With which Y DNA was the proto caucausoid/mongoloid?

@Kristiina
How have the remains of LaBrana, and particularly Loschbour man, been classified?
 
Well, I've been looking on the internet and the find near Afantova Gora that does show dental features that seem related to Asians is the Listvenka child, a child's mandible found nearby. It would be very interesting to see either the dating or DNA extracted from it. In this find the permanent molars, which if I understand correctly are crucial to determine sinodonty, had not yet erupted. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if this means that one can't or can determine sinodonty, though.


http://tinyurl.com/k6y2pp3
 
epoch said:
Well, I've been looking on the internet and the find near Afantova Gora that does show dental features that seem related to Asians is the Listvenka child, a child's mandible found nearby. It would be very interesting to see either the dating or DNA extracted from it. In this find the permanent molars, which if I understand correctly are crucial to determine sinodonty, had not yet erupted. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if this means that one can't or can determine sinodonty, though.
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The passage behind the link goes “Listvenka is one of the very few Pleistocene Siberian sites where human remains have been found. In this case the find was a fragment of a child’s lower jaw. The unerupted lower first permanent molars had features more commonly found in Northeast Asian Sinodonts, and less frequently in Eurodonts.”
Then there is a nice photo with a text:
“The Listvenka child’s permanent lower first molars, mesial surface at the top. These pristine unerupted teeth exhibit two morphological traits commonly found in Modern Asian populations, but rarely in European populations. They are (1) the deflecting wrinkle, and (2) the occurrence of cusp 6. Two other but less diagnostic traits that favour an Asian affiliation are (3) the protostylid pit, and (4) the absence of cusp 7. Hence, the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.”
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.
 
matbir said:
4. Mongoloid? - Ket people: Russian video
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One of the most interesting things in this video, of which I did not understand a word, was the dolls they wrap in cloth. I know from several sources that these are regarded as deities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people

Of great importance to Kets are dolls, described as "an animal shoulder bone wrapped in a scrap of cloth simulating clothing." [20] One adult Ket, who had been careless with a cigarette, said, "It's a shame I don't have my doll. My house burnt down together with my dolls."[21] Kets regard their dolls as household deities, which sleep in daytime and protect them at night.[22]
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If we were to regard Siberians as a mixture of the most Eastern part of ice age West-Eurasians and Mongolids it could very well be that the dolls found at the Mal'ta site actually are similar to these.

It is an utter wild guess but hey... this is a forum.

http://donsmaps.com/malta.html
 
Kristiina said:
The passage behind the link goes “Listvenka is one of the very few Pleistocene Siberian sites where human remains have been found. In this case the find was a fragment of a child’s lower jaw. The unerupted lower first permanent molars had features more commonly found in Northeast Asian Sinodonts, and less frequently in Eurodonts.”
Then there is a nice photo with a text:
“The Listvenka child’s permanent lower first molars, mesial surface at the top. These pristine unerupted teeth exhibit two morphological traits commonly found in Modern Asian populations, but rarely in European populations. They are (1) the deflecting wrinkle, and (2) the occurrence of cusp 6. Two other but less diagnostic traits that favour an Asian affiliation are (3) the protostylid pit, and (4) the absence of cusp 7. Hence, the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.”
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.
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Kristiina, the Mal'ta boy showed *European-like* teeth. Nowadays the original population of the area clearly is mongolid. Admixture runs confirm this; it clearly shows an east-Asian component in (almost?) all mongolid populations. So, somewhere in between Mal'ta (24.000 year ago) and now the population should become more Asian. I would be perfectly fine if someone would prove to me that Afantova was mongolid. The American Indians clearly are at least partly mongolid and the majority theory states that around 14.000 years ago these crossed the Bering straight. That means the mixture between the two should have happened at least before that date. Since Afontova is dated 17.000 years old I would not at all be surprised if it actually showed some mongolid features.

On the other hand, Afontova is quite a western part of the east, so Afontova might have been still "pure" ANE.

I just want to point out that calling Afontova mongolid is simply not possible. The DNA is too contaminated, the find is not decisive enough. However, Mal'ta boy is a better source. His teeth are European - A fact that I derived from your article - and he shows none of the admixture that all of the mongolid people seem to share.

If Mal'ta boy was an mongolid the DNA extraction wouldn't be such a spectacular find. It is the very fact that he is clearly non-mongolid but still shows very clearly that he is part of the ancestral population of the American-Indians which made this find such a stunning one.
 
Kristiina said:
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.
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where did you read Mal'ta boy was definitey mongoloid? Im interested?
 
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.
 
Aberdeen said:
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.
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The Mal'ta boy was just a toddler so it will probably be hard to tell if his skull shape was more mongoloid or Caucasoid. The Caucasoid and Mongoloid skull shapes certainly existed before the LGM, evidence if native Americans-east Asians, northeast Europeans(~70% hunter gatherer)-south Asians-west Asians, because they have distant ancestry that mostly traces to the same source in the Upper Palaeolithic. I am pretty sure Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic Europeans(15,000 year old cave carvings) had the basic Caucasiod skull shape. Maybe ANE people split so early from WHG-west Asian brothers that they did not share the same Caucasoid skull shape, which can explain why native Americans don't have many signs of Caucasoid features. Why would this Icelandic singer Bjork have a totally different genetic makeup than the average Icelander? That is simply impossible, especially considering how recently Icelanders ancestors arrived in Iceland. You're theory that her type was norm in Europe before the Neolithic(you're assuming common features have a more recent origin than rare features) is pure speculation and honestly impossible. If your idea was true we would already know because there are plenty of old Neolithic skeletons the experts study. If it was true why did the Caucasoid type become dominate in Balts(~70% hunter, ~30% farmer) and Sardinians(~70% farmer, ~30% hunter) who share only very distant Mesolithic and Neolithic ancestry and have opposite percentages of farmer and hunter ancestry.
 
Kristiina said:
Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.
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Aberdeen said:
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.
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The 40.000 year old Tianyuan man clearly came from a population that was ancestral to "many present-day Asians and Native Americans but postdated the divergence of Asians from European".

http://www.mpg.de/6842535/dna-Tianyuan-cave
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/01/ancient-dna-from-tianyuan-cave.html

Revisions in mutation rate have suggested that suggested dates for important moments in human history such as the splits between major populations should be set back:

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/09/a-slower-mutation-rate-has-implications.html

More at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/05/msmc-preprint-schiffels-and-durbin.html

This is the most intriguing part of this preprint as it suggests that European/East Asian genetic differentiation may not only be due to the their post-UP divergence, but also to older strands of ancestry. Such deep differentiation may be related to the ~100kya settlement of the Near East (but not East Asia) by anatomically modern humans and the recent evidence for a deep "Basal Eurasian" lineage in Europeans but not East Asians.
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EDIT: I should add that I also found a blog post by Robert Frost doubting the dating of Tianyuan:

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/when-was-split.html

Maju shows that conclusions about the affinity of Tianyuan aren't all that straight forward as may be concluded from above quotes.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.nl/2013/01/tianyuan-mtdna-b-and-formation-of-far.html
 
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As I said, I was deliberately provocative. In reality, I do not suggest that Malta boy looked like Northern or Southern Chinese, but he surely didn’t look like a modern Eastern European either. Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta. If we would like to imagine what he looked like, we should google for these people. However, I am sure that they have recently mixed with people from Eastern Europe, so I do not believe that, for example, blondism is old in Siberia.

Please look at the K16 results of the Malta boy (Eurogenes Another look at the Lazaridis et al. ancient genomes preprint, January 8, 2014)
Cream colour (ANE?) c. 37%
Blue (European) c. 23%
Dark green (Northern Amerind) c. 10%
Brown (Chippewyan Amerind) c. 10%
Light blue (Onge) c. 10%
Light green (ASI) c. 7%
Blue green (Karitiana) c. 3%
I wonder if that 17% ASI and Onge ancestry represents Malta boy’s yDNA R’s trail from Southeast Asia to Siberia through India. Alekseev’s Negroid elements could be quite conveniently linked with ASI and Onge components, although the skeletons that Alekseev analyzed were Neolithic. On the other hand, the fact that the Malta boy had European style teeth could indicate a mixture with people from Europe. His Amerind ancestry is considerable, but it is mainly northern Amerind ancestry. I wonder if this is an indication that there were several migrations to America and Malta boy’s population is related, in particular, to a northern migration.

According to Dodecad V3 run, I score 1.22% Southeast Asian, 1.24% South Asian and 5.65% Northeast Asian and my Eurogenes ANE percentage is 18.8%. So, my Western Siberian ancestry might be in 12% range.

Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).
 
More at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:

LINK [/QUOTE]

Well, then also Indians diverged from West Eurasians in Africa, and, since we know now that yDNA P originates in Southeast Asia, his clan must belong to that East Asian group! :)
 
Kristiina said:
Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).
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Kristiina, provide links and state what you want to say with them.
 
epoch said:
I would like to add the following question: Evidence to what exactly?
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... that the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.
 
Salbrox said:
Eskimos are closer to Malta than all of those people.
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True, I found the following list in Maju's comment on Eurogenes blog (March 8, 2014):

PS- Also in fig. SI 21 (shared drift with Ma1), the sorted scores after NAs [Native Americans] are:

1. Naukan (East Siberian)
2. Ket (West Siberian)
3. Lithuanians
4. LSFIN
5. Russians
6. Estonians
7. Mordovians
8. Chutki (East Siberian)
9. FIN
10. Khanty (West Siberian)
11. Maris
12. Selkup (West Siberian/NE European)
13. Koryak (East Siberian)
14. Shors (Altai)
15. Orcadians
16. Ukrainians
17. Tundra Nentai
18. CEU
19. Hungarians
20. Kalash

Wow, I am a LSFIN and I am on the 4th post in affinity with Ma1! :)
 
Kristiina said:
As I said, I was deliberately provocative. In reality, I do not suggest that Malta boy looked like Northern or Southern Chinese, but he surely didn’t look like a modern Eastern European either. Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta. If we would like to imagine what he looked like, we should google for these people. However, I am sure that they have recently mixed with people from Eastern Europe, so I do not believe that, for example, blondism is old in Siberia.

Please look at the K16 results of the Malta boy (Eurogenes Another look at the Lazaridis et al. ancient genomes preprint, January 8, 2014)
Cream colour (ANE?) c. 37%
Blue (European) c. 23%
Dark green (Northern Amerind) c. 10%
Brown (Chippewyan Amerind) c. 10%
Light blue (Onge) c. 10%
Light green (ASI) c. 7%
Blue green (Karitiana) c. 3%
I wonder if that 17% ASI and Onge ancestry represents Malta boy’s yDNA R’s trail from Southeast Asia to Siberia through India. Alekseev’s Negroid elements could be quite conveniently linked with ASI and Onge components, although the skeletons that Alekseev analyzed were Neolithic. On the other hand, the fact that the Malta boy had European style teeth could indicate a mixture with people from Europe. His Amerind ancestry is considerable, but it is mainly northern Amerind ancestry. I wonder if this is an indication that there were several migrations to America and Malta boy’s population is related, in particular, to a northern migration.

According to Dodecad V3 run, I score 1.22% Southeast Asian, 1.24% South Asian and 5.65% Northeast Asian and my Eurogenes ANE percentage is 18.8%. So, my Western Siberian ancestry might be in 12% range.

Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).
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I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories. As such, one might expect him to have a mixture of "European" and "Asian" features. And, while I think that one shouldn't be too rigid about the classification of the facial features of a young child, I believe he was described as supposedly have a mixture of European and Mongolian body and skull structure. I think that in order to get an idea of what Mal'ta Boy and others in his family may have looked like, it's helpful to look at various tribal groups in modern day Siberia and Amerindian people in the Americas. Of course, many Amerindian people in the Americas are actually racially mixed. But even among those who are not, there are a variety of facial features, with some having facial features that we might see as "Oriental", especially in South and Central America, and others having more "European" features, especially in North America. But others don't really fit into either category and I think that was probably what Mal'ta Boy and his clan looked like - not really "Oriental" or "European". And I think we tend to try to classify Amerindian people as looking either "Oriental" or "European" because those are the categories we think of, but such labeling is often not really accurate. Similarly, there are still a few Europeans who have facial features that we might describe as being "Asian" simply because we don't have a descriptor such as "Paleolithic features".
 
Aberdeen said:
I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories.
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I am aware that it is also true that way, but if that is the only possible direction of gene flow, then we should conclude that there has been an important gene flow from Siberia to ASI and Onge which I do not find plausible.
 
Kristiina said:
I am aware that it is also true that way, but if that is the only possible direction of gene flow, then we should conclude that there has been an important gene flow from Siberia to ASI and Onge which I do not find plausible.
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Okay, I'll concede that Mal'ta Boy's clan wasn't necessarily directly ancestral to all those groups, but their ancestors were. They would not have been descended from ANE or European groups that didn't yet exist. We don't yet know all the details of how people whose ancestors first left Africa ended up in Siberia, but we do know that they proceeded certain categories of people who only developed later as a result of various admixtures. And while there probably were differences in anatomy and facial structure among the folks who first left Africa, they probably wouldn't have fit into modern categories such as "Oriental" or "European". IMO, it's a mistake to try to extrapolate into the past on the basis of the present with respect to things like racial categories.
 
Kristiina said:
More at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:

LINK

Well, then also Indians diverged from West Eurasians in Africa, and, since we know now that yDNA P originates in Southeast Asia, his clan must belong to that East Asian group! :)
Click to expand...
@Dienekes
I think it is so much easier to assume that divergence of out of Africa humans started when they mixed with local hominids (Homo Erectus). There was Neanderthal, Denisovan and definitely more to come, especially the one missing with typical mongoloid traits.
 
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