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Thread: R1b and Native Americans

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    When further characterized in the USA (Hammer et al. 2005), 97 per cent of R1 had the M269 SNP (unambiguous Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), which defines R1b1b, the main West European Y-haplogroup,

    this is the abstract :
    http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0...615-8/abstract

    has anybody acces to the full text?
    really , you need a 1 hour session on how to search the net, it will be worth it for you.....no offense

    he is a pdf file

    https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerFSIinpress.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    What's your source for Solutreans being "mostly a haplogroup I people"?
    I don't think it's a stretch to say that Solutreans are "thought to be" mostly haplogroup I, even if academic papers won't usually engage in that sort of speculation. No tests on so ancient a sample have been conducted, obviously, but Maciamo, for example, has placed proto-I as most likely in Europe by the Upper Paleolithic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-Magnon-Y-DNA
    I've read similar sentiments from several other prominent hobbyists, but admittedly little from academics, who have tended to be either silent or wrong. So we still need ancient samples, as always, but in terms of speculation, placing the Solutreans as some sort of mix of Haplogroup I and Haplogroup C seems to be the most reasonable guess based on what we know at the moment, if we assign them to any extant haplogroup at all.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I don't think it's a stretch to say that Solutreans are "thought to be" mostly haplogroup I, even if academic papers won't usually engage in that sort of speculation. No tests on so ancient a sample have been conducted, obviously, but Maciamo, for example, has placed proto-I as most likely in Europe by the Upper Paleolithic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-Magnon-Y-DNA
    I've read similar sentiments from several other prominent hobbyists, but admittedly little from academics, who have tended to be either silent or wrong. So we still need ancient samples, as always, but in terms of speculation, placing the Solutreans as some sort of mix of Haplogroup I and Haplogroup C seems to be the most reasonable guess based on what we know at the moment, if we assign them to any extant haplogroup at all.
    I would even speculate that Solutreans were C-V20, as the Solutrean is suposed to originate from the Aurignacian. It was the last Aurignacian industry.
    All subsequent expanding industries in Europe are suposed to be based on Gravettian. That would explain the replacement of C-V20 by I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I don't think it's a stretch to say that Solutreans are "thought to be" mostly haplogroup I, even if academic papers won't usually engage in that sort of speculation. No tests on so ancient a sample have been conducted, obviously, but Maciamo, for example, has placed proto-I as most likely in Europe by the Upper Paleolithic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-Magnon-Y-DNA
    I've read similar sentiments from several other prominent hobbyists, but admittedly little from academics, who have tended to be either silent or wrong. So we still need ancient samples, as always, but in terms of speculation, placing the Solutreans as some sort of mix of Haplogroup I and Haplogroup C seems to be the most reasonable guess based on what we know at the moment, if we assign them to any extant haplogroup at all.
    Well, yes, if we're talking about a Paleolithic Iberian population that's known to have actually existed, I and C would be reasonable guesses. I may have been mistaken in assuming the previous poster was using "Solutrean" to mean "they're the source of Clovis" but perhaps his reference to I was intended to convey the opposite meaning. I think the idea of Solutreans contributing to Amerindian populations should have been abandoned once it became clear that R1b didn't go back nearly that far in Europe, even without any information about subclades.

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    I've been thinking of the R1b situation among Amerindians and I have yet another improbable theory to explain it, although this one might fit the genetic evidence. There are many accounts of the Vikings finding Irish monks in Iceland when they arrived in 870 AD. I wonder if the Irish might have reached North America several centuries ago. If they did, the easiest way for them to move inland from the east coast of what is now Canada would be up the St. Lawrence River and into the Great Lakes, and many of the tribes that have a lot of R1b either still live or used to live near either the Atlantic Ocean or the Great Lakes. And I suppose that R1b might have been even more dominant in Ireland prior to English colonization than it is now. So it would be interesting to know what specific subclades of R1b are common among tribes such as the Ojibwe. Although there might not be any way to distinguish the descendants of hypothetical early Irish from the descendants of more recent Irish fur traders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I've been thinking of the R1b situation among Amerindians and I have yet another improbable theory to explain it, although this one might fit the genetic evidence. There are many accounts of the Vikings finding Irish monks in Iceland when they arrived in 870 AD. I wonder if the Irish might have reached North America several centuries ago. If they did, the easiest way for them to move inland from the east coast of what is now Canada would be up the St. Lawrence River and into the Great Lakes, and many of the tribes that have a lot of R1b either still live or used to live near either the Atlantic Ocean or the Great Lakes. And I suppose that R1b might have been even more dominant in Ireland prior to English colonization than it is now. So it would be interesting to know what specific subclades of R1b are common among tribes such as the Ojibwe. Although there might not be any way to distinguish the descendants of hypothetical early Irish from the descendants of more recent Irish fur traders.
    That's coureurs de bois country too, isn't it? If all the "European" yDna in these tribes is laid out, I wonder how good a match it might be for northwestern France? I may be misremembering, but didn't a lot of the early French emigrants come from that area?

