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Thread: R1b and Native Americans

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    Why is it such a mystery where R1b originated in Native Americans? Couldn't you just look at the subclades of R1b they have? If it were more recent from the colonial, viking era, etc. you would think there would be other european haplogroups and not just R1b.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    They do have other European haplogroups. Most of the studies have not had high enough resolution, but such as have been tested are almost all R1b-M269.

    For instance Hammer's 2005 pooled sample of US Native Americans (n=396) has 22% R1b-M269 and a single (0.3%) R1b-P25(xM269), as well as 5% I, 3% E, 2% R1a, 1% J, and singles of G and N, the rest being C and Q.

    You can find unexpectedly high levels in some groups, some odd haplotypes in old studies, etc, but so far no distinct Amerindian subclades have actually been identified, if they exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    They do have other European haplogroups. Most of the studies have not had high enough resolution, but such as have been tested are almost all R1b-M269.

    For instance Hammer's 2005 pooled sample of US Native Americans (n=396) has 22% R1b-M269 and a single (0.3%) R1b-P25(xM269), as well as 5% I, 3% E, 2% R1a, 1% J, and singles of G and N, the rest being C and Q.

    You can find unexpectedly high levels in some groups, some odd haplotypes in old studies, etc, but so far no distinct Amerindian subclades have actually been identified, if they exist.
    Pretty much says it all. Now I'm very interested if any of these were seeded by Vikings around 1,000 CE.
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    It could be from Greeks, and specifically from Heracleidians - Dorians. There is a passage from the 1st century Greek writer Plutarch, from his book "Concerning the Face Which Appears in the Orb of the Moon" in which he describes the presence of Greeks in Canada (St Lawrence bay area) and Greenland and other islands. They are described as having a presence there from way before the time of Heracles, who went there and revived the Greek spark for they are described as already having turned native. Why would they have had a presence there? Plutarch describes them as very spiritual and devoted particularly to Heracles and Saturn to whom they devoted a sacred journey. The whole way is an image of what the poets called the golden age, a time when Saturn reigned. Which would correspond to a way of life of the period before and including the neolithic, I think this is the answer to the mystery of the old copper complex. How else can one explain the appearance of copper technology in the old copper complex at the time it did, right after it was discovered in the old world. Keep in mind that, as far as we know and in Europe at least, the oldest copper is from the Balkans. That's where copper started. And the Aegean peoples had a probably advanced seamanship in the Mesolithic, obsidian from the island of Melos was traded all over the Aegean and beyond, which indicates an advanced trading network. So here's the passage from Plutarch. I calculated and measured all the distances he provides, on google map, they are all exact. The geography of north america he describes is correct. penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/The_Face_in_the_Moon*/D.html
    Last edited by Ermotimos; 17-10-17 at 04:35.

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    Υou could reach Greenland from Britain in five days with a fast enough ship. Even with dugout canoes like the Polynesians. The distance of Ogygia (Greenland) from the mainland coast is 5000 stadia. That is 900 kilometers (one Athenian stadio is 180 meters), which is the distance of Greenland to the Canadian mainland and he says the sea is difficult to traverse because of what he considers alluvial deposits from the rivers, but it is specified that it was congealed, so he is probably talking about sea ice, which he or they believed was created by the muddynes of the continental rivers. The three other islands are some of the ones in Nunavut. This is indicated further by the arctic twilight conditions specified. The gulf which is the size of (not smaller than) the Maeotis lake (Azov sea) and on the same latitude as the mouth of the Caspian sea is the St Lawrence Bay (they haven't translated this part correctly in this link, the original text mentions latitude apart from size, it reads "whose mouth (the gulfs) is in line with the mouth of the Caspian". The estuaries of the Volga and the St Lawrence river are probably the "mouths" of the two).
    Through the St Lawrence river they would have had naval access to the isle Royal copper mines, as the lakes were probably much bigger in the deep past after the ice age melt down and probably connected into one great lake.
    But they could have also have used the rivers that connect the lakes. Today you can canoe this distance. They did use the rivers all over Europe. Rivers were the highways
    Last edited by Ermotimos; 16-10-17 at 18:10.

