Serb with I1

[despot]

Hello,

I am new to the forum and got my results back last week. i am I1 and I know this is rare in Serbia proper. I come from a small town in central serbia where supposedly Saxon miners settled. Could it be from them or another source?

Thank you

[sparkey]

Serbian I1 does tend to be Germanic in origin, although there were indeed multiple Germanic peoples who passed through, including Saxons and Ostrogoths. Do you have anything more specific than "I1," like STRs or additional SNP testing? That might help narrow the source down more, or at least give a more informed guess. West Germanic peoples tend to have more I1-Z58 and East Germanic peoples are usually thought to have had more I1-Z63.

[despot]

Serbian I1 does tend to be Germanic in origin, although there were indeed multiple Germanic peoples who passed through, including Saxons and Ostrogoths. Do you have anything more specific than "I1," like STRs or additional SNP testing? That might help narrow the source down more, or at least give a more informed guess. West Germanic peoples tend to have more I1-Z58 and East Germanic peoples are usually thought to have had more I1-Z63.

Thanks for the reply, unfortunately I don't. Just a straight I1, notI1* or I1 a etc

[FrankN]

You might want to check out this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli

Marcellinus comes recorded that the Romans (meaning the East Romans or in modern naming the Byzantines) allowed them to resettle depopulated "lands and cities" near Singidunum (modern Belgrade); this was done "by order of Anastasius Caesar" sometime between June 29 and August 31, 512.

I don't know where exactly you are from, but that, rather short-lived but nevertheless sizeable settlement is another possible source of I1 inflow into central Serbia.

[despot]

You might want to check out this:


I don't know where exactly you are from, but that, rather short-lived but nevertheless sizeable settlement is another possible source of I1 inflow into central Serbia.

Yes I am from "Moesia Superior" how sizable do you think it was?

[despot]

By the way i am from a region where many men were Hajduks or guerilla fighters against the Ottomans

[FrankN]

Yes I am from "Moesia Superior" how sizable do you think it was?

Difficult to say. The Herulian kingdom stretched somewhere between Ostrava in the north, Vienna in the west, the Danube to the south and the Tisza to the east. That's quite an area. Not all Herulians resettled from there, and not all (probably not even the majority) of those who resettled were genetically Herulian, i.e. of the old Scandinavia / East Germanic stock - they surely picked up a lot of other people on their way. However, I guess the old Herulian elite was more likely to resettle, while the traditional inhabitants of north Danubian lands didn't mind that much whether their rulers were Goths, Herulians, Lombards, Gepids or whichever other Germanic tribe happened to establish a kingdom there. In any case, that was old Marcomannic lands, some "locals" that joined the Herulians, e.g. for family reasons, may also have been Germanic.

Sigidinum seems to have been quite a large city (you actually should be able better than I to find out how large, I suppose some Yugoslavian / Serbian archaeologists have researched on it). Moreover, the East Roman document speaks about cities - i.e. more than just one or two. In the 510 peace treaty with the Ostrogoths, East Rome had gained the easternmost part of Pannonia, the Bassiana civitas (near to today's Putinci, see map below), while Sirmium (Sremska Mitrovica) remained with the Ostrogoths. It is commonly assumed that the Heruli colony included Bassiana, so it formed a buffer against the Ostrogoths to the west, and the Gepids to the north. It surely also included Tauruno (Zemun). As such, the western extent of their settlement would have gone to a line that runs from somewhere west of Cusum (Novi Sad - Petrovaradin) southward to the Sava.


