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Thread: Albanian Tribe and Clan (Fis) Y-DNA

  1. #26
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    This clan business is interesting. Any one has some kind of detailed history of how these clans came to be? Are they created in recent history or there is a possibility much older then that? If people were already mixed in ancient times the probability is that these clans would be pretty mixed too, but only a proper DNA study can determine that. Example there were many misconceptions with some racial separation between Christian and Muslim Lebanese or some kind of Racial purity within Jews. Dna testing seem to have busted these conceptions.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    R1b in Albania is from the Illyrians and linked to the steppe before arriving in central-East Europe during the metal ages. These men likely brought their version of IE language along with them. While E-V13 is the dominant haplogroup among men in the Balkans, there is no way in hell these individuals spoke PIE in any form.

    Bold statements eh? But likely true.
    Why do you considered your statement bold? It is an open possibly like so many others nothing controversial about that in my opinion. In relation to language it all depends were E-V13 was mutated and what the first person spoke within his group. It could have been easily mixed with G's and J's. from its conception. But does anyone know for sure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This clan business is interesting. Any one has some kind of detailed history of how these clans came to be? Are they created in recent history or there is a possibility much older then that? If people were already mixed in ancient times the probability is that these clans would be pretty mixed too, but only a proper DNA study can determine that. Example there were many misconceptions with some racial separation between Christian and Muslim Lebanese or some kind of Racial purity within Jews. Dna testing seem to have busted these conceptions.
    Albanians have had Clans since we were first recorded in history. In South Albania they were known as "Fara" (meaning seed), and in North as "Fis" (meaning Clan). However, the Clans we have listed in this project are from North Albania, because they are the only ones that have preserved their traditions until today. They were first recorded during early middle ages, so we assume that is when they were actually formed too, and latter grew bigger to counter the Ottoman dominance on the rural areas, and also for protection (strictly they were warlike Clans, which were also famous as mercenaries).

    Considering that these Clans were based on blood related families only through the male line and were exogamous, meaning they only took brides from other Clans that they had no blood relations, theoretically each should be of one y-dna. There were instances though of Brotherhoods, meaning male ancestors joined the Clans, and some of the Clans that have such traditions would obviously be more diverse on y-dna. So far only four y-dna we have on all these Clans, and E-V13 is dominating along with R1b, then J2b, so quite compact I would say. Blood relations were passed down orally by the elders, and their councils.

    They were all Catholic during middle ages, but some fractions converted to Orthodoxy, and later quite a bit of these Clans also converted to Islam, but their core in North Albania is still Catholic. These Clans followed/obeyed what we call in Albanian "Kanun". Kanun simply used to be our bible and kuran, so religion basically meant nothing to these Clans (just an outside influence). There is quite a bit of material on them, but unfortunately not very much on English.
    Last edited by Skerdilaidas; 24-12-14 at 19:18.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Albanians have had Clans since we were first recorded in history. In South Albania they were known as "Fara" (meaning seed), and in North as "Fis" (meaning Clan). However, the Clans we have listed in this project are from North Albania, because they are the only ones that have preserved their traditions until today. They were first recorded during early middle ages, so we assume that is when they were actually formed too, to counter the Ottoman dominance on the rural areas, and also for protection (strictly they were warlike Clans, which were also famous as mercenaries).

    Considering that these Clans were based on blood related families only through the male line and were exogamous, meaning they only tool brides from other Clans that they had no blood relations, theoretically they should all be of one y-dna. There were instances though of Brotherhoods, meaning male ancestors joined the Clans, and some of the Clans that have such traditions would obviously be more diverse on y-dna. So far only four y-dna we have on all these Clans, and E-V13 is dominating along with R1b, then J2b, so quite compact I would say. Blood relations were passed down orally by the elders, and their councils.

    They were all Catholic during middle ages, but some fractions converted to Orthodoxy, and later quite a bit of these Clans also converted to Islam, but their core in North Albania is still Catholic. These Clans followed/obeyed what we call in Albanian "Kanun". Kanun simply used to be our bible and kuran, so religion basically meant nothing to these Clans (just an outside influence). There is quite a bit of material on them, but unfortunate not very much on English.
    Thanks for info Skerdilaidas. Thats very interesting. I guess my roots are there somewhere or in Greece, Who knows what era it was 7000 years (probably more) is a long time to put a clear picture together

