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Thread: With which Y DNA was the proto caucausoid/mongoloid?

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    With which Y DNA was the proto caucausoid/mongoloid?

    I think it would be interesting to have a discussion on the Y DNA relationship with the 4 modern races of humans (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid).

    From what I have been reading here is my basic understanding.

    Haplogroup A and B I wouldn't say technically are Negroid but represent an even earlier divergence, Haplogroup A being bushmen, B being pygmies.

    Haplogroup C's migration out of Africa represents an Australoid type human (Australian Aboriginie).

    Haplogroups E & D represent the Negroid race.

    Haplogroup F represents the Proto Caucasoid/Mongoloid migration out of Africa.

    The Caucausoid/Mongoloid split happens with the IJ/K split, K migrating to Asia and becoming Mongoloid, IJ remaining in the Fertile Crescent becoming Caucausoid. Haplogroup G & H also Caucasoid.

    Descendants of K (R1a,R1b, a few Q, a few N), and some E clades migrate back into Caucasoid areas and become Caucasoid over time from mixing.

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    There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

    Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

    Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.
    There are definitely different races of humans, they teach this in Anthropology and Indigenous studies classes at Canadian Universities , I know because I have taken one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post

    Judging by this map Hg E has to be split into Hamitic (East African) and Congoid (Negroid/West African) with Hg A and Hg B being most def. also Negroid; And judging by the studies not certain that original Hg I qualifies for being Caucasoid based on that Anthropology and Pigmentation; If such links even exist (and i dont think so);

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I think it would be interesting to have a discussion on the Y DNA relationship with the 4 modern races of humans (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid).

    From what I have been reading here is my basic understanding.

    Haplogroup A and B I wouldn't say technically are Negroid but represent an even earlier divergence, Haplogroup A being bushmen, B being pygmies.

    Haplogroup C's migration out of Africa represents an Australoid type human (Australian Aboriginie).

    Haplogroups E & D represent the Negroid race.

    Haplogroup F represents the Proto Caucasoid/Mongoloid migration out of Africa.

    The Caucausoid/Mongoloid split happens with the IJ/K split, K migrating to Asia and becoming Mongoloid, IJ remaining in the Fertile Crescent becoming Caucausoid. Haplogroup G & H also Caucasoid.

    Descendants of K (R1a,R1b, a few Q, a few N), and some E clades migrate back into Caucasoid areas and become Caucasoid over time from mixing.
    You are assuming there are simply 4 pure branches of humanity, when it is probably much more complicated. You should first research the history of the haplogroups and then try to connect them to large general groups known through autosomal DNA like African, Eurasian, east Eurasian, west Eurasian. You'll confuse yourself if you try to fit haplogroups into large human classifications which we don't know if they exist and if they do what their origin is. Even though all of Y DNA K's clades are pretty much exclusive to non-west Eurasian people, one of its descendants Y DNA P probably originated in early west Eurasians. This is because Y DNA K originated when the autosomal split between west and east Eurasians had no occurred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

    Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.
    There are differnt general groups, and you can call them whatever you would like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    You are assuming there are simply 4 pure branches of humanity, when it is probably much more complicated. You should first research the history of the haplogroups and then try to connect them to large general groups known through autosomal DNA like African, Eurasian, east Eurasian, west Eurasian. You'll confuse yourself if you try to fit haplogroups into large human classifications which we don't know if they exist and if they do what their origin is. Even though all of Y DNA K's clades are pretty much exclusive to non-west Eurasian people, one of its descendants Y DNA P probably originated in early west Eurasians. This is because Y DNA K originated when the autosomal split between west and east Eurasians had no occurred.
    I think Haplogroup P would have looked like Haplogroup Q and very Mongoloid, same with Haplogroup R. I think it probably changed autosomally during its migration back towards Europe. There is no way that every single other subclade of K was Mongoloid but not R. You R1a/b friends have Chinese grandpas

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    You R1a/b friends have Chinese grandpas
    Chinese and IndoEuropean are just language groups that are later constructs just as Semites. There were no Chinese 10,000 years ago nor IndoEuropeans nor Semites just hunter-gatherers. The Bible said bad things about "Hamitic" people based on false human history. What do you know turns out that many Jews (also a construct which came only four thousand years ago) are of Haplogroup E (African) so are they Hamitic? Hittites (Haplogroup R1b) according to the Bible are Hamitic. All this classification are later constructs based on appearance. Economics, Anthropology, psychology are 'soft sciences' and cause the most problems for society with socially destructive and bad concepts.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

    Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.
    That is a load of poppycock. Even if it was merely "diet and environment affecting appearances and bone structure" then still it would be biologically correct to talk about races.
    Last edited by epoch; 22-06-14 at 20:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I think Haplogroup P would have looked like Haplogroup Q and very Mongoloid, same with Haplogroup R. I think it probably changed autosomally during its migration back towards Europe. There is no way that every single other subclade of K was Mongoloid but not R. You R1a/b friends have Chinese grandpas
    Y DNA P has been found in two Upper Palaeolithic Siberians who were west Eurasian(ANE) and every modern populations with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian ancestry(specifically ANE) and most have no signs of east Asian ancestry,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Y DNA P has been found in two Upper Palaeolithic Siberians who were west Eurasian(ANE) and every modern populations with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian ancestry(specifically ANE) and most have no signs of east Asian ancestry,
    So somehow Men with Y Haplogroups O, N , and P(Q) all evolved into the same Mongoloid race independently and somehow P(R) did not? Impossible.

    The most reasonable scenario is that the R1 subclades (or proto R1) originated as Mongoloid and bred with Caucasoid women in Central Asia, Near East, and Europe as they migrated there diluting their own original genetic makeup until they became a hyrbrid majority Caucasoid. The pure Caucasoid form has a Dolichocephalic(Long) headshape and the pure Mongoloid has a brachycephalic(Wide) headshape, in central Europe we see a Mesocephalic headshape(Mixture between the two) and Dolicephalic prevaling in the more remote regions (North Sea/Scandinavia), this fits the introduction and dilution of a Bracephalic genepool from East Asia. Neolithic farmers and indigenous europeans could not explain the Mesocephalic headshape in central europe as both groups would have been homogenous Caucasoid/Dolicephalic.

    The interesting part of the puzzle now I think is pigmentation, we know that the indigenous hunter gatherers were Dark Skinned but had the blue eye trait, Neolithic Farmers had the Light Skin Allele but can't explain red/blonde hair.

    Seems like Modern Europeans are the result of mixing :
    Mongoloid R1a/b carrying the MC1R mutation for red hair and possibly blonde hair with Light Skinned Caucasoid farmers in the Near East, then further mixing of these people with more Dark Skinned Caucasoid HGs in Europe. This fits the theory of light skin evolving in tandem with origin of farming. Somewhere in there we have the first Neolithic farmers spreading their light skin genes into the dark skinned HGs of Europe with the LBK, but this probably didn't have the same impact the Indo-Europeans did on the genepool who probably brought much more light skin and mixed much more.

    To label them with haplogroups:

    R1a/R1b mix with Neadertals in Siberia picking up traits for red/blonde hair (MC1R) which exist unexpressed.
    R1a/R1b men mix with mtDNA H women in the Near east picking up the light skin gene (SLC24A5).

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    So somehow Men with Y Haplogroups O, N , and P(Q) all evolved into the same Mongoloid race independently and somehow P(R) did not? Impossible.
    You are making this more simple than it really is. We don't really know what Caucasoid and Mongoloid are yet, they are probably multiple things(we know all modern west Eurasians have none west Eurasian ancestry from 'basal Eurasians"). The common ancestor of NO and P probably existed before the west and east Eurasian split. We know that through ancient DNA that 45,000 years ago in western Siberia there were people who were equally related to east and west Eurasians. So even if the common ancestor of NO and P gave rise to east Asians, one branch(P) could have mixed with people who did not give rise to east Asians and the carriers of P could have become western autosomally, like early carries of mtDNA U and Y DNA IJ.

    24,000 years old Siberian MA-1 had Y DNA R, mtDNA U, and was a pure west Eurasian with no evidence at all of east Asian ancestry. 17,000YBP Siberian AG2 had Y DNA P, mtDNA R*, was probably a pure west Eurasians and had no signs of east Asian ancestry. Siberians and Native Americans have high amounts of Y DNA Q but they also have some west Eurasian ancestry(around 20% for many Siberians and 40% for native Americans), specifically from MA-1's people, while there are plenty of west Eurasian people like Polish and Irish with high amounts of Y DNA P but no signs of east Asian ancestry. Y DNA Q probably did not originate in Siberia or a people with mainly east Asian ancestry, it is a terrible assumption that it's a "mongoloid" haplogroup.

