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Thread: Ancient (pre-Roman / Greek/ Celtic) place names around the Mediterranean

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    Ancient (pre-Roman / Greek/ Celtic) place names around the Mediterranean



    Inspired by a recent discussion, which will hopefully soon be moved here, the idea is to collect place names that are obviously not of Roman, Greek or Celtic origin (and also not Germanic or Arab) but relate to older languages, as a base to identify ancient population movements and trade contacts. The Mediterranean may be interpreted in a wide sense, including the Black Sea, the Atlantic coast up to the British Isles, and the hinterland (Alps, Balkans, Near East, etc.)

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    Re-posted from the original thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    "Interesting is torg (marketplace). That's obviously not Slavic, but Venetic / Illyrian (Tergeste, Trogir etc.)."

    I gave you few examples why TRG or TORG (Trgovati) is Slavic but you did not give me your reasons why you think this is a Venetic word; transliterate this word through the Venetic! (you can not, because you don't even know how sounded "marketing" or any other variants in Venetic.
    The other / second form is TRŽIŠČE; Tržiti; Trženje; from this root came TRST and Italian version as "TRIESTE" (after TRG; "Trgeste"; an occult transliteration of TRŽIŠČE); other cities, streets in Slovenia with Lingual root TR are: TRŽIČ, TRŽAŠKA CESTA, TROJANE(Troyane - before Ljubljana), etc...
    This is how they (Italians) were re-naming all non-"roman"(transliteration of Etruscan Ruma("Shining; light, sun") cities... until today.
    Come on, you don't really want to say that Dalmatians have been speaking Slavic in antiquity, which was overlooked by all Roman geographers? Trogir has already in the 3rd century BC been recorded as Tragurion, a Greek colony. The first mentioning of Trieste is by Artemidor of Ephesus (104 BC) under the name of Tergeste. In both cases, "they" spoke and wrote Greek, not Italian. But, don't worry, the Romans used the same names, as can be seen on the Tabula Peutingerania (bottom right):

    However, I may actually have been wrong in calling "T-R-G" Illyric-Venetian. There is also this town, which has clearly Etruscan origins:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquinia
    And another possibly Etruscan name
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracina
    Plus, we have this Phoenician trading place
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona
    And, derived from "Tarku"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus,_Mersin
    Troy (Troia) as T-R-G market place is probably a bit far-fetched...
    Anyway, clear proof that the Vikings already controlled the Mediterranean trade in antiquity, and established torgs everywhere..
    PS: If I were to set up a pan-Mediterranean port network, these are some of the places I would consider:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachoni
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taucheira
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakros
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgos_Dirou
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragano
    Tragaki, Zakynthos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oderzo
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trani
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triggiano
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranto

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    Re-posted from original thread:

    Sile
    Originally Posted by Vedun
    About which Illyrians are you talking about? There are no written sources of Illyrian language at all. You can not re-produce a derivative of a word on the basis of a nation for which we do not know what language they spoke. All you read about so called Illyrians is rather an Albanian nationalistic nonsense and occult claims, theories which were created to write books about them (like about the Atlantis story) and fill the gapes between Ghauls (Celts), Veneti and Etruscans, it is rather a FAITH than anything else... And besides there is no proof that Adriatic Veneti even spoke "terg". This claim comes from Italian nationalists who deny existence of Slovene minority and are still implementing their Apartheid in the 21st century. There even exists a society called Resians which remained the original Rhetic danes and culture - in Slovene language (there is no proof of any mass Slavic expansion in 6th century at all; the only tribe which was migrating were Antes and even they migrated because they were seeking brides (women) in the west (the picture of the mtDNA did not change through the centuries)... current archeological discoveries disprove some mass migration of "proto Slavs" and prove some minor activity of the same tribes, not since 6th century, but already since 1st century... Those tribes came from current Ukraine, which was part of the so called "Scythian" diaspora. In fact is Venetic language rather still a mystery. Why? Because they can not translate 1 Venetic text which has more than 5 words in 1 sentence, so they make everything up; basing those words on the Latin and Italian languages ONLY.. Tell me something; how would you transliterate the Venetic word "TRIMUZIAT" or TRUBOZIAT? Throught the Latin or through the Greek or perhaps through French and German? Now, when I've asked some Italian linguist to translate me some longer text, he failed...If they fail to transliterate the basic "Indo European" Venetic written texts, now imagine about their fairy tales about the so called "Illyrians"..
    "Interesting is torg (marketplace). That's obviously not Slavic, but Venetic / Illyrian (Tergeste, Trogir etc.)."

