109N. It would be interesting to test other adjacent areas to see if the results are similar.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

R*
R1*
R1b*
R1a1a*
R1b1a2*
R1b1a2a*

 

[Sile]

It looks like there is a need to remind about some basic facts.
1. Genetic studies used for describing population history are complementary to such sciences like History and archeology.
2. According to archeological evidence undeniably there was migration from Yamna culture to Central Asia, which formed Afanasevo culture(3000 - 1700 BC). Before that there is no sign of migration through Ural Mountains, and cultures on both sides of them are distinct in that period in western steppes there were herders while in Central Asia there ware horse hunters.
3. Anthropologically people from Afanasevo, Andronovo and BMAC ware similar to those from Europe.
4. Genetic study shows that R1a-M417 is about 5800 years old(coalescent time), that means it originated about 3800 BC which correspond to Yamna expansion 3400-2700BC. Other lineages of R1a are very rare, probably because R1a was rare haplogroup, but one family made success to go to the vast grass lands taking their wagons polled by horses, so they didn't need to have a camp on side of a river.
5. Ancient DNA reveals migration from Europe to Asia but not in opposite direction.
6. Goga has posted study which concludes that diversity of SNP's is higher in India then elsewhere. But in India there is lack of old subclades it is evident that there was migration from areas with older lineages.

Every single evidence shows that Indo-European movement was from Pontic Steppe to Central Asia but not in opposite direction.

In that case is totally irrelevant where R1a originated, because it is old Paleolithic haplogroup. It could have originated every ware from Atlantic coast to Altai Mountains 25 000 years ago.

yes, but its not from the eastern steppes either its from BMAC or Oxus river area ( current turkmenistan more thsi , than uzbekistan )

 

[Sile]

I thought there was evidence of Southern influence into the Yamnaya culture. Wasn't there more recently a study which said that the Kurgan burial system has it's roots somewhere in Mesopotamia or Northwestern Iran?

Kurgan people were darker skinned than modern people from that area, but not in the way Hunters and Gatherers were (very Dark skin + light eyes) but in the way that they likely had Olive like skin and mixed but mostly brown eyes?

there is

This theory of a barrier between south caucasus and north Caucasus is a myth, propaganda or whatever you want to call it...........It's some form or "Purity of race" for eastern europeans, I do not not why they state this

 

[Sile]

He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.

your comments 2, 3 and 4 insinuate that R1b must have also gone with R1a via eastern European or did these ancients have the knowledge to know which haplotype they where?

Clearly R1a and R1b split from R ................where is the origins or R ?