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Thread: George Washington probably belonged to haplogroup R1b-U152 (L2+)

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    Post George Washington probably belonged to haplogroup R1b-U152 (L2+)

    The first President of the United States, George Washington may well have belonged to the L2 subclade of U152. This deduction is based on the results from the Washington DNA Project.

    George Washington's ancestors hailed from Oxfordshire, and before that from Lancashire. Washington is a relatively rare surname and was originally distributed exactly in those two regions according to the 1881 survey. All project members with ancestry confirmed in those regions share the same haplotype, hinting at a common paternal ancestry.

    Cheshire and Lancashire was a region that was heavily settled by the Romans (e.g. Chester, Manchester, Lancaster), which hints that the Washington family could be patrilineally descended from ancient Romans from Italy. There is also a village called Washington in the UK, which is in the suburbs of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, another Roman stronghold.

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    Very interesting, I heard that the Wright brothers, who were E1b1b1 E-V13 were of English ancestry, but it's possible that their direct paternal ancestor was a Roman soldier from Tharce or another part of the Balkans who was stationed in what is now England and perhaps married a local, very interesting...

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Hello! Probably his ancestors were gaulish auxiliares in the roman army. In Britannia in II century AD the roman empire deployed 36.000 soldiers in the auxilia and 16.500 legionnaires which was the biggest contingent of the whole empire. Chester was founded by the romans in the I century AD with the name of Castra Devana, the city, which was one of the most important in the roman Britannia, was the headquarter of Legio XX Valeria Victrix until 380 AD. The roman army spread gaulish R1b-U152 throughout Europe but this has nothing to do with DNA of ancient romans.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    Hello! Probably his ancestors were gaulish auxiliares in the roman army. In Britannia in II century AD the roman empire deployed 36.000 soldiers in the auxilia and 16.500 legionnaires which was the biggest contingent of the whole empire. Chester was founded by the romans in the I century AD with the name of Castra Devana, the city, which was one of the most important in the roman Britannia, was the headquarter of Legio XX Valeria Victrix until 380 AD. The roman army spread gaulish R1b-U152 throughout Europe but this has nothing to do with DNA of ancient romans.
    It is impossible to differentiate between Italic/Legionaries and Gaulish/Auxiliaries in terms of the R1b-U152 spread in the Roman times; Given that Chester was home to both Leg. XX Valeria and Leg. II Adiutrix and given the fact that based on Epigraphics (Keppie 2000 / Birley 1979) the ratio was 2/3 - 4/5 Italic Legionaries during the early empire [Augustus>Claudius] and in Britannia specifically during the Flavian dynasty it was still 1/5 (almost exclusively from Gallia Transpadana); Given the strong presence of R1b-U152 in former Gallic and Italic areas the Washingtons could thus have stemmed from either; Keeping in mind that the majority of the so called provincials (Citizens/other Legionaries) were of Italic [veteran] stock as well (Southern 2006 / Campbell 1994);

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    Pretty interesting and symbolic that the first president of the USA (a country that is largely a modern incarnation of the Roman Empire, in many ways) is likely to be the direct descendant of a Roman settler in Britain.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    While it's possible GW descends from Romans in Britain, L2 was in Britain many centuries before the arrival of the Romans. Most U152>L2 in Britain is probably from of non Roman sources e.g. Bell Beaker, Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene, Belgae, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellsince1893 View Post
    While it's possible GW descends from Romans in Britain, L2 was in Britain many centuries before the arrival of the Romans. Most U152>L2 in Britain is probably from of non Roman sources e.g. Bell Beaker, Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene, Belgae, etc.
    It's true that L2 probably arrived in Britain before the Roman conquest, but not with the Bell Beakers nor the Urnfield people. The R1b that would have come to Britain during the Bell Beaker period (not Bell beaker/Megalithic people, but those who destroyed their culture) it would have been exclusively R1b-L21. The Urnfield culture never reached Britain.

