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Thread: Serb with I1

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    As far as I can see the M227 in the Serbian project are only predicted, and due to the small amount of tested markers could be some other branch as I1 is prone to homoplasmy. For example, there is a 12 markers Ivanovich in the Serbian project under M227, who is an exact match to the Bulgarian E8047. However, the Bulgarian has an extensive SNP testing and is proven M227-, in fact he is Z58+, Z59-, Z139+, A6397+ Ser 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29 Bul 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29
    That's true, but I also have an exact match on 19 markers with a person from Croatia who is proven M227+, so it's very likely that I am M227.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    There are 8 people which are I1-M227 at "Serbian DNA project" Ђенадић (Đenadić) - Aleksandrovac/central Serbia Остојић (Ostojić) - Takovo/Šumadija/central Serbia Миленковић (Milenković) - Kuršumlija/central Serbia Драча (Drača) - Benkovac/Dalmatia Крунић (Krunić) - Valjevo/western Serbia Бојовић (Bojović) - Tutin/southwestern Serbia Ивановић (Ivanović) - Zvornik/eastern Bosnia Живковић (Živković) - Šabac/northwestern Serbia Look here https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedi...?grp-filter=I1 The total number of I1 at "Serbian DNA project" is 146 and 8 is M227, which means that M227 is 5,5% of Serbian I1.
    I am one of those with the result on 23 markers. With all of them I have a genetic distance of no more than 2 on 23, or with others an exact match on 12 markers. There is also Duraković - Prijepolje/southwestern Serbia (genetic distance of 2 on 23, "Bosnian DNK project"), and one person from Bosnia and Herzegovina only with his first name Ivan (an exact match on 12 markers, found on some ftdna projects). I heard that there is Končar - Končarev kraj/Lika/Croatia who is M227+ from 23andMe. I would like to contact him, Ivan (kit no. 314690) and M227+ person from Croatia (kit no. 41100), but I don't know how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    As far as I can see the M227 in the Serbian project are only predicted, and due to the small amount of tested markers could be some other branch as I1 is prone to homoplasmy. For example, there is a 12 markers Ivanovich in the Serbian project under M227, who is an exact match to the Bulgarian E8047. However, the Bulgarian has an extensive SNP testing and is proven M227-, in fact he is Z58+, Z59-, Z139+, A6397+ Ser 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29 Bul 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29
    That's true, but I also have match on 19 markers with a person from Croatia who is proven M227+, so it's very likely that I am M227 also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    There are 8 people which are I1-M227 at "Serbian DNA project" Ђенадић (Đenadić) - Aleksandrovac/central Serbia Остојић (Ostojić) - Takovo/Šumadija/central Serbia Миленковић (Milenković) - Kuršumlija/central Serbia Драча (Drača) - Benkovac/Dalmatia Крунић (Krunić) - Valjevo/western Serbia Бојовић (Bojović) - Tutin/southwestern Serbia Ивановић (Ivanović) - Zvornik/eastern Bosnia Живковић (Živković) - Šabac/northwestern Serbia
    I am one of them (with 23 markers). There are also Duraković - Prijepolje/southwestern Serbia (21/23 match, "Bosnian DNA project"), one person from Bosnia and Herzegovina with only his first name Ivan (12/12 match, ftdna kit no. 314690) and Končar - Končarev kraj/Lika who is M227+ from 23andMe.
    I would like to contact Ivan, Končar and the M227+ person from Croatia (ftdna kit no. 41100) but I don't know how.
    Last edited by n1tr0dr; 20-12-17 at 22:39.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Almost all Serbian I1 are Z63 and P109.

    Z63 come with Goths and Gepids in 5th and 6th century, and P109 is from Normans which tried to conquer Balkan in the late 11th century led by Robert Guiscard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert...the_Byzantines
    Really? Ostrogoths were East Germanic that is Baltic, East Germanics are in some East and South Germans if anything and maybe Central Europeans..