    However, that still leaves the mtDna X2 unexplained, yes?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's coureurs de bois country too, isn't it? If all the "European" yDna in these tribes is laid out, I wonder how good a match it might be for northwestern France? I may be misremembering, but didn't a lot of the early French emigrants come from that area?

    However, that still leaves the mtDna X2 unexplained, yes?
    Yes, the Great Lakes were used as a highway by both the Cour de Bois (unofficial traders) and the Voyageurs (official traders) since before 1700 and there was definitely some admixture but I've met enough Ojibwe to know that they're nowhere near 80% paternal European ancestry. And although most French settlers in Canada were from northwestern France, where R1b runs around 75-80% R1b, that doesn't explain why R1b would be 25 times as common as other "European" Y haplotypes among the Ojibwe, which is the result Mahli got in 2008, although that was only from 63 samples and I don't know the selection method. And, as you say, it doesn't explain why X2 is so common in that same population - I can't think of anything that would explain the high incidence of both R1b and X2 if we conclude that we have to forget about a Siberian source based on the idea that the R1b subclades are recent European. And I don't know why some Dene tribes are a mixture of R1b, C and Q but no "European" haplotypes at all other than R1b. If the 40% R1b among the Dogrib came from Hudson Bay traders, why is the rest either C (33%) or Q (27%) with zero other "European haplotypes? At this point I can't think of a good explanation.
    Last edited by Aberdeen; 22-12-14 at 04:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I would even speculate that Solutreans were C-V20, as the Solutrean is suposed to originate from the Aurignacian. It was the last Aurignacian industry.
    All subsequent expanding industries in Europe are suposed to be based on Gravettian. That would explain the replacement of C-V20 by I.
    Who argues that the Solutrean is based on the Aurignacian and not the Gravettian? I thought that there was a 10,000 or so year gap between Aurignacian and Solutrean. Meanwhile, the Gravettian is found all across Europe during the time in-between. Also, the Magdalenian is a pretty clear successor to the Solutrean, why would it suddenly be based on a different culture from a few thousand years earlier?

    That said, it's plausible that the Solutrean could have been Haplogroup C dominant. It's not possible to tell the relative ratio of C to I so far back yet. Unfortunately, it could range anywhere from 100:0 to 0:100 based on what we know at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    And I don't know why some Dene tribes are a mixture of R1b, C and Q but no "European" haplotypes at all other than R1b. If the 40% R1b among the Dogrib came from Hudson Bay traders, why is the rest either C (33%) or Q (27%) with zero other "European haplotypes? At this point I can't think of a good explanation.
    Sample sizes. I assume you're referencing Malhi 2008 for the Dogrib percentages? Their sample size was 15. Actually, you picked a perfect case for why sample sizes are the only real problem. Dulik 2012 tested the Dogrib again, but this time at a sample size of 37. In terms of European-origin haplogroups, they got 3 R1b, 2 N1c, 1 I1, and 1 J2b. All consistent with what we may expect from a population that recently mixed with Europeans, given a small sample size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Sample sizes. I assume you're referencing Malhi 2008 for the Dogrib percentages? Their sample size was 15. Actually, you picked a perfect case for why sample sizes are the only real problem. Dulik 2012 tested the Dogrib again, but this time at a sample size of 37. In terms of European-origin haplogroups, they got 3 R1b, 2 N1c, 1 I1, and 1 J2b. All consistent with what we may expect from a population that recently mixed with Europeans, given a small sample size.
    I guess I should have gone with Mahli's 243 samples from the Athabaskans, another Na-Dene group. He found 11.5% C, 70.4% Q, 18.1% R1 and 0% other. And in 2003, Bortolini sampled 48 Chipewyan, another Na-Dene group, and found 6% C, 31% Q, 62.5% R1 and 0% other. But the explanation of sampling bias still has appeal as a possible explanation simply because no other explanation seems to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I guess I should have gone with Mahli's 243 samples from the Athabaskans, another Na-Dene group. He found 11.5% C, 70.4% Q, 18.1% R1 and 0% other. And in 2003, Bortolini sampled 48 Chipewyan, another Na-Dene group, and found 6% C, 31% Q, 62.5% R1 and 0% other. But the explanation of sampling bias still has appeal as a possible explanation simply because no other explanation seems to work.
    R1* would make more sense among Native Americans than R1b. R1* is very close to the Mal'ta boy's R*, so it could have been found among the Siberian tribes that crossed over the Bering Strait alongside C3 and Q1a2a1. As far as we know R1a* and R1b* developed closer to southern Central Asia than to eastern Siberia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I guess I should have gone with Mahli's 243 samples from the Athabaskans, another Na-Dene group. He found 11.5% C, 70.4% Q, 18.1% R1 and 0% other. And in 2003, Bortolini sampled 48 Chipewyan, another Na-Dene group, and found 6% C, 31% Q, 62.5% R1 and 0% other. But the explanation of sampling bias still has appeal as a possible explanation simply because no other explanation seems to work.
    have you read the whole study?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...nihms64490.pdf

    at the bottom of page 3 :


    Only samples that were
    determined to belong to haplogroups Q (Q-M3 and Q-M242), C, or R were included in the
    Haplogroup data set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Who argues that the Solutrean is based on the Aurignacian and not the Gravettian? I thought that there was a 10,000 or so year gap between Aurignacian and Solutrean. Meanwhile, the Gravettian is found all across Europe during the time in-between. Also, the Magdalenian is a pretty clear successor to the Solutrean, why would it suddenly be based on a different culture from a few thousand years earlier?
    it was argued on the base of the special lithics of the Solutrean

    but I checked and you're right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1* would make more sense among Native Americans than R1b. R1* is very close to the Mal'ta boy's R*, so it could have been found among the Siberian tribes that crossed over the Bering Strait alongside C3 and Q1a2a1. As far as we know R1a* and R1b* developed closer to southern Central Asia than to eastern Siberia.
    Although I haven't read any of the papers these figures come from, I have read comments on other forums that the results were listed as R because the results weren't examined in enough depth to determine subclades. Sparky has said he thinks all the R must be from recent European contact because a number of Amerindians have had their DNA tested by private firms and there are no reports of previously unknown subclades. That does seem conclusive, except for the fact that more traditional Native people don't like DNA testing and are less likely to pay to have their DNA results tested. However, I think that also means that the people willing to be tested by scientists are more likely to be those Amerindians who are less traditional and more likely to have recent European admixture, which could be screwing up the results of tests by people like Mahli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    have you read the whole study?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...nihms64490.pdf

    at the bottom of page 3 :


    Only samples that were
    determined to belong to haplogroups Q (Q-M3 and Q-M242), C, or R were included in the
    Haplogroup data set.
    I hadn't found the study and was just quoting from a chart I found on the net. Is that the same study? The year and the name of the lead researcher are the same but the number of subjects is different. And it's not a study of members of the tribe in northern Canada and Alaska who are usually referred to as Athabaskans. The name used to be applied to all Na-Dene but I didn't think it was used as a global term anymore. The study you've provided a link to doesn't seem very meaningful to me when I look at it. It's a collection of test results from various Na-Dene groups all over North America plus some he lifted from other studies. And I don't know why he would list only those Y haplotypes that were C, Q and R if there were in fact other haplotypes. I think I'll stop worrying about the issue until I can look at a proper and thorough study that has hundreds of samples and a sound testing methodology. I thought we had a few studies suggesting that there was an interesting puzzle here but it's beginning to look as if it might just be sloppy science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    ...
    But the European-like admixture in Amerindians like Algonquin is always accompanied by East-Asian admixture (yellow) at K<12, which is otherwise lacking (not really lacking, but subsumed under the "new" Chipewyan component). For K>11 it gets almost subsumed under Chipewyan.
    ...
    Yes, but at lower levels of K below 12, the European component of the Algonquins look to me to remain fairly steady at about 25 percent; it’s the red Chipewyan component that looks to partly go to Siberian at K < 12. I wonder if they tested different algorithms with different parameter settings, and if they produced graphs that looked similar to this one? This proportion of 25 percent European-like ancestry in the autosomal makeup of Algonquin tribes aligns much better with the 25% of mtdna X2 found in them, rather than with the much higher proportions of R1b found in the Y-chromosomes – 79% in one study.


    @Aberdeen: R1b has a very wide geographical distribution compared to most other haplogroups; it even went into sub-Saharan Africa. Perhaps that was influenced by genes for being individualistic, independent and prone to exploration.


    @sparkey: In Stanford and Bradley’s book, Across Atlantic Ice, they do a cluster analysis of some characteristics of stone tools, and they conclude that the Gravettian and Magdalenian are more similar to each other than either are to the Solutrean. So possibly the Solutreans were of a different genotype, such as R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post


    @Aberdeen: R1b has a very wide geographical distribution compared to most other haplogroups; it even went into sub-Saharan Africa. Perhaps that was influenced by genes for being individualistic, independent and prone to exploration.
    .
    I was thinking along same line. If R1b was very mobile and migrated to Central Africa and Western Europe, why couldn't it migrate to America too, through Siberia and Alaska?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I was thinking along same line. If R1b was very mobile and migrated to Central Africa and Western Europe, why couldn't it migrate to America too, through Siberia and Alaska?
    IMO, R1b could easily have done that. IMO, R1b could have migrated to the Americas with the Na-Dene, who arrived there 8-10 thousand years ago, if I remember correctly. But there are African, European and Russian branches of R1b and if we look at the European branch, for example, it's divided into different subclades. So there should be a separate American branch, probably consisting of more than one subclade. The research papers apparently didn't look into the haplotypes in enough detail to tell us anything about that but, as sparkey has pointed out, Native people who've had their DNA tested and who have Y haplotype R1b seem to have European subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    IMO, R1b could easily have done that.
    Here’s a video of Dr. Dennis Stanford from a speech he gave a couple years ago following the publication of his book on the Solutrean hypothesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tjoHMMPH90&list=PLFD20D41E19BC03A9



    He makes the crossing of the Bering land bridge out to be a difficult task. From about 12:24 to 13:00 he states:


    “The Bering land bridge during the last Ice Age was probably the coldest place in the world. And it still is. It’s underwater though. And even if it was a land bridge, it was dark many months out of the year. It was wet in the summer. And the only time we could cross it without a boat, or without big high waders(?), would have been in the winter. But people did do it. But that began to worry me a little bit...”


    Regardless, it sounds like it would have taken hardy people to do that - as the Solutreans seemingly also would have been.

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    Channel Islands rout is most likely. Coastal fishing groups on small boats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    Channel Islands rout is most likely. Coastal fishing groups on small boats.
    I agree that a route along the coast of Asia and the Americas is the most likely route for the first peopling of the Americas. And that's why we'll never find evidence of the first people to arrive in the Americas. Their physical remains and artifacts are likely under water, since sea levels are considerably higher than they were during the last glacial maximum. I do think other routes would have become possibilities later, as people improved their ability to travel by sea. Also, it would have become possible to live in the high arctic near the Bering Sea after the ice receded. I've never believed in the idea of some magic ice free corridor in "Beringa" during the last glacial maximum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    IMO, R1b could easily have done that. IMO, R1b could have migrated to the Americas with the Na-Dene, who arrived there 8-10 thousand years ago, if I remember correctly. But there are African, European and Russian branches of R1b and if we look at the European branch, for example, it's divided into different subclades. So there should be a separate American branch, probably consisting of more than one subclade. The research papers apparently didn't look into the haplotypes in enough detail to tell us anything about that but, as sparkey has pointed out, Native people who've had their DNA tested and who have Y haplotype R1b seem to have European subclades.
    I don't see, however, how the mtDna X2 levels can be explained as recent European admixture unless the samples were poorly selected, or there was one heck of a founder effect from a European woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see, however, how the mtDna X2 levels can be explained as recent European admixture unless the samples were poorly selected, or there was one heck of a founder effect from a European woman.
    It doesn't seem to be a recent thing, if we can judge by a paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics on October 20, 2003 by Reidla et al entitled "Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X. They concluded that the X2 found in North America is not closely related to the European X2 or to the mtDNA X found in the Altaic region and probably split of from the main group of mtDNA X when the haplogroup first started to spread about 20,000 years ago.

    There seems to be more solid research on mtDNA than on Y DNA when it comes to Indigenous populations in the Americas.

    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

    If the X2 has been in the Americas that long, it's a bit strange that it's so common among people who speak or spoke an Algonquin type language such as Ojibwe but is rare among other tribes (except for some Na-Dene) and is completely absent in South America.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In the recent 2014 paper by Stanford, Bradley and Oppenheimer: http://www.academia.edu/9562579/Solu...th_in_the_room they give estimates of the ages of the Native American mtdna A, B, C and D branches as being about 14,000 years old:

    The five deepest branches (specifically A2, B2, C1a&b & D1) date genetically in America around 14-kya (Soares et al. 2009, Fig. 6), consistent with the dates of the 14-kya coprolites from Oregon which, neatly, feature A2 andB2 aDNA haplotypes (Gilbert et al. 2008).

    (I don’t know why they say C1a, and not C1b, C1c, and C1d. I thought C1a was exclusively East Asian)

    They then give some estimates of the age of mtdna X2a: one as being 14,000 years old and another as being about 21,000 years old:

    So much is common ground, but there is a fifth Palaeolithic American haplogroup: X2a, derived from West Eurasian ‘X’ (Brown et al. 1998; Reidla et al. 2003). This uniquely-American founder lineage ‘X2a’, is a sub-clade of X2-225 (Fernandes et al. 2012), and is of Pleistocene age: 14,080 yr; (10,321 – 17,914) by Maximum Likelihood (ML) and 21,289 yr (11,040 – 32,035) by Rho, on complete mtDNA sequences (Fernandes et al. 2012).

    They then give the age results of another study in which they state:

    ML estimates for five other American founding lineages with ultimate East Eurasian ancestors (A2: 14.6 ky; B2: 14.6ky; C1a: 13.0 ky; C1b: 14.5 ky; and D1: 13.5 ky). By contrast, the estimates Hooshiar Kashani et al. (2012) make for the age of American X2a (table 2) were older: 18.60 + / – 5.5ky (ML) and 18.4 + / – 5.2 ky (Rho)

    My understanding is that these mtdna haplogroup ages are difficult to estimate, not least because there are so few markers in the complete mtdna sequence. Nonetheless, as shown above most of the results in the paper indicate an older age for X2a in America than the other Native American A, B, C and D clades.

    That being said, I read Oppenheimer’s book The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story some five years ago, and my impression was that some of it was good, and some of it wasn’t – meaning I’d be sceptical with some of the things he says. For instance, he seemed to be over-confident in some of his results, where just a small number of different STR markers (like, maybe six) were used.

    Another thing that’s interesting in the paper is that some mtdna from a member of the extinct Beothuk tribe from Newfoundland (Eastern Canada) has been identified as X2a1. The Beothuks have been reported to be more European-looking than most Native American tribes. And in a sample of Algonquin-speaking Mi-kmaqs from around that general region, 3 out of 6 belonged to X2a (probably X2a1.) And some Mi-kmaqs can pass as looking European.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Oppenheimer's The Origin of the British is pretty much a case study in how some researchers drew wrong, overreaching conclusions from small amounts of data in the early days of population genetics. I was wondering when we would hear from him again. I suppose it's not surprising that he's releasing a paper on the Solutrean Hypothesis based on mtDNA.

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