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Thread: Serb with I1

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    @Zvrk9

    Regions where Saxon miners were settled are not sufficiently tested, that regions are Kosovo, area around Kopaonik and northeastern Macedonia.
    There is few people from Kosovo and Kopaonik who are probably descendants of Saxons and they have R1b-U106 and I2-M223 haplogroups.
    Recently around 300 Serbs from Kosovo was tested and results will come out for the few months, then it will be cleaner about descandants of Saxons among Serbs, maybe some I1 of Saxon origin will appear.

    Until now it seems that there is no I1 of Saxons origin among Serbs, and it semms that all Serbian I1 is from Normans or Goths and others eastern Germanic tribes.
    Drobnjak cluster of I1-P109 is probably from Normans which tried to conquered southern/central Balkans 1081-1085 led by Robert Guiscard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert...the_Byzantines
    Some guy from Sicily who is I1-P109 and Drobnjaci have common ancestor by male line from 900 years ago. That is very solid proof for Norman origin of Drobnjak I1-P109, because Normans tried to invade the Balkans from Sicily and southern Italy, they were present in Sicily since 1038.
    A lot of Drobnjaks were settled in Prijepolje in the past, and because of that 1/4 of male population of Prijepolje are I1-P109.

    Macura cluster of I1-Z63 probably came to Balkans with Goths in 5th century macure.net/en/Home#Istorija_BalkanPeninsula

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    Sorry Bachus, I was making changes as you were responding. I was editing as I realized some questions were already answered.

    Since P109 is common in Rusia, Poland, and Sweden, assuming from the same P109 Viking source, isn't it more logical it arrived in Balkans from the North-East? Austro-Turkish and Rusia-Turkish wars of 1780s were a more significant event and not that far from today's concentration of Serbian Drobnjak P109. The Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and Romanians altogether fought Ottomans as I understand the history. After that, and the Great Plague of 1738 there was a significant move of populations. This is the time of formation of the Military Frontier with Ottomans and many migrations.

    Yes, Normans were in Sicily and Northern Italy earlier but no evidence of any significant presence in Adriatic earlier or for an extended time. I can't attach web links yet, when you get a chance try on Wikipedia Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy. Yes, same link as yours.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Easy explanation is from regular contact with the I1 in Wielbark of Poland circa 300-900 AD, plus Visigoth migrations.

    Z63 and P109 both should have been spread from Visigoths.

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    ........................

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    Back to topic.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The Macura clan also matches the Shrkeli clan on SNPs.

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    Very interesting. Could you tell us more I1a3 Young? Is match all the way to 2659472 (Y 16434)?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvrk9 View Post
    Very interesting. Could you tell us more I1a3 Young? Is match all the way to 2659472 (Y 16434)?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

    Can you check if that is the same Macura bunch as from the Serbian project? See image

    Looks like the last number of the Shrkeli is an 8 instead of a 4. Seems close though, a distant relation.

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    Two Macura clan members were tested at FTDNA and if I remember earlier comments correctly, they are also in Poreklo.

    I typed Shkreli in Google and I can only see Martin Shkreli. Not a very good time to be related to him if he is in this clan. http://fortune.com/2017/09/14/martin-shkreli-jail/

    Here is the Poreklo data for Macura.
    Attachment 9614

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    Bachus, Garrick, Shetop, Wonomyro or others who viewed Poreklo data ... for Z63 groups above Macura's, what is the meaning of "Z63 Opsti rod B" and "Z63 Opsti rod V". Is there equivalent branch number in FTDNA or Yfull? Thanks.

    http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedin...er=I1&lang=lat

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    As i know I1-Z63 is absent in Scandinavia,the speculation that this clade is "Gothic" east Germanic and so on make no sense.Above all history tell as that Goths originated there.

    Contrary to everything oldest I1 was found in Hungary Neolithic as a farmer not in Scandinavia.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 11-01-18 at 11:24.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Milan's opinion is probably the most realistic. If an Albanian is the closest relative than it is very likely that the subclade was in the region before Great Migrations. IMO the Roman refugees from Panonia, Dalmatia escaped mostly to present day Albania, Grece and Italy as a result of Avar conquest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvrk9 View Post
    Bachus, Garrick, Shetop, Wonomyro or others who viewed Poreklo data ... for Z63 groups above Macura's, what is the meaning of "Z63 Opsti rod B" and "Z63 Opsti rod V". Is there equivalent branch number in FTDNA or Yfull? Thanks.

    http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedin...er=I1&lang=lat
    I'm not sure what that means, but I'II try to find out.


    This is an traditional meeting of Macura clan in Belgrade, all people on this clip are from Macura which means that all men are I1-Z63.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I1-Z63 appears to be widely distributed inside Europe and reaching into Asia. The FTDNA y-DNA data shows it is also in Scandinavia. I1a3 Young probably knows more about it since he provided Z63 map in the opening post of Main branch maps by FTDNA


    Macura clan has its own website in English (among other languages) and provides a lot of information on their research of origin. They are clearly believing to be connected to one of the Gothic migrations and in Balkans before Slavic migration. They use some of the engraved thumb stones of earlier Macura locations in Northern Montenegro. That is the area relatively close to the Serbian border. For some reason, that site (Macura.net ) is down today.

    Here is the website that appears to be linked to Croatian links about some of the tribes in that general area. It is interesting that Macura had several different names including Srbljaci. I do not want to go to ethnicity discussions. https://translate.google.com/transla...oj&prev=search

    I just looked the 2 levels further on Z63 (finer branches of the tree), some of them are still very widely distributed geographically. Would that indicate a lot of migration in the more recent times?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What some Macura's believe is totally irelevant to where this clade originate and it's distribution.Yes I1-Z63 is found all over Europe,but that doesn't mean that it's origin is in Scandinavia,there another clade dominate.
    If Goths migrated from Scandinavia to Central Europe then to Balkans,we will find the Scandinavian clade to be predominant in this groups and not I1-Z63,very simple.
    If I2 or I2a din is most frequent in Herzegovina doesn't mean the haplogroup or the clade originate there,Nordic countries aren't exception.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 11-01-18 at 16:59.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    As i know I1-Z63 is absent in Scandinavia,the speculation that this clade is "Gothic" east Germanic and so on make no sense.Above all history tell as that Goths originated there.

    Contrary to everything oldest I1 was found in Hungary Neolithic as a farmer not in Scandinavia.
    It's not absent in Scandinavia. There are small amounts of Z63 in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and even Volga area Russia. These are almost all S2078+ and L1237+

    The Goths clearly carried Z63 but it was present in all Germanic tribes pre-migration. In the UK, Z63 areas are heaviest in Saxon kingdom areas of old England. Z63 is found in good numbers in Belgium and the Netherlands. It would not surprise me if some Franks carried it as well.

    BY351 has a grouping that is clearly Iberian but also very closely to the "Yorkshire" group which matches a test from Sweden. This means that the Goths that migrated eventually to Iberia had common ties with Vikings who brought it to Jorvik (York).

    As far as I can tell all branches of I1 were blended around in the Germanic tribes for a couple thousand years. L22 clearly had a founder effect in repoplulating South Sweden and northwards. L22 is also found everywhere, just not in the high concentrations as the northern areas.

    Figuring out the exact branches of Z63 or any I1 branch within the Germanic tribes is very tough.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zvrk9 View Post
    I1-Z63 appears to be widely distributed inside Europe and reaching into Asia. The FTDNA y-DNA data shows it is also in Scandinavia. I1a3 Young probably knows more about it since he provided Z63 map in the opening post of Main branch maps by FTDNA


    Macura clan has its own website in English (among other languages) and provides a lot of information on their research of origin. They are clearly believing to be connected to one of the Gothic migrations and in Balkans before Slavic migration. They use some of the engraved thumb stones of earlier Macura locations in Northern Montenegro. That is the area relatively close to the Serbian border. For some reason, that site (Macura.net ) is down today.

    Here is the website that appears to be linked to Croatian links about some of the tribes in that general area. It is interesting that Macura had several different names including Srbljaci. I do not want to go to ethnicity discussions. https://translate.google.com/transla...oj&prev=search

    I just looked the 2 levels further on Z63 (finer branches of the tree), some of them are still very widely distributed geographically. Would that indicate a lot of migration in the more recent times?
    Macura clan once lived in northern Montenegro, they were part of Srbljaci.
    Srbljaci were group composed of several clans, and Macure were one of them.
    Srbljaci were farmers in the Lim valley, they were named Srbljaci by Vasojevići clan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasojevići. Vasojevići were sheperds.
    Some historians think that Vasojevići named farmer from Lim valley Srbljaci because Vasojevići were Vlachs and they speak different language than Srbljaci. Srbljaci derivated from Serbs. In Serbian language Serbs is Srbi, and Srbljaci is version of Srbi (Serbs).

    Vasojevići were stronger and aggressive and steal the land and women from Srbljaci.
    Vasojevići were made some kind of apartheid against Srbljaci. Because of that vast majority of Srbljaci moved out from Lim valley, and minority of them were assimilate by Vasojevići, that happened in second half of 15th century. Majority of Macure migrated from Lim valley to Dalmatia, and some of them were probably assimilated by Vasojevići. Macure left Lim valley about 550 years ago, but many toponyms which associate on Macure still exist in Lim valley.

    Macure are probably remains og Goths which settled near Lake Skadar in 5th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Skadar
    There are historical sources that Goths settled near Lake Skadar and Lake Skadar is not far away from Lim valley where Macure lived until 15th century.

    There is also theory that Macure are related Masurians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macure

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    It's not absent in Scandinavia. There are small amounts of Z63 in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and even Volga area Russia. These are almost all S2078+ and L1237+

    The Goths clearly carried Z63 but it was present in all Germanic tribes pre-migration. In the UK, Z63 areas are heaviest in Saxon kingdom areas of old England. Z63 is found in good numbers in Belgium and the Netherlands. It would not surprise me if some Franks carried it as well.

    BY351 has a grouping that is clearly Iberian but also very closely to the "Yorkshire" group which matches a test from Sweden. This means that the Goths that migrated eventually to Iberia had common ties with Vikings who brought it to Jorvik (York).

    As far as I can tell all branches of I1 were blended around in the Germanic tribes for a couple thousand years. L22 clearly had a founder effect in repoplulating South Sweden and northwards. L22 is also found everywhere, just not in the high concentrations as the northern areas.

    Figuring out the exact branches of Z63 or any I1 branch within the Germanic tribes is very tough.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    I1 was not "Germanic" branch,it was hunter gatherer probably,we found I1 in Neolitic Hungary,nothing Germanic here.
    Yes nowadays I1 is the most frequent in Germanic countries,but I1-Z63 clade is found all over Europe that's a difference.
    If the Goths came from Scandinavia as I1 carriers,we should see this amount of the norse branch of I1 and not of I1-Z63 which is almost absent there,isn't this obvious.

    All right but Saxons and Goths are people with totally different history,we should talk separate about this people,Just like we found some branches of I2a din only among north Slavs and not among Southern,or we found I2 from Sardinia to Malta,Crete,Kurdistan.Well nothing Slavic about this haplogroup! we can talk about this to certain degree only for some clades.

    Figuring out the exact branches of Z63 or any I1 branch within the Germanic tribes is very tough.
    Here i agree but I1-Z63 might not be Germanic,but Germanized much like it was Slavicized,Romanized etc,could be a old wandering farmer lineage around Europe,ending up in many countries and peoples.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    I1 was not "Germanic" branch,it was hunter gatherer probably,we found I1 in Neolitic Hungary,nothing Germanic here.
    Yes nowadays I1 is the most frequent in Germanic countries,but I1-Z63 clade is found all over Europe that's a difference.
    If the Goths came from Scandinavia as I1 carriers,we should see this amount of the norse branch of I1 and not of I1-Z63 which is almost absent there,isn't this obvious.

    All right but Saxons and Goths are people with totally different history,we should talk separate about this people,Just like we found some branches of I2a din only among north Slavs and not among Southern,or we found I2 from Sardinia to Malta,Crete,Kurdistan.Well nothing Slavic about this haplogroup! we can talk about this to certain degree only for some clades.


    Here i agree but I1-Z63 might not be Germanic,but Germanized much like it was Slavicized,Romanized etc,could be a old wandering farmer lineage around Europe,ending up in many countries and peoples.
    Around 99% of I1 is DF29+ which is very clearly of Germanic origin about 2650 BC (4600 YBP).

    The origins of I1 are unclear at this point. The single BAB5 sample from the LBKT culture is the first found. The next are Angmöllen Sweden. One sample can only be used for speculation because anything is possible.

    SF11 found on the island of Götland was a historical side branch, only positive for 7 and negative for 10 modern I1 SNPs. SF11 lived about the same time as BAB5. That is a wide distance for what may have been sporadic I* branches, of which only I1 survived.

    Even the distribution of DF29- men appears to have Germanic origins.

    Now, some people may take offense to my use of "German" and Scandinavian. These are almost the same people in an ancient context. West and South Germans ended up with more Celtic influence.

    What I really mean by "Germanic" in the context of modern I1 is probably northern Germanic and Scandinavian, with hardly a line between them.

    The climate in Scandinavia is much more sensitive to changes. A cold snap of a few years could cause most people to vacate large areas due to crop failures. There may not be much Visigothic Y-DNA left because many of them migrated in the large group.

    There is no way the Goths were only across the water, unless they only picked up tribes with Z63 as they moved farther.

    I will post some cool maps when my computer is repaired and I have more time.

    The old German tribes were always combing, splitting, and fighting. That is why they all carried all branches of I1, in addition to a probable common heritage to begin with.

    The Anglo-Saxon migrations to England also included Jutes and probably some Frisians. The Danelaw area of England closely tracks the greatest concentrations of L22. That was also where the Angles settled originally. So, we have no way of knowing how much L22 was in the Angles to begin with. Jutes also probably had good amounts of L22.

    Many cultures called all Germans by one name, usually the largest tribe they had contact with. The Scotti called them Sassanach (Saxons), the Welsh Sassoneg, etc. The French call Germany Alemmania after one tribe, even though they themselves are now named after a German Tribe.

    So, the tribes were not separate at all. The labels by which they are known may not be accurate. The Saxons apparently included many smaller tribes like Chauci. There were lots of Suebi and Longobard/Lombard groups too. And of course Goths.

    The bottom line is that modern I1 became Germanic and then moved with Germanic tribes into places such as Serbia. There is Irish Z63 of people who test essentially purely Celtic on modern tests.

    Pre-modern I1 may have had non-germanic origins to begin with, but we cannot know at this point. Picking exactly the identity of a haplogroup is tricky because the autosomal component can change, see R1.

    We call M269 and M417 european today because that is what they became, like modern I1 became Germanic.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Srbljaci derivated from Serbs. In Serbian language Serbs is Srbi, and Srbljaci is version of Srbi (Serbs).
    The suffix -aci (plural) means "those from the area of".

    "Srblje" is the Church Slavonic name of the medieval Serbia and "Srbljaci" means "those who came from the area of Serbia". When the word is in singular than the suffix is -ak.

    Some examples:

    Bošnjaci (Bosniaks) - people from Bosnia.
    Tuzlaci - people from Tuzla (city)
    Duvnjaci - people from Duvno (former name of the city)
    ...

    According to the sources, the territory of medieval Serbia was populated by different ethnic groups, including Arbanasi (later Albanians) therefore the term Srbljaci doesn't neccessarilly mean ethnic Serbs.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There is no proof that I1-Z63 is Germanic much less Gothic,i will repeat again,this clade is almost absent where Goths are thought to originate Scandinavia.
    It is common in other regions of Europe.

    Other clades of I1 are another story for which we can speak of Germanic origin.

    I-Z63 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp info



    I1-Z63 might not be Germanic,but Germanized much like it was Slavicized,Romanized etc,could be a old wandering farmer lineage around Europe,ending up in many countries and peoples.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 11-01-18 at 23:10.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is not just that L22 and Z63 are widely spread and present all the way North, many of their distant branches are very widely spread too. I1A3 Young started with Z63 so I will continue with that haplotype.

    Looking at the FTDNA data, I see plenty of Scandinavian and North European countries often mixed with Mediterian Europe in the same Z63 branches. So, it is possible distribution by the sea (like in case of Vikings) for some branches of Z63.
    Sweden-Germany-Italy-Spain.JPG
    So much talk about I1 and Hungary. So here is Norway-Hungary-Island combo on the same little branch, far out on I1-Z63 tree trunk.
    Norvay-Icland-Hungry.JPG

    We will not solve this just by looking Balkans and talking about origins of old I1.

    Ia13 Young, looking forward to your maps when you get a chance to complete them.
    Last edited by Zvrk9; 12-01-18 at 05:09.

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    Well, this thread is old and anything I've said when i opened it was just speculation. Since then I've done the Big Y and my only match at zero known snp differences is a Spaniard. An ftdna admin told us that it may be from the Suebi and since the Suebi also lived in what used to be White Serbia then it's likely my subclade was assimilated into the original Serbs before they migrated south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by despot View Post
    Well, this thread is old and anything I've said when i opened it was just speculation. Since then I've done the Big Y and my only match at zero known snp differences is a Spaniard. An ftdna admin told us that it may be from the Suebi and since the Suebi also lived in what used to be White Serbia then it's likely my subclade was assimilated into the original Serbs before they migrated south.
    Unfortunately, White Serbia does not exist, there is no history record that mentions White Serbia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Germanic Movements
    Attachment 9622

    378-439.jpg

    Kingdoms established

    Germanic+Kingdoms+Emerge.jpg

    Germania by Ptolemy - many of these combined to form the "large" tribes.

    Germania.jpg

    Expansion by dates - see what I mean when I said the line between old Germanic people and Scandinavians is very hard to draw.

    scandia expansion.jpg

    I forget the date of this map but it's post slavic expansion and after the many tribes combined. The Franks are never even mentioned in very old tribe lists. I posted this to show what the Saxons became eventually.

    map-oldsaxon.jpg

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