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    New


    Shkreli Clan, from Gjakova, Kosova: I1*

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi everyone. I am Albanian from the Kercova area (Western Macedonia). I recently tested as J2B2* on 23andme.com. My family (fis) roots are in the Kercova area for as long as anyone remembers. I ordered a y-dna 37 marker from FTDNA, and am looking forward to contributing to the FTDNA Albanian project. I haven't heard of anyone from my area doing this test that I know of, so it will be interesting to see if there is any connection between my J2B2 and the ones in Albania and Kosova. What do u guys think?
    Last edited by Trojet; 17-01-15 at 02:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Hi everyone. I am from the Kercova area (Western Macedonia). I recently tested as J2B2* on 23andme.com. My family (fis) roots are in the Kercova area for as long as anyone remembers. I ordered a y-dna 37 marker from FTDNA, and am looking forward to contributing to the FTDNA Albanian project. I haven't heard of anyone from my area doing this test that I know of, so it will be interesting to see if there is any connection between my J2B2 and the ones in Albania and Kosova. What do u guys think?
    Welcome

    I think its a good Idea


    how come the albanians have the third highest internet usage of members in all major genetic forums?................does everyone in Albania get free internet?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Welcome

    I think its a good Idea


    how come the albanians have the third highest internet usage of members in all major genetic forums?................does everyone in Albania get free internet?
    Thank you.
    I live in the US. I doubt they get free internet in Albania proper. But maybe it's because through DNA and genetics, we can prove to the world that we really are autochthonous, that's if there is any doubts lol...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Hi everyone. I am Albanian from the Kercova area (Western Macedonia). I recently tested as J2B2* on 23andme.com. My family (fis) roots are in the Kercova area for as long as anyone remembers. I ordered a y-dna 37 marker from FTDNA, and am looking forward to contributing to the FTDNA Albanian project. I haven't heard of anyone from my area doing this test that I know of, so it will be interesting to see if there is any connection between my J2B2 and the ones in Albania and Kosova. What do u guys think?
    Welcome, and congrats on your results! After you get your results at ftdna, please join the Albanian project there. Also, I will send you my user name at 23andme.com via pm, so please add me.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi everyone, I am albanian from Dinosha ( near Tuzi or grude) Montenegro. I just did the 23andme test and my Ydna haplogroup is E1b1b1a2. My father says his family comes from the trijshi tribe up in the mountains of Montenegro, a town called Ledina. My maternal line came out D4J, which i found interesting. she is of the Nikovic/nikaj clan.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is the official Albanian project at FTDNA for all Albanians. Our Clan Y-DNA results are in this project as well: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...oodlines/about

    If any moderators can update the link at the beginning of this thread with this one, please do so, since the other link is missing the Clan Y-DNA results relevant to this thread.

    Also if any Albanians are thinking about testing their Y-DNA, please refer to to the above link for information and contribute to our project by testing with FTDNA.

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    J2b2 krasniqi. The legend is true.

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    The official forum of Albanian Bloodlines at FamilyTreeDNA, as well as Albanian genetics, history, and anthropology: www.foleja.net

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    YDNA: R1a1a, Dibra Clan, specifically Martanesh. Surname Koci. Originally from Mirdita. Original surname Pershpalaj.

    MTDNA: H11a, Puka Malsi, surname Shpata, mothers line traces to Gjon Buas Shpata in Cameria.

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    I plan on doing a deeper ydna ftdna once i can afford it to contribute to the albanian ftdna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I plan on doing a deeper ydna ftdna once i can afford it to contribute to the albanian ftdna.
    Hi Dibran, do you know the tribal region or village you originate from in Mirdita? You should test at ftdna because it would be really useful to see what branch you actually belong to. Majority of R1a though in the Balkans seem to have come with Slavs, but there is a 50/50 chance you might belong to a Germanic branch.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Albania, and that might be of interest here. I picked albania since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and because people were interested in it .

    All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access their database.

    I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Albania". I selected all samples that had a male Albanian ancestry (including some Italian/Greek minorities). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 109 samples. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 70 samples. The following were the totals over these 70, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=109). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Albania as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).

    Levels in Albania:
    E-M215: 33%
    G: 6%
    H: 1%
    I1: 5%
    I2: 12%
    J1: 2%
    J2: 16%
    R1a: 8%
    R1b: 20%

    Some remarks:
    93% of E-M215 was V13+ in the detailed samples.

    The only detailed G was P303+.

    About a quarter of the I2 was m223+, the rest P37+. P37 was completely F3245 in the detailed samples.

    In the detailed samples J2a and J2b were nearly 50/50, J2b dominated by Z590.