    The only possibilities are Halstatt and La Tène Celts (including the Belgae), but none are known to have settled around Cheshire or Lancashire. These Celts mostly lived in south and east England (roughly from Wiltshire to East Anglia). Therefore the chances are higher that Abraham Lincoln's L2 lineage (from Norfolk) was Celtic, while G.W.'s lineage comes from an area particularly well settled by the Romans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's true that L2 probably arrived in Britain before the Roman conquest, but not with the Bell Beakers nor the Urnfield people. The R1b that would have come to Britain during the Bell Beaker period (not Bell beaker/Megalithic people, but those who destroyed their culture) it would have been exclusively R1b-L21. The Urnfield culture never reached Britain.

    The only possibilities are Halstatt and La Tène Celts (including the Belgae), but none are known to have settled around Cheshire or Lancashire. These Celts mostly lived in south and east England (roughly from Wiltshire to East Anglia). Therefore the chances are higher that Abraham Lincoln's L2 lineage (from Norfolk) was Celtic, while G.W.'s lineage comes from an area particularly well settled by the Romans.
    I was mistaken on the Urnfield but from what I've read, Beaker Culture was in Britain. I know wiki isn't the most respected source but...

    Beakers arrived in Britain around 2500 BC, declined in use around 2200-2100 BC with the emergence of food vessels and cinerary urns and finally fell out of use around 1700 BC (Needham 1996). The earliest British beakers were similar to those from the Rhine (Needham 2005), but later styles are most similar to those from Ireland (Case 1993). In Britain, domestic assemblages from this period are very rare, making it hard to draw conclusions about many aspects of society. Most British beakers come from funerary contexts..
    Also the Catuvellauni tribe are thought to be of Belgic/Gaulish origin and according to Ptolemy's Geography in the 2nd century, they occupied modern Hertforshire, Bedfordshire, Bedfordshire, and Cambridgeshire; which is just east of Oxfordshire

    As the Anglo-Saxons pushed the Britons westward in the 5th to 7th centuries AD, it's not hard to imagine their descendants would be present in Oxfordshire. Also there was a continuous flow of people from U152 heavy areas in Gaul and the Rhine Basin into Britain for many centuries prior to the Roman occupation. In addition the Roman advance north into Gaul and Belgica pushed more of these non Roman U152 types across the channel. And then there is the issue of Celtic/Belgic dna within the Roman Army itself.

    My point being, at present it's not possible to say this part of Britain or this U152>L2 person in Britain is of Roman or Celtic/Belgic descent. In the 2000 years since the Romans ruled, these Roman, Celtic, and pre-Celtic U152 descendants have moved all over England.
    Last edited by mitchellsince1893; 21-06-14 at 06:27.

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    My maternal grandfather was R1b-U152... Probably L2 and Z49+. He came from a village in Suffolk which lies within the vicinity of what once was Iceni territory.
    Z56 is the subclade which gives me the most Italic vibe, L2 doesn't really fit the bill if you ask me.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Not sure;
    But i think U152* and U152>Z192 are the most dominant in the modern areas of Italic settlement; However U152>L2 on its own (total pop.) is also very high (if not the highest) in those areas as well; Going by the Boattini 2013 data on its own U152>L2 is already 13.6% in North Italy (22/161 samples) 10.5% in Tuscany (13/123 samples) and 7.7% in Central Italy (6/77 samples); In Bavaria for example U152>L2 equals 6.4% in Rebala 2012 (14/218 samples); U152>L2 seems the most common U152 variant in former Keltic areas but has also an equal strong pressence in former Italic areas; Might all traces back to the Urnfield-complex (expansions);

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    My father's terminal SNP is 4 levels below L2 i.e. L2>Z49>Z142>Z150/Z12222>Y3140 etc. His oldest known paternal ancestor was born in England.

    At his terminal SNP he matches 1 individual from England, 1 individual from Valencia, Spain, and 2 from the Netherlands. So even at this level we still are not far enough down to get to a branch that represents a primarily English branch of L2. Based on the geographic diversity, my father' current terminal SNP might be from the Urnfield period.