    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    The most reasonable scenario is that the R1 subclades (or proto R1) originated as Mongoloid and bred with Caucasoid women in Central Asia, Near East, and Europe as they migrated there diluting their own original genetic makeup until they became a hyrbrid majority Caucasoid. The pure Caucasoid form has a Dolichocephalic(Long) headshape and the pure Mongoloid has a brachycephalic(Wide) headshape, in central Europe we see a Mesocephalic headshape(Mixture between the two) and Dolicephalic prevaling in the more remote regions (North Sea/Scandinavia), this fits the introduction and dilution of a Bracephalic genepool from East Asia. Neolithic farmers and indigenous europeans could not explain the Mesocephalic headshape in central europe as both groups would have been homogenous Caucasoid/Dolicephalic.
    I don't know enough about the subject to say anything but I do know there is no evidence on Y DNA, mtDNA, or autosomal DNA of widepsread east Asian ancestry in Europe.

    The interesting part of the puzzle now I think is pigmentation, we know that the indigenous hunter gatherers were Dark Skinned but had the blue eye trait, Neolithic Farmers had the Light Skin Allele but can't explain red/blonde hair.

    Seems like Modern Europeans are the result of mixing :
    Mongoloid R1a/b carrying the MC1R mutation for red hair and possibly blonde hair with Light Skinned Caucasoid farmers in the Near East, then further mixing of these people with more Dark Skinned Caucasoid HGs in Europe. This fits the theory of light skin evolving in tandem with origin of farming. Somewhere in there we have the first Neolithic farmers spreading their light skin genes into the dark skinned HGs of Europe with the LBK, but this probably didn't have the same impact the Indo-Europeans did on the genepool who probably brought much more light skin and mixed much more.

    To label them with haplogroups:

    R1a/R1b mix with Neadertals in Siberia picking up traits for red/blonde hair (MC1R) which exist unexpressed.
    R1a/R1b men mix with mtDNA H women in the Near east picking up the light skin gene (SLC24A5).[/QUOTE]

    It is a big stretch to have such a strong opinion on this pigmentation connection when you're not an educated expert. How do you explain Finnish being the most blonde people in Europe and having low amounts of Y DNA R1? Y DNA R1a and R1b became widespread and popular in Europe in the last 5,000 years, and you're forgetting about west Asians who also have a high amount(plus R1b probably originated in west Asia some 20,000 years ago).

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    load of poppycock
    Cameroons are they negroid? They have haplogroup R1b. They look negroid. Race is just a intermediate state. It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    So somehow Men with Y Haplogroups O, N , and P(Q) all evolved into the same Mongoloid race independently and somehow P(R) did not? Impossible.

    The most reasonable scenario is that the R1 subclades (or proto R1) originated as Mongoloid and bred with Caucasoid women in Central Asia, Near East, and Europe as they migrated there diluting their own original genetic makeup until they became a hyrbrid majority Caucasoid. The pure Caucasoid form has a Dolichocephalic(Long) headshape and the pure Mongoloid has a brachycephalic(Wide) headshape, in central Europe we see a Mesocephalic headshape(Mixture between the two) and Dolicephalic prevaling in the more remote regions (North Sea/Scandinavia), this fits the introduction and dilution of a Bracephalic genepool from East Asia. Neolithic farmers and indigenous europeans could not explain the Mesocephalic headshape in central europe as both groups would have been homogenous Caucasoid/Dolicephalic.

    R1a/R1b mix with Neadertals in Siberia picking up traits for red/blonde hair (MC1R) which exist unexpressed.
    R1a/R1b men mix with mtDNA H women in the Near east picking up the light skin gene (SLC24A5).
    Did'nt you read the latest paper !!............N and O split ( T and L also split ) from K before P was formed.
    P was formed in South-east Asia

    question is ...was R formed from P in South -east Asia or did R form once P back tracked to india, Persia or afghanistan .

    N and O could already have departed northwards before P returned ( if that's the scenario )
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    Cameroons are they negroid? They have haplogroup R1b. They look negroid. Race is just a intermediate state. It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.
    R1b is a Y DNA haplogroup so just a paternal lineage. Cameroon's have a high amount of R1b is because of a founder effect(same for west Europeans, ~50% trace back to one super grandfather who lived around 5,000 years ago). There is a similar situation in the Finno-Urgics of northeastern Europe, the vast majority of them have an east Asian paternal lineage but almost all of their ancestry is west Eurasian. You could have a population who is 99.9% Han Chinese but 100% of the them have an Irish paternal lineage, because of a founder effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    Race is just a intermediate state. It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.
    The common ancestors of all humans alive today did not suddenly stop stop evolving and developing distinct genetic markers. If you ignore the differences between human populations you are driven by fear not logic.

    There is no official definition of the word race. Different physical appearances is a result of differnt ancestry. You can call human populations with differnt ancestry differnt races or whatever you want, but there is differnt ancestry and therefore according to some definitions of the word race you can say there is a such thing as race. Physical appearance is a good way to discover differnt ancestry but of course DNA is much better. Even back in the 1800's many knew that there was a such thing as Caucasoid/west Eurasian and Mongoloid/east Asian(proving studying physical appearance can be useful), which we know through DNA is correct but probably has a complicated origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Y DNA P has been found in two Upper Palaeolithic Siberians who were west Eurasian(ANE) and every modern populations with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian ancestry(specifically ANE) and most have no signs of east Asian ancestry,
    That East-Asian component that is missing in Mal’ta boy must belong to people who stayed south of North China during the Ice Age. These people started to expand to the north only when the climate got warmer and more hospitable in the northern areas. We must remember that Mal’ta boy who carried yDNA R and Afontova Gora man who probably carried yDNA Q seem not have been Caucasoids in the usual sense of the word, as Pavel M. Dolukhanov in his article ”Archaeology and Languages in Prehistoric Northern Eurasia” refers to Debetz (1946) who identified the remains of “nothern Asian Mongoloids” at the site of Afontova Gora 2; they included a fragment of the frontal bone. Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta; and to Alexeev (1998, 323) who in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was “inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance.” Moreover, we all know that Native Americans belong to the Mongoloid race and they inhabited Northeast Asia at a very early date. I think that it is obvious that Mongoloid features are autochtonous to Siberia and not only a result of post-Ice Age mixing with people from China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    That East-Asian component that is missing in Mal’ta boy must belong to people who stayed south of North China during the Ice Age. These people started to expand to the north only when the climate got warmer and more hospitable in the northern areas. We must remember that Mal’ta boy who carried yDNA R and Afontova Gora man who probably carried yDNA Q seem not have been Caucasoids in the usual sense of the word, as Pavel M. Dolukhanov in his article ”Archaeology and Languages in Prehistoric Northern Eurasia” refers to Debetz (1946) who identified the remains of “nothern Asian Mongoloids” at the site of Afontova Gora 2; they included a fragment of the frontal bone. Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta; and to Alexeev (1998, 323) who in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was “inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance.” Moreover, we all know that Native Americans belong to the Mongoloid race and they inhabited Northeast Asia at a very early date. I think that it is obvious that Mongoloid features are autochtonous to Siberia and not only a result of post-Ice Age mixing with people from China.
    Interesting post Kristiina, and Welcome to Eupedia.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    Cameroons are they negroid? They have haplogroup R1b. They look negroid. Race is just a intermediate state.
    Yes they are. Yet their *fatherly* line descents, if you go back far enough, from someone from the Middle-East. However, autosomal DNA shows they are definitively African negroids.

    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.
    No, it's not just color and looks. Even if color and looks can be deceiving they are not worthless and useless. One could have mistakenly considered aboriginals akin to Africans (Although, if you look well they don't look alike at all). However, cranium types are considered heritable and are used in attempts to show (lack of) kinship between archeological finds. There is also clear genetic differences, as the numerous ADMIXTURE runs show. Also, check dodecads Global 13.

    http://dodecad.blogspot.nl/2012/10/g...t-results.html
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeT.../s1600/1_2.png

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    I think this genetic trail is over simplified. I could imagine there were a lot of Haplogroup P people and covered large territories. One P person might not have had all the sons with the Q and R mutations but the guy in the north had a son with R and another P guy living in the northwest Siberia had a son with N while other P people were still living in Southest Asia. Just like today N,O Q and R people cover large territories.

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    Thank you LeBrok! Here you have more hard evidence on racial characteristics of Palaeolithic Siberians: “V. P. Alekseev discussed the racial types of the Altai-Sayan uplands during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. On the basis of geological and palaeo-climatic evidence, he feels that the initial human settlement of the area could have taken place as far back as the Lower Palaeolithic (which in Soviet usage includes the Mousterian). Judging by the Afontova Gora II cranial fragment, the Upper Palaeolithic population evidently must be assigned to the Mongoloid race. The Europeoid component begins to penetrate into certain areas during the Neolithic -especially into the southern part of the Krasnoyarsk Territory. Alekseev identifies in this latter area a morphologically Negroid type which would indicate contact with_ southern regions. In the Afanasievo period the Europeoid component becomes predominant, while the physical similarity of the Afanasievo population with that of the ancient Yamno culture of the South Russian steppes evidences their kinship as well as the western origin of the bulk of the Afanasievo population.”

    -History of Humanity: Prehistory and the beginnings of civilization edited by Sigfried J. de Laet
    “The other site is Afontova Gora near the City of Krasnoyarsk on the Yenisei. During excavation of a section of this site in 1937 participants in the Seventeenth International Geological Congress discovered a fragment of a child’s skull in the Upper Palaeolithic cultural layer; fortunately it was a piece of the frontal bone around the glabella, with fragments of the nasal bones attached. The flatness of the glabella is an important feature that differentiates modern Caucasians from Mongoloids. Remarking on the flatness of this part of the fragment, Debetz (1946) demonstrated that the fragment had belonged to a Mongoloid. The Afontova fragment is significant in that it shows that, while the Caucasian complex of features in the Upper Palaeolithic population of eastern Europe took shape, as we have seen, in morphological features dissimilar to those of contemporary Caucasians, such a fundamental distinctive feature of the modern representatives of the Mongoloid races as the flat glabella had already formed during the Upper Palaeolithic in northern Asia.”

    -Encyclopedia of Prehistory: Arctic and Subarctic, Volume 6 edited by Peter Neal Peregrine, Melvin Ember
    “Hominid remains dating to the Late Upper Palaeolithic have been found at Afontova Gora II and Novoselovo VI. The remains from Afontova Gora II were found during excavations in the early 1990, and consist of a humerus, radius, ulna and phalanx from a modern human adult and an upper premolar from a modern human juvenile. A few decades later, a frontal cranial fragment of a juvenile modern human was found eroding from the exposed stratigraphic profile of the site. Palaeoanthropologists who have studied these remains consider them to bear “Mongoloid” characteristics. The Novoselovo VI fossil is a fragment of a mandible presumed to have come from a modern human female. ” I think that it is very important to note that these tested Afontova Gora and Malta individuals did not have any East Asian ancestry and were genetically mainly western Eurasian (excluding the Near Eastern ancestry component, as far as I know).

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    Testing......

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    Or, rather, is the "East Asian" component as it exists today a later admixture formed from the ancient ANE populations of northern Eurasia with this later appearing element from the southeast. After all, we know from recent work on Europeans that admixture like or "calculator" like components in Europeans are admixtures of various more ancient strata. Why should the "East Asian" component be any different?

    Population change happened in the east as well as in Europe. Certainly, this recent paper about East Asians indicates just that.
    Nonmetric dental traits and the origin of East Asians:
    http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...origin-of.html

    " Principal findings indicated a major dichotomization of the dataset into (1) an early Southeast Asian sample with close affinities to modern Australian and Melanesian populations and (2) a very distinct grouping of ancient and modern Northeast Asians. Distinct patterns of clinal variation among Neolithic and post-Neolithic Mainland Southeast Asian samples suggest a center to periphery spread of genes into the region from Northeast Asia. This pattern is consistent with archaeological and linguistic evidence for demic diffusion that accompanied agriculturally driven population expansion in the Neolithic. Later Metal Age affinities between Island and Mainland coastal populations with Northeast Asian series is likely a consequence of a South China Sea interaction sphere operating from at least 500 BCE, if not from the Neolithic. Such results provide extensive support for the two-layer hypothesis to account for the population history of the region."

    As concerns Afontova Gora and Mal'ta, I was aware of those papers, and I don't understand, if indeed the analysis was correct, what is so surprising about the findings, given their age and location. Who says that those traits did not go into the current "East Asian" population precisely from that area? So far as I can tell from the research and the discussions, it seems far from settled exactly where they developed. I also wonder about those descriptions of "Negroid" elements. I haven't read the original papers, so bear with me on this, but were they "Negroid" or Australoid and Melanesian like? Perhaps someone should give those remains another look. Given what we are learning about the flow of population from south east Asia back to northern Asia, isn't that a possibility?


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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Haplogroups E & D represent the Negroid race.
    Isnt Haplogroup D predominant of East Asia? How can it represent Negroid race?

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    Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

    As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

    Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
    Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
    Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
    Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

    Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

    As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

    Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
    Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
    Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
    Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

    Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in ancient Siberian burials.
    you need to prove that (K2 group), when the P haplogroup formed in modern Malaya/Borneo area, that .............did it back track in a NW and northern path.......Before the forming of R from P.
    or did R form in this south-east asian area before moving.

    You also recall that the K1 group ( L, T, N and O ) never reached south-east asia and formed prior to P arrival in south-east asia.

    Unless P exploded in population growth in south-east asia, I cannot see how your theory stacks as a high percentage outcome.
    N and O clearly began migrating northwards at least 10000 years before P could return

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