Indo-Europianisation

[Alan]

Is it correct to assume, that since J's Haplogroup that was already in the area and absorbed the new comers (E-M123) language, it must have been a more superior culture, or stronger army? (if they conquered by war that is) This invasion/immigration was a few hundred years prior to the unification of Classical Egypt with the building of the great pyramids and temples if not mistaken.

Egyptians were not Semites, but they are the closest you get to Semites outside the Semite group. Berbers, ancient Egyptians, Semites and ancient Cushites belong to the Afro_Asiatic family. The Afro-Asiatic family formed somewhere Northeast Africa with neolithic farmers from the Middle East (who spred E1b1b* with them) reached North Africa.

 

[Maleth]

E* as a whole is allot older in Western Asia than the Semite family, thats true. It is a farmer Haplogroup and was spred to North Africa with farmers. But than when Afro_Asiatic speakers evolved allot of the E-m123 subclade was spred back to Western Asia by the Semites. E-V13 for example has not much to do with Semites.

This is interesting, however if E-V13 stems from E78 in north east Africa, it must have also carried a semetic language (as the Berber mutation that moved the other way) However I presume that if we do not know what language the J's spoke it will difficult to confirm what the E-V13 spoke at the time of entry in the middle east. It would be more complicated if the theory of island hoping occurred to the south of Europe. E-V13 language (whatever it was) must have been lost and took over other languages in the areas.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Egyptians were not Semites, but they are the closest you get to Semites outside the Semite group. Berbers, ancient Egyptians, Semites and ancient Cushites belong to the Afro_Asiatic family. The Afro-Asiatic family formed somewhere Northeast Africa with neolithic farmers from the Middle East (who spred E1b1b* with them) reached North Africa.

hard to tell what Egyptians were
Egypt was united 5100 year ago
maybe E-M123 was ousted by the Egyptians

E was allready in Africa , speaking Afro-Asiatic languages
R1b-V88 and T entered Africa with catlle
later Asian farmers entered ( i think J2 - you think G2a or J1 ?)
all this prior to the unification of Egypt

Egyptians must have been a mix
what language spoke the earliest Egyptians?

 

[Yetos]

E* as a whole is allot older in Western Asia than the Semite family, thats true. It is a farmer Haplogroup and was spred to North Africa with farmers. But than when Afro_Asiatic speakers evolved allot of the E-m123 subclade was spred back to Western Asia by the Semites. E-V13 for example has not much to do with Semites.

my believe is that E was not even in Levant when Summerian where at its peak,
have you heard a scientific report claim that was? or assumptions that most share?

 

[Yetos]

Egyptians were not Semites, but they are the closest you get to Semites outside the Semite group. Berbers, ancient Egyptians, Semites and ancient Cushites belong to the Afro_Asiatic family. The Afro-Asiatic family formed somewhere Northeast Africa with neolithic farmers from the Middle East (who spred E1b1b* with them) reached North Africa.

the existance of R1b in Egypt shows enough, also some balkanic customs that imported to Egypt,
I know about some berber tribes, in Riffians you can find even R1a (another story)
so you suggest that was present in Sumerrians and went back to Africa and again return to Asia?

if so then we go back, in that case is the strange theory that both Semitic and IE are kaukasian languages, an hypothesis which has quite enough supporters and J was the original speaker, while E could spoke some East African language like Shuahilli?

 

[LeBrok]

my believe is that E was not even in Levant when Summerian where at its peak,
have you heard a scientific report claim that was? or assumptions that most share?

It would mean that E entered Europe later than 2,000 BCE. How do you explain so even and deep penetration of Europe by E clades?

In contrast J1 had a late entry. Much later than hg E. The concentration is very spotty.

This simple logic of coverage is based on speculation that paternal haplogroups are being fairly equal in competition. However there is some statistical evidence that some haplogroups are more fertile than others. In this regard I might be wrong in my supposition.

 

[Alan]

hard to tell what Egyptians were
Egypt was united 5100 year ago
maybe E-M123 was ousted by the Egyptians

E was allready in Africa , speaking Afro-Asiatic languages
R1b-V88 and T entered Africa with catlle
later Asian farmers entered ( i think J2 - you think G2a or J1 ?)
all this prior to the unification of Egypt

Egyptians must have been a mix
what language spoke the earliest Egyptians?

No I believe that some specific subclades of E*(especially the E1b1b group) is the result of back migration from Western Asia. I believe G2a and E1b are the first farmers while J1 and J2 are herders(both agriculture techniques).

earliest Egyptians spoke the Egyptian language which was part of the Afro-Asiatic familly and closest to Semitic.

 

[Alan]

the existance of R1b in Egypt shows enough, also some balkanic customs that imported to Egypt,
I know about some berber tribes, in Riffians you can find even R1a (another story)
so you suggest that was present in Sumerrians and went back to Africa and again return to Asia?

if so then we go back, in that case is the strange theory that both Semitic and IE are kaukasian languages, an hypothesis which has quite enough supporters and J was the original speaker, while E could spoke some East African language like Shuahilli?

No I never said R1a backmigrated to Western Asia.