The eastern extent of the settlement is more difficult to estimate. The next larger Roman city on the Danube was Viminacium (Stari Kostolac). Being the capital of Moesia Superior, a transfer to the Herulians would surely have been explicitly listed, which it wasn't. As such, their realm must have ended somewhere west of Viminacium. The Tabula Peutingerania (picture below) displays two towns between Singidinum and Viminacium: Tricornio (Ritopek) and Monte Aureo (Seone near Smederevo). The Great Morava is just indicated as river 13 miles east of Monte Aureo (Margum fluvium), without a town being located there. Geographically, it would have made sense to select the Great Morava / Jezava as eastern border of the Herulian territory. If the new federates proved a bit less reliable then expected, East Rome would still have a well-defendable border of apparently uninhabited swampland at the mouth of the Morava, and a strong garrison placed in Viminacium. However, East Rome might also have chosen to maintain control over the Great Morava, probably a relevant transport route, and end Herulian lands somewhere between Tricornio and Monte Aureo, e.g. at the Danube bend near Grocka.


There weren't any major Roman settlements in the hills south of Belgrade. Furthermore, the East Roman historian Priskus reports that Attila had demanded Rome to depopulate all lands south of the Danube between Sirmium and Novae (near Svistov in Bulgaria) over a width of five day marches (~100 km) as a precondition to peace. Whether that just referred to military settlements, or to all the population, is unclear. However, with the soldiers' protection and purchasing power gone, many civilians should have left as well. As such, one can assume that at least the northern part of this 100 km wide depopulated stretch was given to the Herulians. I think the minimum southward extent was to the Ralja river, and then some line from the Ralja's source to the Sava around Baric. The theoretical maximum would be to the Western Morava, from there to the Drina, and then up north along the border with the Ostrogoths, corresponding to the western part of Diokletian's Moesia Prima. [I suppose the East Roman acquisition of Bassanae was part of a general border adjustment, so the new border may have run more or less straight north-southward from Sabac to Roganica.] A southern & western border along the rivers Belica, Jasenica, Ljig and Kolubara would correspond well to the 100 km wide depopulated zone south of the Danube. It also reflects the assumed extent of the Tricornienses subdivision within Moesia Superior that was created by Emperor Trajan with initially Tricornio, later Singidunum as administrative capital.
How relevant such borders were in practice is another question - you will need to check with local archaeologists whether there is any indication of new settlement during 510-537 AD, or the area remained as sparsely settled as it was before. It could also make sense to check out Mt. Rudnik - if mining was still on-going there in the early 6th century, East Rome might have preferred direct control.


By 537 BC, the Gepids took over many areas along the Danube, and relocated their capital to Sirmium. This may have been part of a deal between with East Rome, which at that time was fighting the Ostrogoths in Dalmatia and Italy and needed a stable northern border. Since many of those Herulians that didn't relocate to Moesia Superior had searched refuge with the Gepids, I could imagine that transfer to Gepid rule (possibly more nominal than de facto) met little resistance. As such, the Wikipedia map above (as reliable as such maps are!) may also help to assess the southward extent of the previous Herulian colony. Gepid rule lasted until 567. Then, the lands south of the Danube briefly returned to East Rome, possibly as part of a deal with the Avars who had received East Roman financial support for their war against the Gepids. In 582, the alliance with the Avars broke. Sirmium and Singidunum changed hands several times before ultimately falling under Avar rule around 625 AD. East Roman historians attest the presence of a sizeable number of Gepids among the Avars by 630 AD, where exactly is unclear though.

[FrankN]

A few links that might be interesting:
Mining and territorial organisation of Moesia Superior: http://books.google.de/books?id=NtgB...perior&f=false
Anitque mining on Mt. Rudnik: http://www.academia.edu/2100294/Eneo...investigations

[despot]

A few links that might be interesting:
Mining and territorial organisation of Moesia Superior:

thanks guys, these are my final results from 23andm me anyways:


















99.8%

European



Southern European

65.8% Balkan



0.5% Italian



8.1% Broadly Southern European






16.3% Eastern European





Northern European

0.1% French & German



3.9% Broadly Northern European





5.1% Broadly European






0.2% East Asian & Native American

[LeBrok]

thanks guys, these are my final results from 23andm me anyways:


















99.8%

European



Southern European

65.8% Balkan



0.5% Italian



8.1% Broadly Southern European






16.3% Eastern European





Northern European

0.1% French & German



3.9% Broadly Northern European





5.1% Broadly European






0.2% East Asian & Native American

It always surprises me how little genetic connection is between Yugoslavia/Iliria area in balkans to Italians. It is fairly easy to walk around or cross Adriatic in a boat. And yet there is some sort of invisible barrier.