    The one detailed R1a is CTS3402+

    Almost all R1b was P310-, and most of it was CTS9219+ like in Greece (although there's far fewer P310 in this very limited Albanian sample).
    Last edited by rafc; 02-12-16 at 21:29. Reason: wrong divider

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Albania, and that might be of interest here. I picked albania since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and because people were interested in it .

    All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access their database.

    I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Albania". I selected all samples that had a male Albanian ancestry (including some Italian/Greek minorities). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 109 samples. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 70 samples. The following were the totals over these 70, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=109). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Albania as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).

    Levels in Albania:
    E-M215: 33%
    G: 6%
    H: 1%
    I1: 5%
    I2: 12%
    J1: 2%
    J2: 16%
    R1a: 8%
    R1b: 20%

    Some remarks:
    93% of E-M215 was V13+ in the detailed samples.

    The only detailed G was P303+.

    About a quarter of the I2 was m223+, the rest P37+. P37 was completely F3245 in the detailed samples.

    In the detailed samples J2a and J2b were nearly 50/50, J2b dominated by Z590.

    The one detailed R1a is CTS3402+

    Almost all R1b was P310-, and most of it was CTS9219+ like in Greece (although there's far fewer P310 in this very limited Albanian sample).
    Thanks Rafc!

    Yes, almost all of Albanian R1b is P310- and most most it is under CTS9219>BY611 and some under PF7562 (according to data from Albanian Bloodlines at FTDNA and scientific studies).

    For J2b samples could you give me deeper SNP classification below L283, Z590 if available: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    I'd be curious if you see any Z1043, Z1048.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Thanks Rafc!

    Yes, almost all of Albanian R1b is P310- and most most it is under CTS9219>BY611 and some under PF7562 (according to data from Albanian Bloodlines at FTDNA and scientific studies).

    For J2b samples could you give me deeper SNP classification below L283, Z590 if available: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    I'd be curious if you see any Z1043, Z1048.
    Nothing lower than Z590 was tested, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Nothing lower than Z590 was tested, unfortunately.
    I see. Thanks.

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    Hi Leka,

    So sorry for the late response. I didnt even see I was replied to. Still pretty new to this site. As for where in Mirdita I am unsure. I more and more am starting to suspect that My paternal line descends from Epirus. This would explain the higher likelihood of R1a.

    So the way family oral history goes(which is always questionable) The Kocis of my line descend from a clan of Mirditore by the name Pershpala sometimes written as pershpalaj. I connected with a couple of Mirdit with this surname and tried convincing them to test to see if our paternal ancestors share the same haplogroup. Never tested though so kind of at a loss on that end. The story claims that 3 brothers broke off from an unknown point of origin. Some went to mirdita(and then later diber), others went to Bulgaria, and Turkey.

    My father says the surname was kind of like a title. Much like many albanian surnames are. it is a turkish word for Ram or something or other. The story claims we left Mirdita due to blood feuds(we dont know what year this was) and settled in Okshtun in Dibra vogel. The martanesh region. The name Koci was adopted from warring with the Ottomans apparently. Later we converted to Islam.

    Interestingly there is a Koci clan which is believed to originate in Epirus(this would explain R1a, given the intermixed region). This Koci clan even had a group who settled in Arbanas Bulgaria, and Turkey. The group in Arbanas would move to Moldova where Vasil Lupu Coci half albanian and half moldovan would being prince of Moldova for 19 years.

    ." The Coci family settled in Wallachia (Țara Rumânească) in the first half of the 16th century.[1] His father, Nicolae (Neculai) Coci was a shopkeeper from Macedonia, the son of Constantin (Coce) and Ecaterina.[2] Nicolae entered Moldavian nobility in 1593.[3] According to some sources, his father was born in Arbanasi (a village in modern Bulgaria), while some other historians claim Arbănaşi (modern Romania).[4]
    Dimitrie Cantemir (1673–1723) called him Albanezul ("Albanian"); some historians maintain that Lupu's father, Neculai, was of Albanian origin.[5] Nicolae Bănescu (writing in 1926) maintained that his father was of Balkanic origin, while his mother was Romanian (Moldavian).[6] Seton-Watson (writing in 1934) mentioned him as being of Albanian origin.[7][better source needed] English historian Steven Runciman (1903–2000) maintains that his father was an Albanian adventurer, and his mother was a Moldavian heiress.[8]According to historian Ioan Bolovan (1997), Vasile Lupu's father was an Albanian from Arbanasi, probably with distant origin from Epirus.[9][verification needed] According to historian Toader Nicoară (2005), he may have been an Albanian from Arbanasi, Bulgaria.[10] In modern historiography,[by whom?] his descent has been described as of mixed Albanian and Greek origin."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Lupu