Good that you mentioned R1b. The thing is some of R1b was probably part of the farmer expansion (see Bell Beakers).

R1a in North Africa is definitely from the anciant Alans.

I believe that most of J2/J1 was a second wave of migration from Western Asia into North Africa. Probably arriving with herders. When Egypt rised the population was predominantly E1b1b* and R1b-V88?(farmers) with allot of J2,J1(herders).

 

[John Doe]

No I never said R1a backmigrated to Western Asia.

Good that you mentioned R1b. The thing is some of R1b was probably part of the farmer expansion (see Bell Beakers).

R1a in North Africa is definitely from the anciant Alans.

I believe that most of J2/J1 was a second wave of migration from Western Asia into North Africa. Probably arriving with herders. When Egypt rised the population was predominantly E1b1b* and R1b-V88?(farmers) with allot of J2,J1(herders).

What does E-M35.1 represent? And is it possible I belong to a more specific branch? I only tested with 23andme and they don't do deep subclade tests, I'm planning to test with FTDNA who do that kind of testing.

 

[Maleth]

It would mean that E entered Europe later than 2,000 BCE. How do you explain so even and deep penetration of Europe by E clades?

What about the Natufians? Early Natufian (12,500–10,800 BC) and Late Natufian (10,800–9500 BC). I came across this article. Anyone knows how reliable this is? or again its just an assumption.

(quote)Interestingly, their genetic legacy in the near East seems to be a male contribution (v13), but no L Mt Lineages came out of Africa to accompany it.(end quote)

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/the-natufians/

Wasn't the oldest e-v13 found in Iberia with G2a 7000 years old?

Any thoughts about this?

 

[Maleth]

What does E-M35.1 represent? And is it possible I belong to a more specific branch? I only tested with 23andme and they don't do deep subclade tests, I'm planning to test with FTDNA who do that kind of testing.

John you could belong to any of these. Only by testing you can find out.

Y-DNA Haplogroup E-M35 and its subclades
E1b1b1 M35+
E1b1b1* = M35+*
E1b1b1a = M78+
E1b1b1a = M78+* Vneg
E1b1b1a1 = M78+V12+
E1b1b1a2 = M78+V13+ (common in South Balkans)
E1b1b1a3 = M78+V22+
E1b1b1a4 = M78+V65+
E1b1b1b = M81+M183+ (common with Berbers)
E1b1b1c* = M123+*
E1b1b1c1 = M123+M34+
E1b1b1
E1b1b1a
E1b1b1b
E1b1b1c1

Only with a deep clade test you can find out. I am not too sure which is the most common subclade amoungst AJ (that has been discussed a great deal on this forum I think). Chances are you belong to it. However if not mistaken there are a number of different haplogroups within Jewish communities. Testing could keep your story in motion.

 

[John Doe]

John you could belong to any of these. Only by testing you can find out.

Y-DNA Haplogroup E-M35 and its subclades
E1b1b1 M35+
E1b1b1* = M35+*
E1b1b1a = M78+
E1b1b1a = M78+* Vneg
E1b1b1a1 = M78+V12+
E1b1b1a2 = M78+V13+ (common in South Balkans)
E1b1b1a3 = M78+V22+
E1b1b1a4 = M78+V65+
E1b1b1b = M81+M183+ (common with Berbers)
E1b1b1c* = M123+*
E1b1b1c1 = M123+M34+
E1b1b1
E1b1b1a
E1b1b1b
E1b1b1c1

Only with a deep clade test you can find out. I am not too sure which is the most common subclade amoungst AJ (that has been discussed a great deal on this forum I think). Chances are you belong to it. However if not mistaken there are a number of different haplogroups within Jewish communities. Testing could keep your story in motion.

Alright thanks.

 

[LeBrok]

What about the Natufians? Early Natufian (12,500–10,800 BC) and Late Natufian (10,800–9500 BC). I came across this article. Anyone knows how reliable this is? or again its just an assumption.

(quote)Interestingly, their genetic legacy in the near East seems to be a male contribution (v13), but no L Mt Lineages came out of Africa to accompany it.(end quote)

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/the-natufians/

Wasn't the oldest e-v13 found in Iberia with G2a 7000 years old?

Any thoughts about this?

IIRC I was reading Jewish archaeologists article stating that very early Natufians (17,000 BC) already harvesting variety of wild grasses. I fantasized that they were Hg E, and possibly entered Europe right after Ice Age. Not full farmers yet, but only "Harvesters" with most of diet coming from wild wheat. The intermittent stage on the way to become farmers.
Having said that I never heard about their DNA being sequenced. If they are V13 then I will be ecstatic!

Next wave, the fully fledged farmers were mostly G2a, most likely mixture of E and G from Near East.

 

[Maleth]

I never heard about their DNA being sequenced. If they are V13 then I will be ecstatic!

My same thoughts. Probably the V13 mutation would have not occurred yet. Its just when you read comments like that on the provided blog link, makes you wonder how they come to those conclusions. Probably there must be some kind of study, since skeletons were found all over the area, but not easy to get hold of any (detailed) information.