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Thread: Free and independent Kurdistan is coming soon.

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgnusDei View Post
    I don't understand how people cannot understand that a Kurdish state is a far-fetched possibility. This would threaten the territorial integrity of a U.S. ally and a NATO member,namely, Turkey .
    It will also be a threat to Iran(Russia's ally), not to mention that we live in a post-WWII world where it is almost impossible to create a new state especially in the Middle East.
    You dont seem to understand or have not much knowledge about this subject.Turkey just recently gave it's support to a Kurdish state.

    June 30, 2014

    ANKARA,— Turkey's Justice and Development Party (AK Party) Deputy Chairman Hüseyin Çelik has indicated that Turkey will recognize a Kurdish state in northern Iraq if the crisis-stricken country is divided, the Financial Times reported on Saturday.

    “If Iraq is divided and it is inevitable, [the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG)] are our brothers. … Unfortunately, the situation in Iraq is not good and it looks like it is going to be divided,” Çelik said in his remarks to the Financial Times.

    He also reportedly said that although an independent Kurdish state was previously a reason for war for Turkey, no one has the right to say so now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You dont seem to understand or have not much knowledge about this subject.Turkey just recently gave it's support to a Kurdish state.
    Turkey has its own big problems now, and elections, in turkey kemalists Army and Islamic politicians etc have different opinions,
    they have the 2nd biggest army in Nato, their politics is always a spell, a puzzle.
    Although its a sign, as some reformations that have been done about Kurdish language last decades,
    yet believe me will not allow a huge and modern army to be build next to her,
    Last edited by Yetos; 10-08-14 at 16:35.
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    I see the stars lining up for Kurdistan.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You dont seem to understand or have not much knowledge about this subject.Turkey just recently gave it's support to a Kurdish state.
    Well, there is a difference between an official statement and a random political party statement.

    A Kurdish state would be a bothersome issue for Turkey because its Kurdish population would do anything to join the newly formed,oil-rich, Kurdistan.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by AgnusDei View Post
    Well, there is a difference between an official statement and a random political party statement.

    A Kurdish state would be a bothersome issue for Turkey because its Kurdish population would do anything to join the newly formed,oil-rich, Kurdistan.

    The statement came from the official Turkish foreign minister who belongs to the ruling Party. And similar statements came from other high positions. Even if Turkey didn't accept in the long run they wouldn't be able to halt this. So it is better in Turkish interests to accept and have economic ties, instead of stubbornly stand in the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The statement came from the official Turkish foreign minister who belongs to the ruling Party. And similar statements came from other high positions. Even if Turkey didn't accept in the long run they wouldn't be able to halt this. So it is better in Turkish interests to accept and have economic ties, instead of stubbornly stand in the way.
    Exactly. I think Turkey is more tolerant to Kurds these days. There is even candidate in recent presidential election in Turkey of Kurdish ethnicity!

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    Referendum is coming soon.

    There was an amazing news today. Kurds could seize the moment and create their own country on a spot with one decree of government or military order. There is no one in position to go against their will at the moment especially when they are allies with US and European Union (french diplomats just arrived in Arbil). But listen to this, the Kurdish government, chose to go with referendum and let people decide if they want an independent country. I'm sure it will be the landslide victory for independent Kurdistan, but how righteous of Kurds to ask the question to the public, even though there was not much need.
    I have a feeling that referendum is more about setting the Kurdistan borders with Iraq, than if there should be Kurdistan. Wherever majority of Kurds live their land will be included in new country.
    I'm sure they will ask for international observers to make the process valid and transparent by international standards.

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    Finally Obama will send serious military weapons to Kurdistan directly. So far Kurds are fighting with AK-47, because 200 million dollar worth of military equipment never left Baghdad. It is most likely lining up pockets of Maliki and his cronies.