    I numbers are just usually Paleolithic. During SNP results to determine haplogroups they will give you your own person subclade this is how a test result should go like

    I-S2361: Your Genetic Signature

    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7)]This is your Y chromosome genetic signature: a list of all the markers from the chromo2 chip for which you are positive, that is where you differ from Y chromosome Adam. A plus sign indicates that you carry the marker, or as geneticists say you are derived for that marker, e.g. S190+. Markers are named with a letter followed by the number of the marker. The letter is usually one of M, S or P: M is for markers, S is for SNP (the scientific name of the kind of marker being tested) and P is for polymorphism, another word for marker. Other prefixes include the initials of the discoverer (e.g. CTS or PF). If you do not carry the marker it is not listed in your signature, but can be found in the raw data file. In a few cases a marker might arise, for example, by the DNA letter A changing to C, then much later in time in someone with the C it changes back to an A again; this is called back-mutation. One such example is the marker S163: if you carry the ancestral A it is not shown in your signature. If you carry the C, it would be shown as S163(+) and if you carry the back-mutated A, it is shown as S163!. We can tell the back-mutations from the ancestral variants using the other markers you carry.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7)]>CTS10100+, CTS11150+, CTS11575+, CTS11976+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS12861+, CTS2254+, CTS2392+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS3315+, CTS3326+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS3859+, CTS3918+, CTS4293+, CTS4568+, CTS4740+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS5650+, CTS616+, CTS6327+, CTS6331+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6433+, CTS6445+, CTS674+, CTS7301+, CTS7593+, CTS7762+, CTS7922+, CTS8449+, CTS8876+, CTS9139+, CTS9183+, CTS9482+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, CTS9782+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1198+, L1220+, L132+, L181+, L34+, L352+, L35+, L37+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L59+, L604+, L800+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M223+, M235+, M258+, M294+, M299+, M429+, M42+, M523+, P123+, P126+, P127+, P129+, P130+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P212+, P305+, PAGE081+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2640+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF3528+, PF3553+, PF3644+, PF3649+, PF3654+, PF3706+, PF3739+, PF3753+, PF3787+, PF3807+, PF3819+, PF626+, PF643+, PF653+, PF679+, PF6895+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S10441+, S10459+, S11022+, S11330(+), S117+, S118+, S119+, S120+, S12350+, S12547(+), S138+, S14170+, S1572+, S163(+), S1984!, S19862(+), S2006+, S20315+, S2357+, S2358+, S2360+, S2361+, S2363+, S2365+, S2367+, S2368+, S2369+, S2371+, S2378+, S2380+, S2381+, S2384+, S2385+, S238+, S2390+, S2412+, S2425+, S2441+, S24436+, S2445+, S2450+, S2452+, S2456+, S2458+, S2465+, S2471+, S2472+, S2476+, S2478+, S2479+, S24+, S30+, S31+, S32+, S330+, S33+, S390+, S4888!, S5810+, S5817+, S5818+, S5874+, S5875+, S5878+, S5893+, S6378+, S6459+, S6469+, S6498+, S6517+, S6520+, S6527+, S6528+, S8111+, S8235+, S884+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V218+, V221+, V226+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC1297+, YSC1311+, Z161+, Z162+, Z164+, Z169+, Z175+, Z179+, Z183+[/COLOR]

  4. #54
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    So if that's true some Serbians and Croatians are getting a tad confused they're not Viking descendants they're Baltid ones lol these ones with I numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Maybe I1* came from the Balkans(Late Paleolithic) and spread northward to Scandinavia during the Mesolithic(or later) when it became inhabitable. After all, there is still a lot of similarities between Nordids and Dinarids physically.
    Yes that's easily possible, exactly thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Which is the percentage of I1 in Bulgaria or among Bulgarians, and which branches are common?
    Officially I1 is around 4% among Bulgarians. It seems the most common branches are under Z58, or the old Anglo-Saxon assignment. They are common also among Bulgarian Turks. However we have many P109 and Z63, too. According to me the P109 may have some North Western Bulgarian connection, while the Z63 - Macedonian. Current haplogroup distribution among Bulgarians is not very indicative where the forefathers came from due to the constant migrations in Ottoman times and refugee resettlements after the Balkan wars.
    SNP M227 was discovered early in haplogroup I1 history, but it was rare in commercial databases as predominantly Westerners tested. So it may really be not so exotic among Serbs, if there are several proven, there could be more.
    The Bulgarian DNA project helped solve the classification another early discovered SNP- P259, which at one time was decided to be private and removed from the tree. Later it was proven to be among the Roma/Gypsy founding lineages and some Bulgarians and ex-Yugoslavians have it, too.
    After a Bulgarian Roma was sponsored for the Big Y test, it was discovered he is I-Z141, but negative to all branches below. Where exactly P259 stand on the tree is still unknown, though. Obviously it was a private SNP once, but spread due to the large founder effect among Roma.

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    Can you guys help me with my GED match results

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    Thank you for the Bulgarian info. Of the 4% who are I1, do you have a breakdown of how many are Z63, Z58, etc?

    Do you know which branches of Z63 are the most common?

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    Quote Originally Posted by despot View Post
    thanks guys, these are my final results from 23andm me anyways:


















    99.8%

    European



    Southern European

    65.8% Balkan



    0.5% Italian



    8.1% Broadly Southern European






    16.3% Eastern European





    Northern European

    0.1% French & German



    3.9% Broadly Northern European





    5.1% Broadly European






    0.2% East Asian & Native American
    Did you do GED match? Try that

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    Origin of Serbian I1-Z63 is still unclear. Maybe came with Slavs, maybe with Goths or Gepids.

    Serbian I1-P109 is from Normans whithout doubt.
    All Serbian P109 are from Drobnjaci tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci
    Serbian holders of P109 from Drobnaci tribe are close to some Sicilian guy who is P109, they are around 900-950 years genetically distant from him.
    Which means that Sicilians guy and Serbian holders of P109 are descendant of Normans which settled in Sicily and southern Italy and in the late 11th century they tried to invade Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Origin of Serbian I1-Z63 is still unclear. Maybe came with Slavs, maybe with Goths or Gepids.

    Serbian I1-P109 is from Normans whithout doubt.
    All Serbian P109 are from Drobnjaci tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci
    Serbian holders of P109 from Drobnaci tribe are close to some Sicilian guy who is P109, they are around 900-950 years genetically distant from him.
    Which means that Sicilians guy and Serbian holders of P109 are descendant of Normans which settled in Sicily and southern Italy and in the late 11th century they tried to invade Balkans.
    Have you tried GED match Bachus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Have you tried GED match Bachus?
    I did not tested autosomally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Was your main MT haplogroup U4 or U5 or H or H1?

    Usually the main Balkan haplogroup is H for women
    I know just my Y DNA for now.

    Yes, in the Balkans the most common mt DNA is H (but also in whole Europe), in Serbia is 41% https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...requency.shtml

    You have some Balkan ancestrors, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Thank you for the Bulgarian info. Of the 4% who are I1, do you have a breakdown of how many are Z63, Z58, etc?

    Do you know which branches of Z63 are the most common?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    Unfortunately we don't have an official breakdown of haplogroup I1, my estimates are from FTDNA and some other testing. For now nobody under Z63 has done a deeper SNP test, but I suppose they must be from the popular branches as they have matches at 37 markers. Sometimes Bulgarians even with the most popular I2a-Dinaric have no matches at any level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serbian I1-P109 is from Normans whithout doubt.
    Not for me. I have a great doubt regarding your statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Not for me. I have a great doubt regarding your statement.
    Why?

    Have you heard Jovica Krtinić when he talked about Norman origin of Drobnjaci (I1-P109)?
    Last edited by Bachus; 22-12-17 at 04:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Why?Have you heard Jovica Krtinić when he talked about Norman origin of Drobnjaci (I1-P109)?
    Yes I've heard him. However, I do not remember any convincing argument which would indisputably support connection between the Balkan I-P109 and Normans. The only thing I agree is that their ancestor came from the Northern Europe.

    To be precise we are talking about the I-FGC22045 subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Yes I've heard him. However, I do not remember any convincing argument which would indisputably support connection between the Balkan I-P109 and Normans. The only thing I agree is that their ancestor came from the Northern Europe.

    To be precise we are talking about the I-FGC22045 subclade.
    What is your opinion about origin of Balkan I1-P109?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Other than DYS 455=8 for indicating M253, the STR values are extremely difficult for predicting SNPs. Even in the Z63 project the values are all over the place.

    If an Ancestry.com or 23andMe test has been performed, you can get more specific SNP results than the companies will reveal.

    I wonder if the Serbian results match the ancient Wielbark samples.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    What is your opinion about origin of Balkan I1-P109?
    I believe I-FGC22045 came to the Balkans between 350 and 650 AD. It could've come with some of the East Germanic tribes, but it could've also come with the Slavs. The point is I believe it went through a continental route. And my main argument is that its closest "brother" clade I-FGC22046(xFGC22045) is today found in Sweden and Bulgaria. Sweden and Bulgaria were not on the way Normans were passing at the time of their expansion.

    Finally none of the I-FGC22046 results are today found in any of the regions Normans had under their control.

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    deleted post
    Last edited by Zvrk9; 06-01-18 at 08:54.

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    Haplogroup I1 is 8,4% among Serbs.

    On the "Serbian DNA project" there is a total 1742 samples and I1 is 146 which is 8,4% https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedi...1&lang=lat

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    Hi Bachus, could that be due to the higher testing/activity by Macura and Drobnjak family groups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvrk9 View Post
    Hi Bachus, could that be due to the higher testing/activity by Macura and Drobnjak family groups?
    Maybe partly, but without regard to it I1 is higher among Serbs than among other Balkan nations.

    Majority of Serbian I1 came from Drobnjaci and Macura clans, but there are others subclades among Serbs except Z63 an P109, and those are M227 and M253.

    Not all Serbian I1-P109 is from Drobnjaci and not all Serbian I1-Z63 is from Macure, but majority it is.

    Many families from different regions with different surnames found out that they are close to Macure or Drobnjaci, because Macure and Drobnjaci migrated from Montenegro and Dalmatia for centuries.
    Even among Croats, Bosnian and Sanžak Muslims exist subclades of Drobnjaci and Macure, because many Orthodox Serbs in the past were convert to Islam and Catholicism.

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    Are there any Y-DNA origins established for pockets of I1-M227 among Serbian population tested? Tha Macura map seams to establish the pocket concentrations for I1.
    I see in some forums talk about Saxon Miners in the area of Kopaonik, Bor and the mountains of West Bulgaria, but that is not aligning with the Macura I1 map hot spots (Prijepolje, Valjevo-Kragujevac-Uzice triangle and Lika for example). Also, I did not see any reference to the specific Saxon miners' haplogroups if I1. I am probably not very well informed on this.

    I see now that Bachus stating conformation of P109 with Sicily testing. The theory of Normans (Normandy Vikings) in south Adriatic 1081-2, 1984-5 the south of Scadar Lake leaves a lot of questions. What is the connection between south Adriatic coast and today's Prijepolje (Drobnaci concentration)? Did anyone try to find any further explanation? Is a few years in the 1080s a sufficient time for this transformation?

    Since P109 is common in Rusia, Poland and Sweden from same Viking source, isn't it more logical it arrived in Balkans from the North-East? Austro-Turkish and Rusia-Turkish wars of 1780s were a much more significant event and not that far from today's concentrashen of Serbian Drobnjak P109. The Bulgarian, Serbes and Romanians altogether fought Ottomans as I understand the history. After that, and the Great Plague of 1738 there was a significant move of populations.
    Last edited by Zvrk9; 06-01-18 at 22:37. Reason: corrections

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