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Thread: Doubts about J2, G and E3b

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    Doubts about J2, G and E3b

    Well, im not an expert in genetics, i know that haplogroups R1a, R1b, I and N are European/White, but what about J2, G and e3b? J2 is very present in South Italy and Greece and they are white. Portugal had significant amounts of e3b, and the biggest contribution of that e3b presence is from the berberian people who were considered a caucasian people before being mixed with the arabians. And the only european/white sub cable of G is G2a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    Well, im not an expert in genetics, i know that haplogroups R1a, R1b, I and N are European/White, but what about J2, G and e3b? J2 is very present in South Italy and Greece and they are white. Portugal had significant amounts of e3b, and the biggest contribution of that e3b presence is from the berberian people who were considered a caucasian people before being mixed with the arabians. And the only european/white sub cable of G is G2a?
    Someone's skin color doesn't tell the full story of their ancestry. If there are two northwest European brothers and one has brown skin and one has white skin, do they have totally differnt ancestors? Skin color in a population can change in as little as a few hundred years or a thousand years. The same type of markers that decide whether someone has very dark or very light skin decides whether someone can drink lactose or not, and just 1,000 years ago or so most Europeans could not drink lactose and now almost all can. Skin color can change just as quickly as a population can become immune to a sickness, which we know through history can happen very quickly.

    You should define people by their genetic markers not their skin color(unless you sampled 1,000's of them you can only guess). It is hard to give strict definitions to people you can only give general ones, and generally Europeans are defined as being a mixture of two stone age populations; hunter gatherers who lived in or near Europe and farmers who lived in west Asia.

    Why European's are uniformly light skinned is a mystery, and it's their genetic markers that define them not a physical trait that can change very quickly. We know through ancient DNA that the hunter gatherers who lived in or near Europe(norther European's main ancestors) probably had dark skin and the farmers from west Asia(south Europeans main ancestors) probably had light skin. We also know that there were genetically modern European(hunter-farmer mix) populations who had dark skin as recently as 5,000 years ago.

    Berbers are in no way European, even if they do have light skin.

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    Who ever said Greeks or whoever have to be put on a European scale? It is smart to use Europe, west Asia, or wherever, as a general region but at the same time we need to acknowledge there are no lakes of fire between these regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Someone's skin color doesn't tell the full story of their ancestry. If there are two northwest European brothers and one has brown skin and one has white skin, do they have totally differnt ancestors? Skin color in a population can change in as little as a few hundred years or a thousand years. The same type of markers that decide whether someone has very dark or very light skin decides whether someone can drink lactose or not, and just 1,000 years ago or so most Europeans could not drink lactose and now almost all can. Skin color can change just as quickly as a population can become immune to a sickness, which we know through history can happen very quickly.

    You should define people by their genetic markers not their skin color(unless you sampled 1,000's of them you can only guess). It is hard to give strict definitions to people you can only give general ones, and generally Europeans are defined as being a mixture of two stone age populations; hunter gatherers who lived in or near Europe and farmers who lived in west Asia.

    Why European's are uniformly light skinned is a mystery, and it's their genetic markers that define them not a physical trait that can change very quickly. We know through ancient DNA that the hunter gatherers who lived in or near Europe(norther European's main ancestors) probably had dark skin and the farmers from west Asia(south Europeans main ancestors) probably had light skin. We also know that there were genetically modern European(hunter-farmer mix) populations who had dark skin as recently as 5,000 years ago.

    Berbers are in no way European, even if they do have light skin.
    But what i ask is if there are any sub cable of J2 e3b and G that are European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    But what i ask is if there are any sub cable of J2 e3b and G that are European.
    In Europe J2 is highest in South Europe and connected to Greek, Phoenician and Jewish civilizations, but also found in the middle east. I dont believe there such a thing as solely as European marker.

    The only subclade of e3b that could be termed European is E-V13 found highest in the Balkans Region and other locations in South Europe including south of France. Its found at much less frequencies outside of Europe and often assosiated with Greek expansion and later Roman occupation.

    G2a would be the most common G subclade found in Europe (but not only) with populations found mostly living on higher altitudes.

    If not mistaken getting a mutation for white skin had more or less started with farming due to change of diet and an adaptation of the skin to lighten up to be able to absorb more sunlight due to eating less meat visa vi to a hunting culture.

    This is all very basic of course and our understanding of things keep changing and growing as more data comes in and technologies are refined.

    I think this link will be able to help you. http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ There is a detailed easy to understand description of these haplogroups and much more with well explained maps to understand better.

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    The origin and distribution of E-M35.1 according to Contact Person for Haplogroup E: Aaron R. Brown of ISOGG 2014 who replied to my question:
    "
    E-M35.1 originated in Northeast Africa. Most of the lineages of E-M35.1 in Europe now are descent from ancient people who crossed the Mediterranean Sea from North Africa into Greece or possibly Italy. There are lineages of E-M35 in Western Asia but those are not common or related to those in Europe."

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    So can you tell me how much percentage of european haplogrups in Portugal? And non-european haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    So can you tell me how much percentage of european haplogrups in Portugal? And non-european haplogroups?
    R1b (of Paleolithic origin) is the most common haplogroup in practically all of the Iberian peninsula and western Europe. Within the R1b haplogroup there are modal haplotypes. One of the best-characterized of these haplotypes is the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In Portugal it reckons generally 60% in the South summing 83% northwards, and in some regions 90%.The Neolithic colonization of Europe from Western Asia and the Middle East beginning around 10,000 years ago reached Iberia, as most of the rest of the continent although, according to the demic diffusion model, its impact was most in the southern and eastern regions of the European continent.
    Starting in the 3rd millennium BC as well as in the Bronze Age, the first wave of migrations into Iberia of speakers of Indo-European languages occurred. These were later (7th and 5th Centuries BC) followed by others that can be identified as Celts.

    At least when it comes to paternal lineages, the West European R1b is the dominant, make of that what you will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    But what i ask is if there are any sub cable of J2 e3b and G that are European.
    Sorry, for my long post. My point was that using the word European is more useful and accurate when talking about genetics and ancient origins than white, and that humans created the idea of Europe, and so it should not be seen as something totally separate from western Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    The origin and distribution of E-M35.1 according to Contact Person for Haplogroup E: Aaron R. Brown of ISOGG 2014 who replied to my question:
    "
    E-M35.1 originated in Northeast Africa. Most of the lineages of E-M35.1 in Europe now are descent from ancient people who crossed the Mediterranean Sea from North Africa into Greece or possibly Italy. There are lineages of E-M35 in Western Asia but those are not common or related to those in Europe."
    I believe this is just one hypothesis Joe. Many other sites still stick to the other hypotheses of entry by land from West Asia to the Balkans. I find the latter more plausible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    R1b (of Paleolithic origin) is the most common haplogroup in practically all of the Iberian peninsula and western Europe. Within the R1b haplogroup there are modal haplotypes. One of the best-characterized of these haplotypes is the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In Portugal it reckons generally 60% in the South summing 83% northwards, and in some regions 90%.The Neolithic colonization of Europe from Western Asia and the Middle East beginning around 10,000 years ago reached Iberia, as most of the rest of the continent although, according to the demic diffusion model, its impact was most in the southern and eastern regions of the European continent.
    Starting in the 3rd millennium BC as well as in the Bronze Age, the first wave of migrations into Iberia of speakers of Indo-European languages occurred. These were later (7th and 5th Centuries BC) followed by others that can be identified as Celts.

    At least when it comes to paternal lineages, the West European R1b is the dominant, make of that what you will.
    Just to add some more info to what Joe stated, Portugal with Spain has approximately around 7% E-M81 which is the predominant haplogroup amongst Berbers (North Africa). While there is no doubt that some of this addmixture must have arrived with the long domination (500years) of Berber/Arab rule, many samples were found in areas that were not occupied by Berbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I believe this is just one hypothesis Joe. Many other sites still stick to the other hypotheses of entry by land from West Asia to the Balkans. I find the latter more plausible.

    I see. Regardless I still didn't get the answer of where E-M35.1 is most common today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    I see. Regardless I still didn't get the answer of where E-M35.1 is most common today.
    With today's knowledge M35.1 is a very general term. M35.1 splits into a further 5 Subclades and each subclade splits further into several subclades which are more specific to different regions. One has to have a more refined test to discover to which of these subclades they belong. M35 covers anything from the horn of Africa to North Africa, West Asia (middle east) and Europe.

    This is the VERY basic information I got from my Genoproject results:- Now I had further tests and was confirmed to EV13 which is much more specific.

    Branch: M35.1

    Age: 20,000 – 24,000 Years Ago

    Location of Origin: East Africa

    Members of this lineage were among the first farmers and helped spread agriculture from the Levant region into the Mediterranean region and beyond.
    Today, in keeping with its place of origin, this line is common among Afro-Asiatic speakers. It represents almost 50 percent of some Albanian groups. It is part of multiple Jewish Diaspora, groups including Ashkenazi Jews (20 percent) and Sephardic Jews (8 to 30 percent).

    (For some reason it does not mention that it makes nearly 50% of the Peloponnese region of Greece!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    With today's knowledge M35.1 is a very general term. M35.1 splits into a further 5 Subclades and each subclade splits further into several subclades which are more specific to different regions. One has to have a more refined test to discover to which of these subclades they belong. M35 covers anything from the horn of Africa to North Africa, West Asia (middle east) and Europe.

    This is the VERY basic information I got from my Genoproject results:- Now I had further tests and was confirmed to EV13 which is much more specific.

    Branch: M35.1

    Age: 20,000 – 24,000 Years Ago

    Location of Origin: East Africa


    Members of this lineage were among the first farmers and helped spread agriculture from the Levant region into the Mediterranean region and beyond.
    Today, in keeping with its place of origin, this line is common among Afro-Asiatic speakers. It represents almost 50 percent of some Albanian groups. It is part of multiple Jewish Diaspora, groups including Ashkenazi Jews (20 percent) and Sephardic Jews (8 to 30 percent).

    (For some reason it does not mention that it makes nearly 50% of the Peloponnese region of Greece!)
    Interesting. So to get the further information you got tested on Geno 2.0? In other words, if I want to find out more specific info I should test on Geno 2.0 too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Interesting. So to get the further information you got tested on Geno 2.0? In other words, if I want to find out more specific info I should test on Geno 2.0 too?
    You have to see who you were tested with initially. I think they store your dna (unless you requested for it to be destroyed) If they stored it you will be able to ask for an upgrade. I did mine with familytree dna as they work in collaboration with Geno project. The result of my first test was just M-35. That tells you very little compared to the amount of new information available. I had a deep clade test and was confirmed E-V13 and E-L542 (now I need to know where the last one takes me as not much info is about with these new subclades. My SNP map also takes South Germany and North Switzerland and some clusters in the UK. I am alos in the M-35 and E-V13 projects.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    all the people have authorised for their results to be published. Of course some for some reason or another will opt to keep their results private and not join any group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    You have to see who you were tested with initially. I think they store your dna (unless you requested for it to be destroyed) If they stored it you will be able to ask for an upgrade. I did mine with familytree dna as they work in collaboration with Geno project. The result of my first test was just M-35. That tells you very little compared to the amount of new information available. I had a deep clade test and was confirmed E-V13 and E-L542 (now I need to know where the last one takes me as not much info is about with these new subclades. My SNP map also takes South Germany and North Switzerland and some clusters in the UK. I am alos in the M-35 and E-V13 projects.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    all the people have authorised for their results to be published. Of course some for some reason or another will opt to keep their results private and not join any group.
    I tested with 23andme, they don't provide deep information. For deeper information on which more recent subclade I belong to, should I get tested on FTDNA or Geno 2.0?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    Well, im not an expert in genetics, i know that haplogroups N are European/White,

    N?? Korea, China, Japan ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    N?? Korea, China, Japan ....
    N is not the haplogroup of Finnish people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    In Europe J2 is highest in South Europe and connected to Greek, Phoenician and Jewish civilizations, but also found in the middle east. I dont believe there such a thing as solely as European marker.
    People tend to downplay the role of J2 in European civilizations. From what I know, J2 was a basic marker of Romans and Etruscans as well. It is quite significant from Southeast Europe all the way into Austria.

    edit: R1b is not paleolithic. Far from it , if anything neolithic/bronze age.
    Last edited by Alan; 12-07-14 at 16:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    You have to see who you were tested with initially. I think they store your dna (unless you requested for it to be destroyed) If they stored it you will be able to ask for an upgrade. I did mine with familytree dna as they work in collaboration with Geno project. The result of my first test was just M-35. That tells you very little compared to the amount of new information available. I had a deep clade test and was confirmed E-V13 and E-L542 (now I need to know where the last one takes me as not much info is about with these new subclades. My SNP map also takes South Germany and North Switzerland and some clusters in the UK. I am alos in the M-35 and E-V13 projects.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    all the people have authorised for their results to be published. Of course some for some reason or another will opt to keep their results private and not join any group.
    In order to get the deeper information you received, should I have the 111 markers test on Ftdna, or will the 67 markers test on Ftdna be enough? Or perhaps I should test on Geno 2.0?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    Well, im not an expert in genetics, i know that haplogroups R1a, R1b, I and N are European/White
    That is incorrect because:
    1. there is an old sub-branch of R1b specific to sub-saharan africa.
    2. R1a and N are also common in people that look East-Asian or South Asian. Especially R1a in the countries South of Russia.
    3. Haplogroup "I" was turned white by the Neolithic farmers who most probably were E3b and G2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo View Post
    Well, im not an expert in genetics, i know that haplogroups R1a, R1b, I and N are European/White, but what about J2, G and e3b? J2 is very present in South Italy and Greece and they are white. Portugal had significant amounts of e3b, and the biggest contribution of that e3b presence is from the berberian people who were considered a caucasian people before being mixed with the arabians. And the only european/white sub cable of G is G2a?
    Trying to mix actual science with 18th century racial anthropology classification doesn't seem quite rational. Considering the fact that in the 18th century only Wasps and Scandinavians were considered "white". Also Europe is really nothing more than part of Asia i.e Eurasia. Also, the Berbers didn't really admix with Arabians according to genetic studies, although the Arab language and Islam did overtake the area, signatures of Arabia like J1 aren't very common. Also, it's generally accepted that the trait of White skin was in fact carried by E3b people from the Middle East to Europe after the Ice age, that means that the first White skinned Europeans were in fact recent arrivals from Western Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    In order to get the deeper information you received, should I have the 111 markers test on Ftdna, or will the 67 markers test on Ftdna be enough? Or perhaps I should test on Geno 2.0?
    I had my deepclade testing (its a separate kind of testing) only on 12 Markers. So I believe your subclades can be confirmed on 12 markers. Very recently I upgraded (separate test) to 67 markers. So in other words what you would need is a deepclade testings. Things change so fast that Im not sure if procedures remain the same. If I were you and if you lost your links with the original company you tested and your dna has not been stored for further testing, then it will be best to get a new mouth swab.

    Geno2 is now much more advanced then when I tested 4 years ago and like many others you can have all the percentages also how much Neanderthal and so on. If I were you I would check out which company can do it best and important that your cheek swabs will be stored just in case you want to make further upgrades, especially that for some they can be pretty costly to do it all once and dna technologies keep growing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I had my deepclade testing (its a separate kind of testing) only on 12 Markers. So I believe your subclades can be confirmed on 12 markers. Very recently I upgraded (separate test) to 67 markers. So in other words what you would need is a deepclade testings. Things change so fast that Im not sure if procedures remain the same. If I were you and if you lost your links with the original company you tested and your dna has not been stored for further testing, then it will be best to get a new mouth swab.

    Geno2 is now much more advanced then when I tested 4 years ago and like many others you can have all the percentages also how much Neanderthal and so on. If I were you I would check out which company can do it best and important that your cheek swabs will be stored just in case you want to make further upgrades, especially that for some they can be pretty costly to do it all once and dna technologies keep growing.
    Alright. I'm not entirely sure if to buy the 37 markers test on FTDNA or the Geno 2.0 test, I suppose the former, because that's how you got the deeper info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    3. Haplogroup "I" was turned white by the Neolithic farmers who most probably were E3b and G2a.
    I also believe (as I have read elsewhere) that it is possible that the little neanderthal admixture could have also triggered off a reaction to lighter skin eyes and hair and low UV concentrations can trigger a natural selection process to the adaptation of the environment one lives in. So it can easily be an amalgamation of situations in adaptations to various situations imposed by lifestyle and general environment.

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