The Byzantine Empire must be revived

I recently learned about the Nazis in history class and wrote a paper on Adolf Hitler. All that I remember finding about his religious beliefs was that he was raised Catholic, left the faith when he left home, and feared away from religious debates when he was a politician because the German people were traditionally very Christian.

Also, Wikipedia agrees with sources I used(can't find them now).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Jesus said the only way to the father is through him, if you don't believe that you're not a Christian plain and simple. Saying someone is not a Christian because of that is not being judgmental it is being factual.

Read what Hitler actually wrote and said publicly (repeatedly). The fact that he was a murderous lunatic doesn't prove that his repeated professions of faith were insincere, it just proves that he didn't look at christianity the same way a lot of other people did. As for Wikipedia, if the last person who edited a particular page about Hitler wanted him to be an atheist and wasn't too concerned about facts, that's what that person would write. And that's why Wikipedia is only really useful to lead you to source documents, which must be judged on their own merit or lack thereof.

And no, you don't get to define what christianity is for everyone else. There have been all sorts of interpretations of what it's about over the centuries by people who considered themselves good christians. If you think, for example, that belief in the christian trinity is central to being a christian, that would suggest that Hitler was more of a christian than the "Oneness" pentacostal types are, but I doubt they'd agree with that assessment. As for Hitler's ideas about christianity being heretical, since I know someone is going to bring that one up, the religious ideas of St. Francis of Assisi were also heretical but the christians want to keep him, because he was a really nice guy.
 
What?! Stating that faith of your parents might not be true is an insult? It is pretty much description that all people could be wrong in anything. It is a general truth of human nature, we do make mistakes. Should I apologize to all humans? Do you feel insulted when I tell you that you don't know everything?

Don't act innocent. "I hope that by now you noticed, that just because you learnt your religion from your beloved parents, it doesn't make it true." There is sarcasm and insult written all over that statement. You are lying to yourself if you don't admit it.


Possibly so, you just have difficulty considering and contemplating other's point of view.

I honestly don't understand how you came to this conclusion. I dis agree with some people, it is not a crime. You appear just as close minded as me when you argue for something.

Lol, you are ignorant after all. Did Jefferson, Lincoln, Marx or Einstein have meaningless lives? Since when I don't believe in family?
Just becuase your ethics might be a tad different than Marx's it doesn't mean he didn't have any. Your black and white world must be very scary for you. Only you are Christian, only you have morals and ethics, only you can see the truth, everybody with different opinion is attacking you. Dude, can't you see how ridiculous your point of view is?

Lincoln, Jefferson, and Einstein were not the far left types I am referring to. There is a trend in leftism to be anti-moral, and there are some who go to an honestly violent and evil extreme, they are who I am referring to. You don't understand, there is nothing wrong with having an opinion and dis agreeing with other people. I have my own ideas of morality and I dis agree on some points with others. Being open minded is not believing in their idea's as much as my own. Are you close minded for believing Mesolithic Europeans are most related to Baltic populations, and saying someone who believes they are most closely related to Chinese is wrong?

There are core believes of Christianity and if someone does not believe in them, by definition they are not Christians. I don't read minds and so I can't know if someone believes in those core believes or not though. I never said for someone to be Christian they have to be just like me in every way. Having a faith is not believing in your faith and not believing in it at the same time. You're miss interpreting how I think.

Morality and Ethics are rules of interaction between human beings. You don't need ethics or morals for a country of one man. Whenever there is a group of people there must be rules, so they can coexist together. Christians or Marxists consist of many people therefore need morals and ethic (not mentioning codexes of laws for many segments of life and work). Even though these two groups don't have same sets of ethics they do have them. Actually in more instances than not they have similar ethics. They both emphasise importance of hard work and working together, they both emphasize justice and equal sharing (actually marxists more than christians), group order and peaceful coexistence are addressed, family life, protection of children, property rights, etc, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_socialism
Please, don't confuse again lack of ethics with groups having few differences.

If the left is as morally sound as you describe I am very happy because that means the west isn't going to be as messed up as I thought. I don't care much about little points like you think, I care about people who believe that there should be no family and people should be raised by the state like Karl Marx did(sick and unnatural). I care about people in the 1970's who were so twisted and hateful that they created plans to destroy the traditional family, and they claimed the best way was through gay marriage. I don't care much about the gay stuff anymore as long as people keep to themselves, but it makes you wonder if there is some type of conspiracy when also considering liberal dominance of the media(incredible influence on everyday people), a crazy idea but possible.


That we know, what baffles me is how in tender age of 16 you assumed that what you were taught was right or wrong? If you have different religion than your parents, I would say that you made your own choice, gathered info, did some thinking and made an educated choice. Otherwise you just believe what you were taught with no choice.

I understand your point, and I have understood this my whole life. My parents did not grow up in religious families and they make it clear that you can make your own chose. I know that it was passed down to me, and I am fine with that. If you really want to get deep in this topic, we have to discuss how a person develops mentally(all the differnt factors that contribute to it), etc. etc. etc. I am tired and I have work to do i don't feel like doing that.
 
Read what Hitler actually wrote and said publicly (repeatedly). The fact that he was a murderous lunatic doesn't prove that his repeated professions of faith were insincere, it just proves that he didn't look at christianity the same way a lot of other people did. As for Wikipedia, if the last person who edited a particular page about Hitler wanted him to be an atheist and wasn't too concerned about facts, that's what that person would write. And that's why Wikipedia is only really useful to lead you to source documents, which must be judged on their own merit or lack thereof.

And no, you don't get to define what christianity is for everyone else. There have been all sorts of interpretations of what it's about over the centuries by people who considered themselves good christians. If you think, for example, that belief in the christian trinity is central to being a christian, that would suggest that Hitler was more of a christian than the "Oneness" pentacostal types are, but I doubt they'd agree with that assessment. As for Hitler's ideas about christianity being heretical, since I know someone is going to bring that one up, the religious ideas of St. Francis of Assisi were also heretical but the christians want to keep him, because he was a really nice guy.

You can't put any believe under Christian!!! If you don't believe Jesus died and rose from the dead, defeated death, is the only one who can forgive your sins, and the only way to live eternally with God, you're not a Christian, it means you made up you're own religion and labeled it as Christian. In the end the only person to judge if someone believes those things or not is God.

Honestly I don't care if Hitler claimed to be a Christian or not.

I am tired of typing, I'll treat you two later, when I finally can get MSB.
 
You might want to ask yourself at what point all the nonsense you were taught about "evil liberals" stops being about religion and becomes more about the plutocrats wanting to have obedient slaves who won't question whether what they've been taught really is the One True Way. But all this is getting way off topic. The discussion is whether the Byzantine Empire should be revived. I vote no, but it has nothing to do with the fact that American Republichristians wouldn't consider Greek Orthodox types to be True Christians. I think the whole 'emperor" concept and the idea of one nationality ruling over others is more problematic than any religious quibble.
 
No, no. It is the religious problem.
If Turks weren't rigid and adopted Christianity after the fall of Constantinople, they probably would have been a prosperous European nation by the time of Age of Revolution. Their backwards culture and religion kept them in stagnation, and left the whole region in turmoil. We all know that there are really not much real Turks in today's Turkey. Those are mostly descendants of old Anatolian population.

If there hadn't been for Russian Empire and constant support of Ottoman Empire against it, Turkey would probably never happen.
 
You might want to ask yourself at what point all the nonsense you were taught about "evil liberals" stops being about religion and becomes more about the plutocrats wanting to have obedient slaves who won't question whether what they've been taught really is the One True Way.

I am sure my dedicated and loving parents are evil plutocrats and are behind some conspiracy. I am sure the way you grew up helped create you're political ideas. Everything you dis agree with is not a conspiracy created made to control people? Argue in a civilized way, you should read Maciamo's rules of logic, personal attacks is no way to convince people.

Lets stop with the insulting, and attacks on people's families. We can dis agree and respect each other at the same time.
 
I am sure my dedicated and loving parents are evil plutocrats and are behind some conspiracy. I am sure the way you grew up helped create you're political ideas. Everything you dis agree with is not a conspiracy created made to control people? Argue in a civilized way, you should read Maciamo's rules of logic, personal attacks is no way to convince people.

Lets stop with the insulting, and attacks on people's families. We can dis agree and respect each other at the same time.

Actually, I didn't mention your family at all. After all, there are a lot of people out there who sincerely believe nonsense and teach it to others and I have no idea who taught you what you believe. I'm merely suggesting that you might want to consider who benefits when people are taught to believe that anyone who isn't an American Republichristian is an evil librul who eats kittens and wants to destroy "the family".

I don't think you're the best person to be criticizing people for making personal attacks on others since you've been doing a bit of it yourself. Now, can we please get back to the New Byzantine Empire? (I vote against it, but that probably won't matter to the emperor.)
 
Actually, I didn't mention your family at all. After all, there are a lot of people out there who sincerely believe nonsense and teach it to others and I have no idea who taught you what you believe. I'm merely suggesting that you might want to consider who benefits when people are taught to believe that anyone who isn't an American Republichristian is an evil librul who eats kittens and wants to destroy "the family".

You are stero typing me I don't believe that, in no way should my comments have made you come to that conclusion about me. Just because i dis agree with the left, does not mean I am your stero type of a conservative. My family never taught me to be a hater. I came up to many of my conclusions on my own, and my family doesn't really give a crap about politics and history like I do, they are actually annoyed by how much I care. Like I said before the atmosphere you grew up in certainly helped create your political mind.


I don't think you're the best person to be criticizing people for making personal attacks on others since you've been doing a bit of it yourself. Now, can we please get back to the New Byzantine Empire? (I vote against it, but that probably won't matter to the emperor.)


Many of your posts are full high and might snobby insults. You arrogant assumption that I am an ignorant brain washed little child, and that you are a wise adult who can teach me the way, clear of faults, and wise beyond comprehension is insulting. Stop treating me as if I am a far-right extremist because I am not. I almost always insult after they insult me in the same snobby way you do, not saying that justifies it but you need to understand the circumstances.

You and Lebrok clearly first insulted me, and also insulted my FAMILY and that is 100% not acceptable. Both of you deserve some type of penalty. We can argue and dis agree, but still respect each other.
 
Before Turks, the Constantinople was ransacked by Crusaders. Just a small description of what Christians can do to other Christians: " The Library of Constantinople was destroyed.[11] Despite their oaths and the threat of excommunication, the Crusaders systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying or stealing all they could lay hands on: nothing was spared. The civilian population of Constantinople were subject to the Crusaders' ruthless lust for spoils and glory: thousands of them were killed in cold blood. Women, even nuns, were raped by the Crusader army, which also sacked churches, monasteries and convents. The very altars of these churches were smashed and torn to pieces for their gold and marble by the warriors who had sworn to fight in service of Christendom without question."

And of course: "The sack weakened the Byzantine Empire, which allowed neighboring groups like the Sultanate of Rum, and later the Ottoman Turks, to gain influence (see the Byzantine–Ottoman Wars)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(1204)

So, "Muslims are bad" "Christians are good" is a black and white thinking, infancy.
 
But, prior to the above, this happened:

"The Massacre of the Latins (Italian: Massacro dei Latini; Greek: Σφαγή των Λατίνων) was a large-scale massacre of the Roman Catholic (called "Latin") inhabitants of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire, by the Eastern Orthodox population of the city in May 1182.[1][2]


The Roman Catholics of Constantinople at that time dominated the city's maritime trade and financial sector.[1] Although precise numbers are unavailable, the bulk of the Latin community, estimated at over 60,000 at the time,[1] was wiped out or forced to flee. The Genoese and Pisan communities especially were decimated, and some 4,000 survivors were sold as slaves to the (Turkish) Sultanate of Rum.[3]

The ensuing massacre was indiscriminate: neither women nor children were spared, and Latin patients lying in hospital beds were murdered.[4] Houses, churches, and charitable institutions were looted.[4] Latin clergymen received special attention, and Cardinal John, the papal legate, was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins
 
Before Turks, the Constantinople was ransacked by Crusaders. Just a small description of what Christians can do to other Christians: " The Library of Constantinople was destroyed.[11] Despite their oaths and the threat of excommunication, the Crusaders systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying or stealing all they could lay hands on: nothing was spared. The civilian population of Constantinople were subject to the Crusaders' ruthless lust for spoils and glory: thousands of them were killed in cold blood. Women, even nuns, were raped by the Crusader army, which also sacked churches, monasteries and convents. The very altars of these churches were smashed and torn to pieces for their gold and marble by the warriors who had sworn to fight in service of Christendom without question."

And of course: "The sack weakened the Byzantine Empire, which allowed neighboring groups like the Sultanate of Rum, and later the Ottoman Turks, to gain influence (see the Byzantine–Ottoman Wars)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(1204)

So, "Muslims are bad" "Christians are good" is a black and white thinking, infancy.

If you're interested in that period and haven't read it, I can recommend The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople by Jonathan Phillips.

From the book, "Almost 800 years later, in the summer of 2000, Pople John Paul 11 issued an extraordinary statement-an apology to the Greek Orthodox Church for the terrible slaughter perpetrated by Venice and the warriors of the Fourth Crusade...Thefact that the pople felt the need to issue such a document...reveals just how deep a wound had been left by this long-distant campaign."

And yet, as you point out in a subsequent post, it was preceded by a massacre of Latin Christians by the Byzantines, and followed by the brutalities of the Ottoman conquest.

Then, just a few days ago, I saw the movie Twice Born, directed by Sergio Castellito and starring Penelope Cruz in an outstanding performance, which in addition to dealing with other things, depicted the horrors that took place during the siege of Sarajevo, including the mass rape of women as an instrument of war and ethnic cleansing. Those monsters still walk amongst us.

Indeed, as the UN doctor in that movie stated, "It makes me ashamed to be a human being".

And no, I don't think getting rid of religion will stop it. The horrors perpetrated by both the Nazis and the Communists had nothing essentially to do with religion, just as World War I had nothing to do with religion. Or what went on in Ceaucescu's Romania, which I saw at first hand, or North Korea, which I didn't but which is well known, or what happened to the Tutsi in Africa. The cause lies deeper. It's a sickness of the soul.
 
No, no. It is the religious problem.
If Turks weren't rigid and adopted Christianity after the fall of Constantinople, they probably would have been a prosperous European nation by the time of Age of Revolution. Their backwards culture and religion kept them in stagnation, and left the whole region in turmoil. We all know that there are really not much real Turks in today's Turkey. Those are mostly descendants of old Anatolian population.
.
You remember that the richest part of Europe through all Middle Ages were Islamic Al Andalus with biggest city in Europe Cordoba, till it was destroyed and million books burned by Christians?
 
If you're interested in that period and haven't read it, I can recommend The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople by Jonathan Phillips.

From the book, "Almost 800 years later, in the summer of 2000, Pople John Paul 11 issued an extraordinary statement-an apology to the Greek Orthodox Church for the terrible slaughter perpetrated by Venice and the warriors of the Fourth Crusade...Thefact that the pople felt the need to issue such a document...reveals just how deep a wound had been left by this long-distant campaign."

And yet, as you point out in a subsequent post, it was preceded by a massacre of Latin Christians by the Byzantines, and followed by the brutalities of the Ottoman conquest.

Then, just a few days ago, I saw the movie Twice Born, directed by Sergio Castellito and starring Penelope Cruz in an outstanding performance, which in addition to dealing with other things, depicted the horrors that took place during the siege of Sarajevo, including the mass rape of women as an instrument of war and ethnic cleansing. Those monsters still walk amongst us.

Indeed, as the UN doctor in that movie stated, "It makes me ashamed to be a human being".

And no, I don't think getting rid of religion will stop it. The horrors perpetrated by both the Nazis and the Communists had nothing essentially to do with religion, just as World War I had nothing to do with religion. Or what went on in Ceaucescu's Romania, which I saw at first hand, or North Korea, which I didn't but which is well known, or what happened to the Tutsi in Africa. The cause lies deeper. It's a sickness of the soul.

Thank you for your comments and for the reference. I have been reading about Byzantine a long time ago when I was trying to understand the roots of my ancestors, their oldest surname was Despot, and we still have that surname but in a more accepted Albanian version. I never really found out why my ancestors were known as despots since all the members of the family simply decided to neglect that part of their history, no one can provide me with an answer.

Why I copy-pasted from wikipedia was just to a avoid my subjectivity.

We Albanians are intertwined with Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman reign, we were in the middle of it all and we are pretty much aware that religions can all be "bad" and "good", what matters is tolerance.

What is the solution? Transcendence, since religious beliefs or atheism are both part of the same medal, both can become extreme and absorbed with their so called absolute truth. We cannot fight it, unfortunately those are just phases that humanity needs to get through in order to reach new heights of mental complexities. It is like moving from a two-dimensional world into the three dimensional world, suddenly one realizes that there is more to it then just simply thinking that one way is the best. Same happens when a junkie "finds" God and spirituality and realizes that there is more to life than just a short term pleasure (quick fixes).
 
Regarding the title of the thread, I would quote the famous saying of Albert Einstein: "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." And imagine trying to solve new complex problems with an old dead way.

Longing for those days and glorifying them shows inability to adapt to the reality (present life conditions), or in other words,rigidity.
 
How about more teaching more tolerance to make Unification stronger. Remember how Alexander the Great (the one you so fond of) embraced every religion of every country he conquered. He even became pharaoh with blessing of Egyptian priests.
You have so many great Geeks philosophers, scientists and conquerors showing you the right way to live or build a strong union, but you don't like their teachings for some reason.
Socrates and Hypatia, just to name couple from long lineup) would cry hearing what you're saying and dreaming of.

I have no problem with other religions, or atheism.
I hope this answers your questions.

With respect,
-3|E-
 
Regarding the title of the thread, I would quote the famous saying of Albert Einstein: "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." And imagine trying to solve new complex problems with an old dead way.

Longing for those days and glorifying them shows inability to adapt to the reality (present life conditions), or in other words,rigidity.

Who said it would be with exactly the same format as the Old Empire?
 
we turks are native Anatolians. LONG LIVE ANCİENT ANATOLİANS!

I don't think so. Turks are no natives of Anatolia.

If you use another name to describe the actual Anatolians, then we can talk about it.

To cut a long story short, I advise you to be very careful when you use ethnicities to describe the whole population of an area, although they may be the minority of it, but you don't know, or pretend that you don't know.
 
How about more teaching more tolerance to make Unification stronger. Remember how Alexander the Great (the one you so fond of) embraced every religion of every country he conquered. He even became pharaoh with blessing of Egyptian priests.
You have so many great Geeks philosophers, scientists and conquerors showing you the right way to live or build a strong union, but you don't like their teachings for some reason.
Socrates and Hypatia, just to name couple from long lineup) would cry hearing what you're saying and dreaming of.

I don't think so.

BTW, I feel offended by this statement, as being a direct and personal attack to my personality. To whom should I talk about this, so he will make you more tolerant about others' opinion and at the same time more respectful? Being a mod you should understand these stuff I suppose.
 

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