[kamani]

It always surprises me how little genetic connection is between Yugoslavia/Iliria area in balkans to Italians. It is fairly easy to walk around or cross Adriatic in a boat. And yet there is some sort of invisible barrier.

I have a feeling the admixture "Balkan" is very close to the admixture "Italian" on 23AndMe. His result is typical ex-Yugoslavian; if you take out his 16% admixture "Eastern European" and add it to "Balkan", his numbers would be close to Albanian or Greek.

[despot]

I have a feeling the admixture "Balkan" is very close to the admixture "Italian" on 23AndMe. His result is typical ex-Yugoslavian; if you take out his 16% admixture "Eastern European" and add it to "Balkan", his numbers would be close to Albanian or Greek.

They should separate Balkanic and add Illyrian, Greco-roman, south slavic or something to that effect instead of grouping everyone together, even Slovenes are Balkanic on 23andme.

[despot]

Serbian I1 does tend to be Germanic in origin, although there were indeed multiple Germanic peoples who passed through, including Saxons and Ostrogoths. Do you have anything more specific than "I1," like STRs or additional SNP testing? That might help narrow the source down more, or at least give a more informed guess. West Germanic peoples tend to have more I1-Z58 and East Germanic peoples are usually thought to have had more I1-Z63.

Does this help? I'm still trying to understand all of this

I1 defining mutations
variant	call			der
(P30)				A
(P40)				T
(M307)				A
(M450)				A
(M253)			T

This is my "conservative" results from 23 and me












96.6% European





12.2% Balkan
6.4% Broadly Southern European



0.2% Eastern European



77.7% Broadly European





3.4% Unassigned

[sparkey]

Does this help? I'm still trying to understand all of this

I'm not a 23andMe expert, but it seems that they're just giving you several different SNPs that all mean I1. They don't give STRs like FTDNA or downstream subclade SNPs like Geno 2.0. That means that you're likely stuck with "probably Germanic of some kind" as the story of your patriline, unless you also test somewhere else.

[despot]

I'm not a 23andMe expert, but it seems that they're just giving you several different SNPs that all mean I1. They don't give STRs like FTDNA or downstream subclade SNPs like Geno 2.0. That means that you're likely stuck with "probably Germanic of some kind" as the story of your patriline, unless you also test somewhere else.

Thanks, I know others that got I1* on 23andme were of a different subclade than just I1 and had to test it again like at FTDNA

[despot]

I checked my SNPs with Dr. Ken Nordtvedt via email. I am L22- P109- M227- but DF29+ so that leaves Z58 and Z63 but impossible to check on 23andme. What a ripoff. Either can be I1-ASgen considering there are vast amounts of Z63+ in England as well according to him.

[Skerdilaidas]

They should separate Balkanic and add Illyrian, Greco-roman, south slavic or something to that effect instead of grouping everyone together, even Slovenes are Balkanic on 23andme.

They defenitely should, and they might in the future once they have enough samples from all Balkanic groups. Anyways, this is what the "Balkan" is composed of at 23andme:
Balkan
Located in the southeastern corner of Europe, the mountainous Balkans are rich in both cultural and linguistic diversity.

Population	Source	Sample Size
Greece	23andMe	147
Romania	23andMe	129
Bulgaria	23andMe	75
Croatia	23andMe	51
Bosnia and Herzegovina	23andMe	25
Serbia	23andMe	17
Macedonia	23andMe	12
Albania	23andMe	8
Malta	23andMe	6
Montenegro	23andMe	6

[despot]

Apparently I'm I1 z63+, I think Alaric and the Thervingian goths sowed their seeds big time in Serbia/Moesia after they settled south of the Danube en masse.