    Its believed his clan were Orthodox. This is interesting given my father claims we were orthodox and mirdita was catholic. There are too many gaps for me to be certain of a connection to the Koci clan in Epirus. It wouldnt explain the name shift from Pershpalaj. It does however explain the high italian and greek that showed up in his gedmatch reports(if there is any accuracy to these tests). Could it be possible something in the oral history was lost in translation? perhaps it was a woman who married into the Koci clan that was connected to the Pershpalaj, and as is often with oral history things get twisted, and they claimed it was from the fathers line. Idk. I just know much of my families history has been in Diber for at least 300 years now. The Kocis who went from Epirus to Bulgaria went in 1450s. Perhaps one of the brothers went to Diber instead.

    The classifications recently changed on 23andme. So I have no idea if they classified me into a subgroup or not. They stated I was R-M417 a subgroup of M512. So Idk what that means. I am interested in doing the Ftdna y test but Idk how many markers I should test at.


    Also if it is of any help I could post my gedmatch results. My fathers as well. I recently had him take the test. Interestingly enough he has alot of Greek relatives. Overwhelmingly so. Which makes me wonder if our clan was in fact in south albania and Cameria region. His maternal line was T1 which seems less common in the Balkans. It is higher in Bulgaria.

    mtDNA-T1-map (2).jpg

    My mothers line was H11a

    mtDNA-H1-H3-map (1).jpg

  22. #47
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    Hi Dibran,

    I will keep an eye for a Preshpalaj in Mirdite, probably your best bet, and will let you know if I find such family. Although, we can't deduce where your origins lie based on your last name alone, as you mentioned 'Koci' used to be a title and most likely was changed in recent history. There are many non related families in Kosova and North Albanian who carry such last name, Koci, a family from Kabashi tribe and another from Thaçi come to mind.

    Epirus to mee doesn't makes sense, you could have come from North for all we could tell. The only way to find that out is test Y-STR markers at Family Tree DNA (which of course is too late as you have tested somewhere else, I saw your thread), and see who matches you within the genealogical time frame and what branch of R1a you belong to. I don't know too much about the company you have tested but I don't believe they test STR markers, so in short you won't be able to find out who are your closest matches paternally. Hypothetically speaking, if you are M458 confirmed by this new company, you won't be able to know if your paternal ancestors were Serbs, Bulgarians/Macedonians, Croats etc.

  23. #48
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Hi Dibran,

    I will keep an eye for a Preshpalaj in Mirdite, probably your best bet, and will let you know if I find such family. Although, we can't deduce where your origins lie based on your last name alone, as you mentioned 'Koci' used to be a title and most likely was changed in recent history. There are many non related families in Kosova and North Albanian who carry such last name, Koci, a family from Kabashi tribe and another from Thaçi come to mind.

    Epirus to mee doesn't makes sense, you could have come from North for all we could tell. The only way to find that out is test Y-STR markers at Family Tree DNA (which of course is too late as you have tested somewhere else, I saw your thread), and see who matches you within the genealogical time frame and what branch of R1a you belong to. I don't know too much about the company you have tested but I don't believe they test STR markers, so in short you won't be able to find out who are your closest matches paternally. Hypothetically speaking, if you are M458 confirmed by this new company, you won't be able to know if your paternal ancestors were Serbs, Bulgarians/Macedonians, Croats etc.

    Hi Leka. As far as I know. According to some reading LivingDNA does specify the grouping and mutation of both maternal and paternal lineages. Rather than a broad assessment it should give me an idea.

    Some sample profiles I looked up by people in twitter also had specific mutations.

    FtDNA is not out of the question. I plan to eventually test and join the group. But as I understand LivingDNA is the best company right now. Money wise and results wise. Aside from let's say health related data. Considering I used my PayPal it was more advantageous at the moment.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Hi Leka. As far as I know. According to some reading LivingDNA does specify the grouping and mutation of both maternal and paternal lineages. Rather than a broad assessment it should give me an idea.

    Some sample profiles I looked up by people in twitter also had specific mutations.

    FtDNA is not out of the question. I plan to eventually test and join the group. But as I understand LivingDNA is the best company right now. Money wise and results wise. Aside from let's say health related data. Considering I used my PayPal it was more advantageous at the moment.
    Did you get your results?

  25. #50
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Did you get your results?
    Hi Leka,

    It can take up to 3 months. I should have my results between march nd end of April. Will update as soon as available.

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