    I gave you few examples why TRG or TORG (Trgovati) is Slavic but you did not give me your reasons why you think this is a Venetic word; transliterate this word through the Venetic! (you can not, because you don't even know how sounded "marketing" or any other variants in Venetic.
    The other / second form is TRŽIŠČE; Tržiti; Trženje; from this root came TRST and Italian version as "TRIESTE" (after TRG; "Trgeste"; an occult transliteration of TRŽIŠČE); other cities, streets in Slovenia with Lingual root TR are: TRŽIČ, TRŽAŠKA CESTA, TROJANE(Troyane - before Ljubljana), etc...
    This is how they (Italians) were re-naming all non-"roman"(transliteration of Etruscan Ruma("Shining; light, sun") cities... until today.
    The veneti that arrived in the adriatic initially was only a small contingent, they absorbed the Euganei people ( original people ) who where a branch of the raeti people. The venetic language is taken from the euganei, this is the only logical explanation why venetic, raetic , camunic are all very similar language.
    The Italians cannot decipher raetic, how do you expect them to decipher venetic.

    ALL we know is that archeology of venetic times is from 1150BC...........6 sites in modern west slovenia, 18 sites from Italy to innsbruck austria and the other 320plus sites in north-east italy ( with the bulk southern veneto area) .

    Of course there are a few ancient venetic people that remained in Slovenia and became slavs when slavs moved in , the same as there are many "Austrians" there where venetic and became germans when the bavarians moved there.
    This silly comment that Slovenes portray that they arrived in Slovenia in the bronze-age is complete nonsense and rubbish




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    Re-poste from original thread:

    Vedun
    "Troy (Troia) as T-R-G market place is probably a bit far-fetched...

    Anyway, clear proof that the Vikings already controlled the Mediterranean trade in antiquity, and established torgs everywhere..

    PS: If I were to set up a pan-Mediterranean port network, these are some of the places I would consider:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachoni
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taucheira
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakros
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgos_Dirou
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragano
    Tragaki, Zakynthos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oderzo
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trani
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triggiano
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranto"

    Occult nonsense. There were no "Vikings" establishing and naming any cities in Mediterranean. All cities you've mentioned have totally different meanings; this includes the city of Trogir, which simply derives from Etruscan Torkuna-Kir (like the city of Tarquinia; names were often shortened into "Torkir" and later into "Trogir"; which means "market part(rock; another word for a "rock" was PETER in Etruscan; "Peter the Rock" in Vatican (Etruscan 8ATIZ; "Seer"; Videc in Slovene(Video in Greek, etc...) ". The "Illyrians" were nothing else than Viliri or Wheel-irian (Trojans), who also lived around the Tyrrhenian (Vilirian; "Ilios" = Viloš; greeks did not use "V" for Veneti and for Trojans - Vilosh (Wheel; Volan, VIL) sea...
    The "Trani" city is named by Etruscan Turan.

    Regards to Troja. I've intentionally mentioned it. It includes the Lingual container "TR" which means "rotation" (cycle). Wheel (Viloš; Ilios). And Market place is nothing else than a center for (cyclic) exchange, resell. Money and goods which are "circulating" among the population... That's why "TRG" and TORG or whatever...

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    Re-posted from original thread:

    Sile

    Originally Posted by Vedun
    "Troy (Troia) as T-R-G market place is probably a bit far-fetched...

    Anyway, clear proof that the Vikings already controlled the Mediterranean trade in antiquity, and established torgs everywhere..

    PS: If I were to set up a pan-Mediterranean port network, these are some of the places I would consider:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachoni
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taucheira
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakros
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgos_Dirou
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragano
    Tragaki, Zakynthos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oderzo
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trani
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triggiano
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranto"

    Occult nonsense. There were no "Vikings" establishing and naming any cities in Mediterranean. All cities you've mentioned have totally different meanings; this includes the city of Trogir, which simply derives from Etruscan Torkuna-Kir (like the city of Tarquinia; names were often shortened into "Torkir" and later into "Trogir"; which means "market part(rock; another word for a "rock" was PETER in Etruscan; "Peter the Rock" in Vatican (Etruscan 8ATIZ; "Seer"; Videc in Slovene(Video in Greek, etc...) ". The "Illyrians" were nothing else than Viliri or Wheel-irian (Trojans), who also lived around the Tyrrhenian (Vilirian; "Ilios" = Viloš; greeks did not use "V" for Veneti and for Trojans - Vilosh (Wheel; Volan, VIL) sea...
    The "Trani" city is named by Etruscan Turan.

    Regards to Troja. I've intentionally mentioned it. It includes the Lingual container "TR" which means "rotation" (cycle). Wheel (Viloš; Ilios). And Market place is nothing else than a center for (cyclic) exchange, resell. Money and goods which are "circulating" among the population... That's why "TRG" and TORG or whatever...
    Oderzo never had access to the sea...it is not a port .

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    Re-posted from original thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    "Troy (Troia) as T-R-G market place is probably a bit far-fetched...
    Anyway, clear proof that the Vikings already controlled the Mediterranean trade in antiquity, and established torgs everywhere..
    PS: If I were to set up a pan-Mediterranean port network, these are some of the places I would consider:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachoni
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taucheira
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakros
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgos_Dirou
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragano
    Tragaki, Zakynthos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oderzo
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trani
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triggiano
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranto"
    Occult nonsense. There were no "Vikings" establishing and naming any cities in Mediterranean. All cities you've mentioned have totally different meanings; this includes the city of Trogir, which simply derives from Etruscan Torkuna-Kir (like the city of Tarquinia; names were often shortened into "Torkir" and later into "Trogir"; which means "market part(rock; another word for a "rock" was PETER in Etruscan; "Peter the Rock" in Vatican (Etruscan 8ATIZ; "Seer"; Videc in Slovene(Video in Greek, etc...) ". The "Illyrians" were nothing else than Viliri or Wheel-irian (Trojans), who also lived around the Tyrrhenian (Vilirian; "Ilios" = Viloš; greeks did not use "V" for Veneti and for Trojans - Vilosh (Wheel; Volan, VIL) sea...
    The "Trani" city is named by Etruscan Turan.
    Regards to Troja. I've intentionally mentioned it. It includes the Lingual container "TR" which means "rotation" (cycle). Wheel (Viloš; Ilios). And Market place is nothing else than a center for (cyclic) exchange, resell. Money and goods which are "circulating" among the population... That's why "TRG" and TORG or whatever...
    If you haven't noticed yet, my "Viking" comment was of course ironic. In any case, "T-R-G", and possibly also "TR" as in Troia, appears to be a very ancient East-Mediterranean word. If we assume Thera and Tarragon being based on this root, it should date back to at least the third millennium BC, which probably makes it pre-Indo-European. Phoenician "QRT" (=city, as in Cartago) might actually represent a variation on the same root. The relation of "market" to "turning (over)" is fascinating - quite a high level of abstraction for ancient civilizations.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    Re-posted from original thread:


    If you haven't noticed yet, my "Viking" comment was of course ironic. In any case, "T-R-G", and possibly also "TR" as in Troia, appears to be a very ancient East-Mediterranean word. If we assume Thera and Tarragon being based on this root, it should date back to at least the third millennium BC, which probably makes it pre-Indo-European. Phoenician "QRT" (=city, as in Cartago) might actually represent a variation on the same root. The relation of "market" to "turning (over)" is fascinating - quite a high level of abstraction for ancient civilizations.
    the correct greek historical term for Troia refers to ...not the city , but the surrounding land, the city was always called Ilios. check all the historians.

    Troi is also a Phyrgian term for dirt, ground etc

    hittite texts
    placenames Wilusa and Taruisa found in Hittite texts should be identified with Ilion and Troia

    Wilusa = ilion, ilios
    Taruisa = troia .............countryside, the region held by Ilios
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    If we want to connect the word Troy with the words earth, land, then in Albanian (earth, land) = (troj, truall, plural troje), usually used for inhabited or building land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    If we want to connect the word Troy with the words earth, land, then in Albanian (earth, land) = (troj, truall, plural troje), usually used for inhabited or building land.
    Is Troy an exonym or endonym?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Is Troy an exonym or endonym?
    Not sure what the Trojans called themselves but even if we consider its old name Ilios , it sounds like Ilir (Albanian word for Illyrian). Not quite saying that they were Illyrian but might have been related.

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