[sparkey]

Of course we can't be certain, but I would agree that the Goths are a good best guess for a Serb with I1-Z63.

Golja izwis!

[despot]

Of course we can't be certain, but I would agree that the Goths are a good best guess for a Serb with I1-Z63.

Golja izwis!

No of course not, I was kidding but it is interesting that the Thervingians settled south of Danube in large numbers thanks to the huns. I doubt they all got up and left to become Visigoths with Alaric and ramsack Rome with their women and children. I might be wrong but I think there is more I1 in Serbia than Poland, doubt I1 in Serbia is all from Slavic migrations, I have a lot of Polish relatives on 23andme and they are all R1a1a.

[Aberdeen]

No of course not, I was kidding but it is interesting that the Thervingians settled south of Danube in large numbers thanks to the huns. I doubt they all got up and left to become Visigoths with Alaric and ramsack Rome with their women and children. I might be wrong but I think there is more I1 in Serbia than Poland, doubt I1 in Serbia is all from Slavic migrations, I have a lot of Polish relatives on 23andme and they are all R1a1a.

You are wrong. Serbs and Poles have the same amount of I1. The big genetic difference between the two populations is that Serbs have a lot more I2 and Poles have a lot more R1a. So the Serbs have more of a haplotype that some people see as possibly having survived the last glacial maximum in the Balkans. If to be "Slavic" in a genetic sense is to be R1a, the Poles are more Slavic and the Serbs are more Balkan.

[despot]

You are wrong. Serbs and Poles have the same amount of I1. The big genetic difference between the two populations is that Serbs have a lot more I2 and Poles have a lot more R1a. So the Serbs have more of a haplotype that some people see as possibly having survived the last glacial maximum in the Balkans. If to be "Slavic" in a genetic sense is to be R1a, the Poles are more Slavic and the Serbs are more Balkan.

I see, still interesting considering Poles have always been historically closer to I1 folk than people from Balkans.

[Tomenable]

If to be "Slavic" in a genetic sense is to be R1a, the Poles are more Slavic and the Serbs are more Balkan.

Not sure why people associate Slavs only with R1a. First of all, certainly Proto-Slavs (before expansion) were not 100% R1a people. Secondly, most probably not all R1a subclades were present among Proto-Slavs (or at least not in high frequencies). Out of all R1a subclades, Z280 (and its subclade Z92) seems to be "the most Slavic" one. But it is also Baltic. So it appears to be Balto-Slavic, i.e. common already among the Balto-Slavic community before they split into Proto-Balts and Proto-Slavs. Also I2a1b seems to be a very Slavic Y HG:



On the other hand, M458 and one of its subclades - L260 - appears to be either Proto-West Slavic (i.e. common among this branch of Slavs which migrated westward and became ancestors of modern West Slavs), or Pre-West Slavic (i.e. common among Non-Slavic people - maybe hypothetical Venedic-speaking populations or speakers of other extinct IE language - absorbed by Proto West Slavs):

[LeBrok]

First of all welcome to Eupedia Tomenable

Out of all R1a subclades, Z280 (and its subclade Z92) seems to be "the most Slavic" one. But it is also Baltic.

Judging by lack of other major R1a subclades in Croats, Z280 minus Z92 is the prime candidate for Slavic ethos, if I may say so. Having said that the waters are still very muddy. We need to wait for ancient DNA to finally get this puzzle right.

[Tomenable]

Hi there, it's nice to be here, I've discovered a great forum. ;)

I googled "R1a M458 among Croats" and found that they have around 3% of M458 (not sure how much of L260 among this 3%):

https://www.google.pl/search?q=R1a+M...FISh8wen7YGgCQ

So probably that chart above could also look like this: