R1b and Native Americans

[Aberdeen]

Some Micmac can pass as looking European because they're mostly European. They live on the east coast and, from what I've seen, they're far more admixed than, for example, the Ojibwe, who some studies say have close to 25% X2. And the Beothuk are long since extinct.

After reading the Origins of the British, I wouldn't put too much stock in any conclusion reached by Oppenheimer, but maybe that's just me.

[MOESAN]

It doesn't seem to be a recent thing, if we can judge by a paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics on October 20, 2003 by Reidla et al entitled "Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X. They concluded that the X2 found in North America is not closely related to the European X2 or to the mtDNA X found in the Altaic region and probably split of from the main group of mtDNA X when the haplogroup first started to spread about 20,000 years ago.

There seems to be more solid research on mtDNA than on Y DNA when it comes to Indigenous populations in the Americas.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

If the X2 has been in the Americas that long, it's a bit strange that it's so common among people who speak or spoke an Algonquin type language such as Ojibwe but is rare among other tribes (except for some Na-Dene) and is completely absent in South America.

Don't take my remark too seriously but by hazard I have been looking to "forensic" (sic) reconstitutions of ancient steppic people of West Eurasia in the threads under Anthropology, and now it strikes me that some of them seem showing something not precisely europoid NOR typical east-asiatic (mongoloid), with strong broad cheekbones, ruggish face relief and hyperprominent (hypereuropoid) noses as we could see on the pictures old N-E Ameridians of the Plains -
just a flash - what worth?
good week-end

[JS Bach]

Some Micmac can pass as looking European because they're mostly European. They live on the east coast and, from what I've seen, they're far more admixed than, for example, the Ojibwe, who some studies say have close to 25% X2. And the Beothuk are long since extinct.

I once had a co-worker who described himself as Micmac. When I first saw him I thought he was white. He had a French last name. I heard one of the Senior managers ask him: “Are you French?” And he said, no, he was Native Canadian Micmac. He had slightly darker skin than most white people. To me, it looked like he could have passed as either white or Native Canadian. A very nice fellow.


Regarding the admixture graph from the Lazaridis et al 2014 paper I posted earlier in this thread: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf it’s notable that the Algonquin, Cree and Ojibwe samples have a good deal of the light blue Mediterranean component as well as the dark blue North European component. It’s true that none of the Ancient European hunter-gatherer samples in the graph have any of the Mediterranean component, and that certainly carries weight, but seeing as how mtdna X is clearly distributed today in both the Middle East and Europe (as R1b-M269 is as well) maybe the population carried both components across the Atlantic, perhaps 18,000 years ago. Or maybe I’ve had too much whiskey.

[Melancon]

I once had a co-worker who described himself as Micmac. When I first saw him I thought he was white. He had a French last name. I heard one of the Senior managers ask him: “Are you French?” And he said, no, he was Native Canadian Micmac. He had slightly darker skin than most white people. To me, it looked like he could have passed as either white or Native Canadian. A very nice fellow.


Regarding the admixture graph from the Lazaridis et al 2014 paper I posted earlier in this thread: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf it’s notable that the Algonquin, Cree and Ojibwe samples have a good deal of the light blue Mediterranean component as well as the dark blue North European component. It’s true that none of the Ancient European hunter-gatherer samples in the graph have any of the Mediterranean component, and that certainly carries weight, but seeing as how mtdna X is clearly distributed today in both the Middle East and Europe (as R1b-M269 is as well) maybe the population carried both components across the Atlantic, perhaps 18,000 years ago. Or maybe I’ve had too much whiskey.

It could be that he is a Metis calling himself Micmac.

[Tomenable]

The oldest sample of R1b in Europe is from the Kromsdorf site, from circa 2600 to 2500 BC, and there hasn't been a single evidence of R1b from the multitude of Neolithic sites.

There is now one Neolithic R1b1 from the Els Trocs site in Spain, from circa 5178 to 5066 BC.

But when it comes to the spread of European clades of R1b in post-Columbian times in America:

I think that immunity to diseases could play a significant role. Children from mixed native-European relationships had better immunity to European diseases, and they had a greater chance to recover from epidemics of smallpox, etc. Bottleneck effects certainly occured during outbreaks of those diseases, and European-admixed individuals were more likely to be among the survivors than not.

[Tomenable]

Regarding the discussion about the Ojibwe (other names: Ojibwa; Chippewa) from page 1:

There is some correlation between Y haplotype R1b and mtDNA X2. The most noticeable example is the Ojibwe tribe, a quite numerous group centred around the Great Lakes. Mostly R1b and over 20% X2 according to a couple of studies, although the sample sizes were small. And it can be confusing because the Algonquin, Ojibwe, Chippewa and Saulteaux tribes are closely related and different bands are given different labels by different researchers. Although the Chipewayan are a different group than the Chippewa. Confused yet?

The post-Columbian demographic history of the Ojibwe - maybe some hints explaining their DNA can be found here?:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...ew=1up;seq=523

[Tomenable]

Here about the loss of native American haplogroup diversity after 1492:

http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.co...diversity.html

For example mtDNA haplogroup M apparently got extinct from America:

http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.co...rica-hg-m.html

[Twilight]

There's R1b in many parts of the world, but none to speak of in Siberia. In any case, the R1b among Native Americans doesn't seem to differ from European DNA. If the subclades were markedly different, I think someone would have noticed. The amount of R1b among some Native American groups can be explained by recent admixture, but the amount that seems to be there in some tribes (all out of proportion to evidence for admixture and all out of proportion to other "European" Y haplotypes) just doesn't seem to fit any reasonable explanation, IMO.

You know, 23andme has been having trouble with Native Americans getting less NA DNA then they deserve, perhaps there was some intermingling somewhere is Pre-Columbian or early settlers

[Tomenable]

An African slave who died at Saint Martin between 1660-1688 had haplogroup R1b-V88:

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/12/3669.full.pdf

It is known that escaped African slaves mixed with some Amerindian tribes, including Caribs.

I suppose that in North America some of R1b could also be introduced by the Vikings in the 1000s.

Maybe even by the Irish (there are rumours that the Irish people reached America before the Vikings).

[Aaron1981]

There was no R1b in North or South America before the white man. The latest studies that have real YDNA and autosomal profiles from Anzick and possibly others (I don't recall all the details as it didn't interest me much) show the profile of the ancient people to be nearly identical to the modern ones when you strip away the European admixture.

It appears there was a bottleneck, likely in the difficult times crossing the strait and they all descend from Q1a3-L54 men. There may be a small bit of diversity here but the likelihood of being something other than Q or C is very low as these were prominent lineages in and around Chuchki peninsula. Bottom line - NO R.

[LeBrok]

There was no R1b in North or South America before the white man. The latest studies that have real YDNA and autosomal profiles from Anzick and possibly others (I don't recall all the details as it didn't interest me much) show the profile of the ancient people to be nearly identical to the modern ones when you strip away the European admixture.

It appears there was a bottleneck, likely in the difficult times crossing the strait and they all descend from Q1a3-L54 men. There may be a small bit of diversity here but the likelihood of being something other than Q or C is very low as these were prominent lineages in and around Chuchki peninsula. Bottom line - NO R.

Agh, how come you strip European admixture to determine that there was no mixing with Viking and their R1b?! You know Vikings were Europeans...

[Twilight]

[QUOTE=Tomenable;459448]An African slave who died at Saint Martin between 1660

In order for the Vikings to be present in Precolumbian American dna, haplogroup I and R1a have to be present as well as R1b but celtic irish sounds interesting :).

[LeBrok]

An African slave who died at Saint Martin between 1660

In order for the Vikings to be present in Precolumbian American dna, haplogroup I and R1a have to be present as well as R1b but celtic irish sounds interesting :).

Yes, but what if it was only one or two guys who married native girls, and happened to be R1b?
If at the end the native R1 turns to be Viking R1b, it would mean that R1b is very virulent indeed. Not only in Western Europe but also in North America.

[Twilight]

Yes, but what if it was only one or two guys who married native girls, and happened to be R1b?
If at the end the native R1 turns to be Viking R1b, it would mean that R1b is very virulent indeed. Not only in Western Europe but also in North America.

Possible, I suppose if the R1 is Viking than the dna would have conservatively come from Vinland; the Vikings who stayed behind not to mention Mr.Gnupson' s silence after the voyage to North America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vinl..._Norse_voyages

Perhaps a genetic pattern could be teased out by 23andme to see if the dna is from Scandinavia and/or his slaves.

The strange thing also is there is a uncanny resemblance to the Algic language families and the Canadian province of Nunavut.

Compare these map link

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._R_(Y-DNA).PNG
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algo...uian_langs.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Canada.svg.png
http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/r.../continent.gif

According to Wikipedia; source below, Nunavut had quite a few Viking contacts prior to Leif Erickson's settlement in Vinland.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nunavut

UPDATE:
According to ancestrydna, Native Americans; (I'm assuming those with documents stating that they are 100% Native American) tend to be at a genetic range of between 100%-85% NA Dna; at least those tested by Ancestrydna.

[Twilight]

Could have been from Vikings, that's 1,000 years ago. Long enough for R1b to spread around.

I suppose that's possible but again I'm puzzled as to why that would only happened with R1b and not the other relevant "European" type haplotypes, which do appear in significant numbers in tribes known to have considerable European admixture, such as the Eastern Algonquin.

According to Ancestrydna, 8% of Native Americans were Iberian(Latin American?), 4% Great Britian (Brythoic/Celtiberian?) and 2% Italy/Greece(Greco-Roman/Latin American?)

that being said, I highly doubt that actual Scandinavian Vikings, Slavs or Germanic tribes ever intermingled with Precolumbian Americans; however, I still can not rule out the possibility of Vikings relinquishing their slaves;of Romanized British origin and the Romanized Britians intermingling with Native Americans.

I also doubt that European DNA crossed the Bering land ridge with the other Native Americans because the East Europeans (Slavs) are not mentioned in the "Region % of natives that have this region"

[RobertColumbia]

I once had a co-worker who described himself as Micmac. When I first saw him I thought he was white. He had a French last name. I heard one of the Senior managers ask him: “Are you French?” And he said, no, he was Native Canadian Micmac. He had slightly darker skin than most white people. To me, it looked like he could have passed as either white or Native Canadian. A very nice fellow....

IME, many people of partial-Native ancestry (with the rest being white) could pass in many areas of the US (and, I suspect Canada as well) as Greek or Sicilian as long as they stayed away from areas with a large amount of actual Greek or Sicilian presence (e.g. New York City, most of New Jersey).

[Salmon]

Ancient Eurasians crossed the Atlantic on canoes?

or

Modern researchers are not taking into account the possibility that many natives mixed with early European settlers in the NorthEast.

[geoiii]

soultrean hypothesis does not explain presence of r1b. 20,000 BC r1b was still only in central asia, did not reach western europe until bronze age. it would have been theoretically possible that bronze age r1b humans made it to north america around 1000 BC, but they would have brought bronze age tech with them and when columbus discovered new world he would have found bronze age civ. the soultrean culture from france was supposedly haplogroup X and Clovis were supposedly Q like all native americans with no R not to mention any R1b.

[kevingnet]

Some of the other tribes that have elevated levels of R1b are in northwestern Canada and in some cases are Dene. Plus, there are apparently high rates of R1b among the Dene who migrated into the southern U.S. about 400 years ago (the Navaho and Apache). Of course, there are other tribes in eastern and central North America that have significant amounts of R1b but they also have significant amounts of other "European" Y haplotypes and a history of heavy intermarriage with whites, so I wouldn't make too much of the R1b in those tribes - examples are MicMac, Quebec Cree and Cherokee. But it is odd that at least one Dene tribe has about 40% R1b and apparently no other "European" haplotypes and that the Ojibwe, which historical records would suggest have less admixture than some tribes, have nearly 80% R1b and only about 3% other "European" R1b. So the distribution might suggest that some group of Siberian R1b types, perhaps distant descendants of Mal"ta Boy's relatives, migrated across the Bering Straits after the initial peopling of the Americas and that some of them eventually settled around the Great Lakes, where there was copper to be had. Except that in order for that theory to work, the R1b should consist of unique subclades, and I'm not aware of anyone finding any so far.

At this point, I'd still be inclined to consider the possibility of sampling issues. If you look up the original studies, the number of samples is fairly small, and I don't know what the selection criteria were.

Yes...but...80%?!
Isn't that a bit high to explain simple intermarriage? Not saying it was or wasn't, just that the data is suspici0us.

[kevingnet]

I think there are some R1b in Nepal.

I think that's my uncle. He likes to travel a lot, and he said the other day, he likes girls from Nepal.

[bicicleur]

Yes...but...80%?!
Isn't that a bit high to explain simple intermarriage? Not saying it was or wasn't, just that the data is suspici0us.

the Ojibwe were traders and allies of the French colonisers near the rapids between Upper Lake and Lake Huron
they were the first to acquire firearms which explains their rapid expansion
appearantly before the expansion lot of their Y-DNA was switched into R1b

[firetown]

Some Micmac can pass as looking European because they're mostly European. They live on the east coast and, from what I've seen, they're far more admixed than, for example, the Ojibwe, who some studies say have close to 25% X2. And the Beothuk are long since extinct. After reading the Origins of the British, I wouldn't put too much stock in any conclusion reached by Oppenheimer, but maybe that's just me.

Show me some evidence please, because my network of rhesus negative people has a few "micmacs", many blood type A negative.

[Rethel]

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[airwalk12]

The only reason Native Americans have R1b is because of Admixture from colonization. Many people who say they are 100% Native American are not so genetically, especially in the US....most tribes are admixed. Have you not noticed a lot of people who say they are Native American look european?

I believe this is one reason NA tribes in the US do not want to take DNA tests because it will show a lot of admixture with European DNA

[Angela]

The only reason Native Americans have R1b is because of Admixture from colonization. Many people who say they are 100% Native American are not so genetically, especially in the US....most tribes are admixed. Have you not noticed a lot of people who say they are Native American look european?

I believe this is one reason NA tribes in the US do not want to take DNA tests because it will show a lot of admixture with European DNA

That's very true, in my experience, especially for east coast and upper midwest tribes, like the ones around the Great Lakes. The Cherokee were very admixed even before they were forced out west. Some of the eastern tribes also have some SSA.

I've wondered if perhaps the admixture saved some people from the European diseases.