    As new terminal SNPs are identified we will eventually see L2 subclades that are predominantly from a specific geographic area. For my particular branch it may be another 10 levels down from his current terminal SNP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellsince1893 View Post
    My father's terminal SNP is 4 levels below L2 i.e. L2>Z49>Z142>Z150/Z12222>Y3140 etc. His oldest known paternal ancestor was born in England.

    At his terminal SNP he matches 1 individual from England, 1 individual from Valencia, Spain, and 2 from the Netherlands. So even at this level we still are not far enough down to get to a branch that represents a primarily English branch of L2. Based on the geographic diversity, my father' current terminal SNP might be from the Urnfield period.

    As new terminal SNPs are identified we will eventually see L2 subclades that are predominantly from a specific geographic area. For my particular branch it may be another 10 levels down from his current terminal SNP.

    Where does your English ancestor come from?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's true that L2 probably arrived in Britain before the Roman conquest, but not with the Bell Beakers nor the Urnfield people. The R1b that would have come to Britain during the Bell Beaker period (not Bell beaker/Megalithic people, but those who destroyed their culture) it would have been exclusively R1b-L21. The Urnfield culture never reached Britain.

    The only possibilities are Halstatt and La Tène Celts (including the Belgae), but none are known to have settled around Cheshire or Lancashire. These Celts mostly lived in south and east England (roughly from Wiltshire to East Anglia). Therefore the chances are higher that Abraham Lincoln's L2 lineage (from Norfolk) was Celtic, while G.W.'s lineage comes from an area particularly well settled by the Romans.
    ... I think that most of R1b-L21 in England is germanic (Völkerwanderung): subclades in the continent are older than those in the British Isles. This article on the Harvard Magazine explained why ...

    "Using computer analysis, the researchers explored how such a pattern could have arisen and concluded that a massive replacement of the native fourth-century male Britons had taken place. Between 50 percent and 100 percent of indigenous English men today, the researchers estimate, are descended from Anglo-Saxons who arrived on England’s eastern coast 16 centuries ago"
    This is where the idea of an apartheid-like social structure comes in. He has advanced a theory that a sexually biased, ethnically driven reproductive pattern, in which Anglo-Saxon males fathered children with Anglo-Saxon females and possibly Celtic females, while the reproductive activities of Romano-Celtic males were more restricted, is the most plausible explanation for the demographic, archaeological, and genetic patterns seen today.
    (harvardmagazine.com/2009/07/who-killed-the-men-england by Jonathan Shaw July-August 2009)

    The same thing happened with the Lombards in Italy, the Lombard law "Edictum Rothari" estabilished a sort of sexual segregation of the Gallo-Roman population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    ... I think that most of R1b-L21 in England is germanic (Völkerwanderung): subclades in the continent are older than those in the British Isles. This article on the Harvard Magazine explained why ...





    (harvardmagazine.com/2009/07/who-killed-the-men-england by Jonathan Shaw July-August 2009)

    The same thing happened with the Lombards in Italy, the Lombard law "Edictum Rothari" estabilished a sort of sexual segregation of the Gallo-Roman population.
    That's not a very convincing theory, to say the least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Where does your English ancestor come from?
    My great grandfather was born illegitimately in London in 1893. His father is unknown...a mystery I've been trying to solve for the last 30 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    ... I think that most of R1b-L21 in England is germanic (Völkerwanderung): subclades in the continent are older than those in the British Isles. This article on the Harvard Magazine explained why ...

    (harvardmagazine.com/2009/07/who-killed-the-men-england by Jonathan Shaw July-August 2009)

    The same thing happened with the Lombards in Italy, the Lombard law "Edictum Rothari" estabilished a sort of sexual segregation of the Gallo-Roman population.
    The prohibition laws of marriage in Rothari (7th century AD) were succesively diminished within the following 100 years most notably by Liutprand (early 8th century AD) in the Liutprandi leges [c.127] it is clearly stated that a marriage between a Roman male and a Langobarden female will also included the Mundium (Munt) and the kids from these unions will than follow the laws of the father (i.e. Roman codes) same goes vice versa [c.153] with a Langobarden male and a Roman female; In 740s AD already the king himself (Ratchis) was married with kids to a Roman woman (Tasia); Similar changes and gradual adaptions happened in all Germanic successor kingdoms; Keeping in mind that migrating Germanic societies of the Völkerwanderung were consisting of a host of remnant Germanic, Sarmatian and Provincial folks (PD II/XXVI) thus forging under a common law first before adapting to the Romans;

    in German (Jan C. L. König) -
    http://www.langobarden.de/Aufsatze/E...ngobarden.html
    the changing of the laws -
    http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb06/mag/i...otokoll272.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    ... I think that most of R1b-L21 in England is germanic (Völkerwanderung): subclades in the continent are older than those in the British Isles. This article on the Harvard Magazine explained why ...

    (harvardmagazine.com/2009/07/who-killed-the-men-england by Jonathan Shaw July-August 2009)
    quite informative, I laughed at this passage:
    “In the Roman excavations,” says McCormick, “there were pots and stone buildings and columns.” But then suddenly you get a layer of nothing but dark, humus-looking soil. What actually happened, Galinié and others have found, is that people shifted to organic building materials. “They had thatched roofs and wooden houses, they didn’t have Roman garbage removal, and they just dumped the ashes and charcoal from their hearths out in the road and all of that compacted.

    sounds like early Anglo-saxons could not digest civilization well. Seems like the Celts were quite Romanized (Hellenized).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    ... I think that most of R1b-L21 in England is germanic (Völkerwanderung): subclades in the continent are older than those in the British Isles. This article on the Harvard Magazine explained why ...
    How could continental L21 not be older than those in the British Isles ? L21 obviously came from the continent during the early Bronze Age. Have you not read at all the R1b history on this site ?

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    R1b in Italy: L21/U106 are both Germanic (Ostrogothic/Longobardic/Norman); U152 is Celtic Cisalpine-Gaulish, Ancient Romans were not Celtic: they were not red-haired which they considered a typical barbaric trait (Tacitus); Ancient Romans probably carried L23 (h35): Cassio Dione in his "Historia Romana" wrote that Trajan before leaving for his first campaign against the Dacians said "Now I will return to the land of my ancestors". This intriguing story is also carved in the "Colonna Traiana" in Rome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    R1b in Italy: L21/U106 are both Germanic (Ostrogothic/Longobardic/Norman); U152 is Celtic Cisalpine-Gaulish, Ancient Romans were not Celtic: they were not red-haired which they considered a typical barbaric trait (Tacitus); Ancient Romans probably carried L23 (h35): Cassio Dione in his "Historia Romana" wrote that Trajan before leaving for his first campaign against the Dacians said "Now I will return to the land of my ancestors". This intriguing story is also carved in the "Colonna Traiana" in Rome.
    U106 as Ostrogothic or Norman is a stretch..........though longobardic and burgundian is more accurate.

    Where does L2 fit in and its rampant in cisalpine gaul and other alpine areas ?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bighipert View Post
    R1b in Italy: L21/U106 are both Germanic (Ostrogothic/Longobardic/Norman); U152 is Celtic Cisalpine-Gaulish, Ancient Romans were not Celtic: they were not red-haired which they considered a typical barbaric trait (Tacitus); Ancient Romans probably carried L23 (h35): Cassio Dione in his "Historia Romana" wrote that Trajan before leaving for his first campaign against the Dacians said "Now I will return to the land of my ancestors". This intriguing story is also carved in the "Colonna Traiana" in Rome.
    Ancient Romans (Italic tribes) were Indo-Europeans of the Urnfield complex (just like the Kelts) and in terms of linguistics both Keltic and Italic share the most similarities within the Indo-European branches; Cisalpine Gaul was mostly Umbrian (Italic/Insubres/Lepontic) and Ligurian with the east being Venetic/Illyrian only the Gaulish Cenomani and the Keltic Carni remained as Kelts in the Transpadana while the Gaulish/Keltic Boii and Senones in the Cispadana were exterminated or dislodged and thence mostly Roman colonies with Roman citizenship after the Social-war in 88BC Lex Pompeia; Given the high frequencies of R1b-U152 in former Keltic, Italic as well as in minority in former Lausitz areas it should be considered a lineage via the Urnfield Indo-European complex or broader Indo-European given the Doric/Hellenic occurrance as well; Trajan was of Italic stock (gens Ulpii) and from the Italic veterans colonie of ITALICA in Baetica; There are many archaeological links to certain Terremare and Urnfield practices of Golasecca/Este/proto-Villanova and the Carpathian areas;

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Ancient Romans (Italic tribes) were Indo-Europeans of the Urnfield complex (just like the Kelts) and in terms of linguistics both Keltic and Italic share the most similarities within the Indo-European branches; Cisalpine Gaul was mostly Umbrian (Italic/Insubres/Lepontic) and Ligurian with the east being Venetic/Illyrian only the Gaulish Cenomani and the Keltic Carni remained as Kelts in the Transpadana while the Gaulish/Keltic Boii and Senones in the Cispadana were exterminated or dislodged and thence mostly Roman colonies with Roman citizenship after the Social-war in 88BC Lex Pompeia; Given the high frequencies of R1b-U152 in former Keltic, Italic as well as in minority in former Lausitz areas it should be considered a lineage via the Urnfield Indo-European complex or broader Indo-European given the Doric/Hellenic occurrance as well; Trajan was of Italic stock (gens Ulpii) and from the Italic veterans colonie of ITALICA in Baetica; There are many archaeological links to certain Terremare and Urnfield practices of Golasecca/Este/proto-Villanova and the Carpathian areas;
    Italic tribes and Latins (Latini) were both Indo-Europeans but they were not the same people (Eneide, Virgilio). Latins settled in Italy later only in the II millenium b.c. probably from the Carpatho-Danubian area. The most important archeological evidence of this was the changing in funeral practices in the area of the Colli Albani (Lazio), Latins used cremation instead of inhumation. The spread of U152 is very dishomogeneous in Italy with a very high difference from north to south of the peninsula: 51,3% in Brescia (Lombardy), 1,9% in Catania (Sicily); L2 is 25% in La Spezia Massa (Tuscany) but very low in the South, 0% in Catania, Oristano, Matera. (Boattini et al., 2013)

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    Interesting my direct ancestor William Blackledge also happened to be R1B-152 from Lancashire. Are you saying that the Italic-Gauls never made it to Lancashire? If it's due to Romans than I guess that explains the 4.5% Thracian DNA that I apparently posses

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    [QUOTE=Twilight;441410]Interesting my direct ancestor William Blackledge(1670-1718) also happened to be R1B-152 from Lancashire. Are you saying that the Italic-Gauls never made it to Lancashire? If it's due to Romans than I guess that explains a lot of the weird African and Eastern Balkan noise./QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellsince1893 View Post
    My father's terminal SNP is 4 levels below L2 i.e. L2>Z49>Z142>Z150/Z12222>Y3140 etc. His oldest known paternal ancestor was born in England.

    At his terminal SNP he matches 1 individual from England, 1 individual from Valencia, Spain, and 2 from the Netherlands. So even at this level we still are not far enough down to get to a branch that represents a primarily English branch of L2. Based on the geographic diversity, my father' current terminal SNP might be from the Urnfield period.

    As new terminal SNPs are identified we will eventually see L2 subclades that are predominantly from a specific geographic area. For my particular branch it may be another 10 levels down from his current terminal SNP.
    Hi Mark,

    Since you and I match at all these SNPs: L2>Z49>Z142>Z150/Z12222 so far and maybe another that I am testing for I am guessing we will find our ancestors came from Norfolk, England and before that, France.

    I just hope I don't have to buy 10 more SNP tests!

    Curtis

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