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    Native groups that have little European admixture(25%) in US looks closer to Europeans than Hispanics, despite Hispanics have more than 80% European Ydna?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    what is interesting is how the use of copper for tools stopped, according to wikipedia, around 3000 years ago. Why was it that it was abandoned after 3000 years of use? Could it be that it was a particular culture that worked the copper and when they disappeared from the mine locality on isle Royale, the locals just didn't "pick it up"? Is it possible that the lowering lake levels cut off Greek naval access to the mines? It is curious that Plutarch doesn't mention copper, though he mentions gold. According to wikipedia in the article for the Old Copper Complex "By about 3,000 years ago the use of copper is increasingly restricted to jewelry and other status-related items, rather than for tools. This is thought to represent the development of more complex hierarchical cultures in the area" Maybe it was a political decision of the peoples of Cronos and Heracles, to move away from copper as a tool-weapon. Though it was still used by the copper Inuit in historical times. Or maybe it had something to do with the collapse of the copper trade with the introduction of iron in the old world and the bronze age collapse.
    Last edited by Ermotimos; 17-10-17 at 16:41.

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    Are there distinct subclades of R1b in European populations? Like is it possible to distinguish R1b from Britain from that of the Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ermotimos View Post
    Are there distinct subclades of R1b in European populations? Like is it possible to distinguish R1b from Britain from that of the Balkans?
    Start reading here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok, thanks. So there are indeed many subclades of R1b. So what is the problem in determining the origin of R1b among the Anishinaabeg and other peoples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ermotimos View Post
    Ok, thanks. So there are indeed many subclades of R1b. So what is the problem in determining the origin of R1b among the Anishinaabeg and other peoples?
    Check post 77.

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    Aha, ok. So, according to the graph, R1b-M269 R1b1a1a2 also has an early bronze age Balkan-Anatolian subclade. R1b1a1a2b. If it's that it could be from the Greeks. If not, it's probably from early ice age Siberian Mammoth hunter admixtures. But no, wait. According to the graph M269 is from the chalcolithic, so it can't be from pre amerindian migration period. It must be latter admixture. Right? Anyways M269 doesn't say much on it's own. which subclade of M269?
    Last edited by Ermotimos; 17-10-17 at 18:57.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermotimos View Post
    Ok, thanks. So there are indeed many subclades of R1b. So what is the problem in determining the origin of R1b among the Anishinaabeg and other peoples?
    Testing costs money. Most people don't care enough to get tested themselves. An academic study could do it, but there's a ton of other interesting things that grant money could be spent on.

    BTW if anyone wants to have a look at 10 STR haplotype data from three Chippewa groups for themselves, they can find them in the supplementary data (file 12) for "Asymmetric male and female genetic histories among Native Americans from Eastern North America": https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...lementary-data

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Probably from ANE and Viking settlers if that is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Honestly, I find it quite ridiculous that anybody would still adhere to the LGM Cantabrian refuge origin hypothesis for R1b, because its totally against all the evidence that we do have. The oldest sample of R1b in Europe is from the Kromsdorf site, from circa 2600 to 2500 BC, and there hasn't been a single evidence of R1b from the multitude of Neolithic sites. Indeed, we shouldn't expect one, because the "tree" of R1b suggests that its oldest subclades were located decisively outside of western Europe.

    I think its fairly obvious that this Native American R1b must be of more recent European origin.
    Sequoyah, noted for formulating the Cherokee alphabet, was the son of Nathaniel Gist and Wur-Teh. This would explain some of it. Nathaniel was an R1b kind of guy. It's more recent times, starting in the 1700's I would think.

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    Until they find data otherwise, I steadfastly believe all R1b-M269 in Native Americans was from colonial European contact. Some tribes were very open to mixing blood.

    In the book "Long Knife" by James Alexander Thom, the hero from Virginia, George Rogers Clark, went into the frontier to capture British forts during the American Revolution.

    He won the respect of a large meeting of natives near St. Louis. They sent to him naked women which surprised and embarrassed him. The chiefs explained that he was a great and strong man, and they wanted to bring his blood into their tribe.

    Additionally, early mixing with European men would give the offspring a better immune system for the devastating European diseases wracking the natives. They lost 80% or so from smallpox, cholera, influenza, common cold, etc. Euro genes would be a huge selective bonus for surviving lines.
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    Couldn't this scenario be explained by Viking Age migrations? I suppose R1b/R1a/I1 is what would be expected for a viking colonization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Why is it such a mystery where R1b originated in Native Americans? Couldn't you just look at the subclades of R1b they have? If it were more recent from the colonial, viking era, etc. you would think there would be other european haplogroups and not just R1b.
    Maybe, just maybe, it's sensitive info...



    You're correct though, that is literally all it would take to prove it (you wouldn't be able to disprove it unless you took a huge sample of all Native Americans, but that's only because of the nature of falsifiability). It would be so easy, yet nobody has gone into any detail. The truth is too big to cover up though, someone will do it eventually.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Maybe, just maybe, it's sensitive info...