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    I think a little delay in Free Kurdistan is about to happen. Iraq forces, got brave and got their act together sheltered by US Air Force, are pushing forward and are in numbers around Kurdistan. As long as they show some vitality as a organized nation US won't support Kurds in their quest for independence. From US perspective on united and strong Iraq is a better equalizer and opposition to Iran and Islamic fanatics in the area.
    As "noble" goal as it seams, it is unwise pushing this agenda any longer in my opinion. Iraq in old borders is pretty much unsustainable and finished forever. Besides, Shia part of Iraq is already strongly pro Iranian, to the degree that Iran is allowed to pump Iraq's oil.
    Anyway Kurds will not get strong support of US in creation of Kurdistan, and Kurds might elect to wait for a better moment in the future. For example when corruption will bring Iraq down some more or Shiats ruling the country decide to go with theocracy instead of democracy. However when Kurds strongly will proceed with referendum about independence US will not react much.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think a little delay in Free Kurdistan is about to happen. Iraq forces, got brave and got their act together sheltered by US Air Force, are pushing forward and are in numbers around Kurdistan..
    Thats not really true. Let me honest with you. Despite the current news "Kurdish forces and Iraqi Army" liberating the Mosul Dam, it was nothing more than Kurdish forces doing it. It's basically your usual Media agenda of trying to show a non existing "unity" between Peshmerga and Iraqi Army.

    Let me tell you why. Those "Iraqi forces" who allegedly fought side by side with Peshmerga by taking back tha dam are actually the Golden Brigade which is a Kurdish-Arab mixed division of the Iraqi Army led by the Kurdish General Fazil Berwari.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyp_Xv3KivA

    With other words the only still functioning Iraqi Division is Kurdish.


    The Iraqi Army is busy with trying to retake Tikrit which they failed to gain control of. It's kind of a shame that the Iraqi Army is getting some fame for the work of the Peshmerga just to "praise" some non existing unity in Iraq.

    In non of the fights in the North has the Iraqi Army played any role. From the liberation of Sinjar to the liberation of Mosul Dam. In fact the Kurdish forces of Syria and the PKK have played a bigger role than the Iraqi Army.

    But I agree Independence currently probably won't happen but everything speaks for an Confederation. I hope the new Iraqi government won't be that bad as the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think a little delay in Free Kurdistan is about to happen. Iraq forces, got brave and got their act together sheltered by US Air Force, are pushing forward and are in numbers around Kurdistan. As long as they show some vitality as a organized nation US won't support Kurds in their quest for independence. From US perspective on united and strong Iraq is a better equalizer and opposition to Iran and Islamic fanatics in the area.
    As "noble" goal as it seams, it is unwise pushing this agenda any longer in my opinion. Iraq in old borders is pretty much unsustainable and finished forever. Besides, Shia part of Iraq is already strongly pro Iranian, to the degree that Iran is allowed to pump Iraq's oil.
    Anyway Kurds will not get strong support of US in creation of Kurdistan, and Kurds might elect to wait for a better moment in the future. For example when corruption will bring Iraq down some more or Shiats ruling the country decide to go with theocracy instead of democracy. However when Kurds strongly will proceed with referendum about independence US will not react much.
    USA are most likely falsely promising a Kurdish nation to the Kurds so they can get the Kurds to fight against these IsIs .

    A promise from the USA in regards to this matter is utterly useless, do you actually think , turkey, syria, irag and iran will give up any land for a kurdish nation!............what are some of you people taking!
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    USA are most likely falsely promising a Kurdish nation to the Kurds so they can get the Kurds to fight against these IsIs .

    A promise from the USA in regards to this matter is utterly useless, do you actually think , turkey, syria, irag and iran will give up any land for a kurdish nation!............what are some of you people taking!
    Iraq nor Syria have any power to say a word anymore. Turkish and Iranian Kurdistan wasn't even on the debate. We are merely talking here about Iraqi Kurdistan. We do not trust on promises of anyone we are taking our own steps. If their is one thing we have learned from our history it is not to rely too much on other countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Iraq nor Syria have any power to say a word anymore. Turkish and Iranian Kurdistan wasn't even on the debate. We are merely talking here about Iraqi Kurdistan. We do not trust on promises of anyone we are taking our own steps. If their is one thing we have learned from our history it is not to rely too much on other countries.
    Iraq is an internationally recognized state. As such living Iraq is not easy unless you are supported by other countries. We are not saying Kurdistan does not deserve independence. The problem is the minute you proclaim your state you have to be recognized by major word countries. There is not such a movement right now. The major power who can guarantee it is USA. Then the border becomes an issue. There will be fight over the border. I don't see any push for Kurdish independence. Turkey has a big say since it is a Nato member.
    Myself I am a supporter of Kurdish state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    USA are most likely falsely promising a Kurdish nation to the Kurds so they can get the Kurds to fight against these IsIs .
    USA is supporting united Iraq more than free Kurdistan.
    A promise from the USA in regards to this matter is utterly useless, do you actually think , turkey, syria, irag and iran will give up any land for a kurdish nation!............what are some of you people taking!
    As Alan mentioned Syria and Iraq are failed states and have much bigger problems to address at the moment. In current form don't have enough arm forces to engage in long fight with Kruds. We are talking now basically about only part of Iraq becoming Kurdistan. Parts of Iran or Turkey wouldn't be affected. In this case there is no reason for Iran or Turkey to cross borders to other country to fight Kurds.

    It is very important, not to lose too much blood when struggle is impossible. It is much easier to wait for the right moment to get your freedom. Like right now when Syria and Iraq is in shambles. There will be a good time in the future to increase Kurdistan when some revolution sweeps through Iran and current theocracy will fall. And hopefully in couple of decades Turkey will be more democratic and libertarian and will allow referendum among their Kurdish population to split. Who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Iraq is an internationally recognized state.
    So was USSR and Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Things change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Iraq is an internationally recognized state. As such living Iraq is not easy unless you are supported by other countries. We are not saying Kurdistan does not deserve independence. The problem is the minute you proclaim your state you have to be recognized by major word countries. There is not such a movement right now. The major power who can guarantee it is USA. Then the border becomes an issue. There will be fight over the border. I don't see any push for Kurdish independence. Turkey has a big say since it is a Nato member.
    Myself I am a supporter of Kurdish state.
    For Gods sake Iraq is dead. It has failed to protect it's citizens in most neaded time and Kurdistan had to do it for Iraq. If Kurdistan decided tommorow to declare independence what could Iraq do? send their Iraqi Army?

    We already have the support of most important countries. They told the PM IF we decide to decide independence no one will put stones in our way but of course they say they would prefer a "unified Iraq". EVEN Turkey has changed it's tone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    For Gods sake Iraq is dead. It has failed to protect it's citizens in most neaded time and Kurdistan had to do it for Iraq. If Kurdistan decided tommorow to declare independence what could Iraq do? send their Iraqi Army?

    We already have the support of most important countries. They told the PM IF we decide to decide independence no one will put stones in our way but of course they say they would prefer a "unified Iraq". EVEN Turkey has changed it's tone.
    He who controls Mossoul, can be powerfull,
    in the begining do not wait much, an autonomous area with supervisors,
    bargains on oil prices, and military bases, that is for start, and you know it,
    but according the behavior in time, that might chance and bring the reality of the dream, the new era,
    patience and good political desicions is the key,

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    So was USSR and Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Things change.
    I am not suggesting its impossible. There has to be international support for such movements. I see a rush to arm Kurds from European powers at the moment, but I am not sure if that is a sign of independence coming. Kurds can get independence if they do the right movements with their oil fields.

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    I am not suggesting its impossible. There has to be international support for such movements. I see a rush to arm Kurds from European powers at the moment, but I am not sure if that is a sign of independence coming. Kurds can get independence if they do the right movements with their oil fields.
    Oil fields will definitely help and allow them to buy their own weapons when they have their own state.

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    Kurdish Commander Says Baghdad Blocking Foreign Arms to Peshmerga


    On the frontlines, Peshmerga commanders say their men are still fighting with outdated equipment. AP file photo.

    KHAZIR, Iraq – Peshmerga commanders on the frontlines of the war with the Islamic State armies say their men have received none of the weapons delivered by foreign governments, blaming interference by Baghdad.


    “We have not had the delivery of weapons from our international partners,” said Rowsch Shaways, Iraq’s outgoing deputy prime minister, who is a Kurd and serves as a commander of Kurdish forces leading an offensive toward Mosul.


    “Right now Baghdad is the reason why this hasn’t happened,” Shaways told Rudaw from a command center southeast of Mosul, only a kilometer from enemy lines.


    At another base near Gwar, General Sirwan Barzani also lamented that his division has “seen nothing of the new weapons.”


    The United States, France, Albania, Italy, Germany and Britain have expressed their willingness to provide military aid to the autonomous Kurds in the fight against the Islamic State (IS/formerly ISIS).


    Yet, each has sought to coordinate the process through Baghdad, whose relations with the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) remain severely strained. Much of the tension has been blamed on Nouri al-Maliki, who was recently forced down from seeking a third term as prime minister.


    Since the IS began a rout of the Iraqi army in June, the Peshmerga have emerged as the only local force standing up to the militants.


    Over the past several weeks, Kurdish military officials have said their forces had new, heavy weapons, without revealing their origins or other details. But the comments by commanders did not confirm that.


    On the frontlines, several officers explained they were making progress in the fight against IS, but Shaways remained adamant that they need American and European weapons.


    Kurdish leaders acknowledge an arms upgrade will be necessary to face the well-armed and disciplined insurgent force without suffering heavy casualties, since a series of difficult challenges, such as the recapture of Mosul, still lie ahead.


    Asked if he believed the delivery would happen soon, Shaways struggled to contain his concern: “If (Baghdad) wants to defeat ISIS ---- our common enemy -- then they will make sure we get the weapons as soon as possible,” he said.


    Although Iraqi security forces and the Peshmerga cooperated in the recapture of the strategic Mosul Dam this week, Baghdad has been reluctant to take any measures that would further strengthen the Kurdish military, a formidable force despite its outdated equipment.


    Kurdish parties are working with Prime Minister-designate Haider al-Abadi to form a government, but there is no guarantee that the new administration will be able to reverse the disastrous course set by Maliki and prevent the further disintegration of Iraq.


    Cooperation on pressing matters of national security, such as the fight against IS, remains the most basic stress-test of Erbil’s current relationship with Baghdad, lending the arms delivery a heightened importance.
    That happens if Western states still insist on "permission" from Baghdad, which failed to secure it's citizens for weapon delivery. As if any of those countries insisted on Gaddafi permission to arm the "rebels". Baghdad doesn't care about civilian lives. Iraqis are like this better get killed by IS than give Kurds any power. They are not able to defend themselves and block the only people ready to do it.


    Now you guys understand why we don't want anything to do with Iraqi cowards and why this state is a complete fail?

    Sunni Arabs are wahabi, Shia Arabs are the slaves of Iran.

    http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/22082014

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    That happens if Western states still insist on "permission" from Baghdad, which failed to secure it's citizens for weapon delivery. As if any of those countries insisted on Gaddafi permission to arm the "rebels". Baghdad doesn't care about civilian lives. Iraqis are like this better get killed by IS than give Kurds any power. They are not able to defend themselves and block the only people ready to do it.


    Now you guys understand why we don't want anything to do with Iraqi cowards and why this state is a complete fail?

    Sunni Arabs are wahabi, Shia Arabs are the slaves of Iran.

    http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/22082014
    What beats me is why US government is so slow to admit that Shia controlled Iraq is already in Iranian influence sphere, probably bordering on being Iranian satellite ally. One explanation that comes to mind is that admitting it would show to the world that rebuilding post Saddam Iraq was a complete fiasco, a failure on US record.
    Is it a sign of hopes of US government still can't give up, to have a strong ally so close to Iran? Is it a sign of bureaucracy, always slow to adopt to quick geopolitical changes? At this point pouring any resources into sustaining Iraq in it's old form is a waste of good money and precious time.

    If it comes to foreign US politics, it fails miserable in understanding where real friends are, or missing importance in finding true friends. US picks friends based on strategic location or anyone with same foe as US. Well, it makes sense and it works on many occasions. However picking friends and caring for them based on ordinary people sentiments might get you a true friend, friend one can count on. Cherishing and building on existing sentiments can get you a friend for ever.
    For me, there is much more sense to help Kurds, shelter them and help them grow economically, than pay billions to Shia to be a friend. With Kurds you will get a friend because they want to be your friend in first place, with Shia you just help the future enemy to grow strong, because they don't want to be your friend to start with.

    The good example of big screwups was to try making a friend out of Pakistan, where for 10 billion military aid a year US got constant supply of Taliban fighters into Afghanistan and hiding Osama Bin Laden. Another one even bigger, was not finishing Saddam in first war, the Desert Storm. I haven't seen soldiers surrounding so fast as Saddam Hussein's army. Iraqis wanted to be liberated, hated Saddam, and trusted US and the West and they felt being liberated. Ordinary Iraqis sentiments were pro American back then. But instead of embracing the friendship of ordinary Iraqis, they were given back to Saddam to enjoy 10 more years of "beloved" leader. This was the treachery of worst kind, giving rise of mistrust and hatred towards the West, pro Al Qaeda sentiments. Not mentioning "brilliance" of younger Bush in all of this. It is a great example of how to alienate a friend.

    I hope that similar scenario won't repeat itself with Kurdistan this time. We are dealing with pro Western and very tolerant population, and it is a rarity in this region. Not helping them in the name of some geopolitical strategy would be a regrettable crime.

    Let's embrace friends in need.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 22-08-14 at 20:34.

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    @Yetos
    Do you remember our conversation how difficult is to define who is enemy and who is an ally sometimes?
    We have one of these extraordinary situation happening right now. Coalition against Islamic State (IS) will include Turkey, Kurds, Iran, US, Shia Iraqi, all fighting on same side against IS. Many former and present enemies in the group. Can one be a friend and enemy at the same time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    @Yetos
    Do you remember our conversation how difficult is to define who is enemy and who is an ally sometimes?
    We have one of these extraordinary situation happening right now. Coalition against Islamic State (IS) will include Turkey, Kurds, Iran, US, Shia Iraqi, all fighting on same side against IS. Many former and present enemies in the group. Can one be a friend and enemy at the same time?
    I do not know, but cooperation against foundamendal stupidity is quite a thing,
    overpass older hostilities, against modern terror is something.
    IS as turned and evolute after Syrria, is something inhuman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What beats me is why US government is so slow to admit that Shia controlled Iraq is already in Iranian influence sphere, probably bordering on being Iranian satellite ally. One explanation that comes to mind is that admitting it would show to the world that rebuilding post Saddam Iraq was a complete fiasco, a failure on US record. an
    Iraq since it's first establishment was a complete failure. The Iraqi war has changed nothing about this. Before the war hundreds of thousand peoples died and after the war hundreds of thousands die. Trying to push this mess on the Iraqi war is simplitistc and just an attempt to not accept that Iraq as one centralized state can't exist. The only thing which could "save" Iraq is a lose confederation for now
    Last edited by Alan; 23-08-14 at 00:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Iraq since it's first establishment was a complete failure. The Iraqi war has changed nothing about this. Before the war hundreds of thousand peoples died and after the war hundreds of thousands die. Trying to push this mess on the Iraqi war is simplitistc and just an attempt to not accept that Iraq as one centralized state can't exist. The only thing which could "save" Iraq is a lose confederation
    Yes, we can blame British and French empires and the way they created rather artificial states when they left area. I'm not familiar with pre colonial history of the region so I can't comment any further. I think they belonged to Otoman Empire for few hundred years before that.
    Perhaps British had romantic dream to recreate Babilonia, excited by their excavations in the region?

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