    You're correct though, that is literally all it would take to prove it (you wouldn't be able to disprove it unless you took a huge sample of all Native Americans, but that's only because of the nature of falsifiability). It would be so easy, yet nobody has gone into any detail. The truth is too big to cover up though, someone will do it eventually.
    There is a guy who is on the "Ancient Aliens" show that got a couple of Paracas Skulls dna tested in Canadian labs.

    They only tested for mtdna and the results he claimed were U2e1, U2e, H1, H, K, H2a, J1b1 (european haplogroups) with the rest being either normal native american groups or no result.

    Normal mtdna haplogroups for Native Americans are A,B,C,D, and X.

    Now, I'm well aware that the probability that these results are legitimate is very very low.

    Either he is a scam artist trying to cash in on money and sell his tours and books. Or he is an incompetent moron who has contaminated the samples. Or a mix of both.

    I was curious when I heard about these tests and checked his videos, and its clear he has not even a basic understanding of genetics. He didn't even understand y-dna vs mtdna and things as basic as this (and of course he was trying to spin his results as being related to aliens somehow).

    His lack of any understanding about even basic dna stuff made it clear that if it was a scam then somebody else must have prepared his DNA results for him, since their "curation" reflected an understanding of archeogenetics and historical context way beyond his own. If it was a contamination then it must have been quite coincidental to have it contaminated by mtdna groups specifically located around the black sea area.

    Nonetheless, if there is even 1% chance that just one of his samples legitimately turned up european mtdna, shouldn't there be immediate interest to confirm one way or another? (Paracas culture preceded the Nazca culture and dates 1250BC - 150BC which means there would be deep pre-colombian trans oceanic contact confirmed)

    At the worst the public deserves a severe debunking of his claims if they are false.

    The guy promoting this thing is interested in the alien aspect and so doesn't quite understand the gravity of having found european mtdna in south america.

    I know that Lazaridis was part of the debunking team that did the DNA analysis of the Atacama "Alien".

    I would love to see something like that for these paracas skulls also.

    Its too frustrating to think that the Paracas skulls could have european mtdna, and that the scientific community is ignoring it because they are the property of some moron who is promoting his ancient aliens theories.
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    @Johane Derite
    An ancient Scottish Native American?
    Could it be?




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Johane Derite
    A Scottish Native American?
    Could it be?


    Omg lol. I don't have any upvotes left but I laughed a lot

    This is so shameful. First he says 100% match with scottish, then he says no Y-dna extracted. Obviously no autosomal was done either. Its just an mtdna result smh what does 100% scottish even mean

    Why haven't any labs or universities DNA tested the paracas culture, jesus christ, why are they all in the possession of ancient aliens people

    I actually saw the "claimed" results here (2:00-3:15):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Omg lol. I don't have any upvotes left but I laughed a lot

    This is so shameful. First he says 100% match with scottish, then he says no Y-dna extracted. Obviously no autosomal was done either. Its just an mtdna result smh what does 100% scottish even mean

    Why haven't any labs or universities DNA tested the paracas culture, jesus christ, why are they all in the possession of ancient aliens people

    I actually saw the "claimed" results here (2:00-3:15):
    Tourist guides tend to make shit up a lot. No wonder there are lots of alium stuff about precolumbian south america in youtube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    If I understand correctly, the Ojibwe are geographically linked to the "Old Copper Complex", and the "Hopewell tradition". Do such linkages also exist for other Native American tribes with elevated percentages of hgs R/X2?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Copper_Complex
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell_tradition
    That's the connection I make too. Unfortunately, it looks like nobody is willing to analyse even the modern SNPs of Ojibwe R1b. I wonder what could be the reason for this.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My daughter is part Ojibwe. Her grandmother is 100% Ojibwe and part of a tribe in northern MN. Many Ojibwe I know here in MN have French names. There has been a lot of intermarriage and mixing the past 250 years or more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matty74 View Post
    My daughter is part Ojibwe. Her grandmother is 100% Ojibwe and part of a tribe in northern MN. Many Ojibwe I know here in MN have French names. There has been a lot of intermarriage and mixing the past 250 years or more.
    STR results show otherwise for Ojibwe R1b (that is 97% M269 may I add), it seems distinct from European R1b. Then also, why only R1b? Someone should just analyse it and be done with it - but nobody has even bothered to. Do you know anybody with Ojibwe paternal ancestry? I could try and get in contact with a smaller lab to analyse his Y DNA, I'd pay for everything

    And yes, in case people haven't figured out already, R1b is my "favourite" haplogroup - but I don't belong to it.

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