Haplogroup C

[LeBrok]

Hi LeBrok,

Yes it's Y DNA, My mtDNA is N1b1. I have just got results from 23andme and all it says about paternal line is C, no subclade ( where can I get the subclade from? )

The ancestry composition says I have about 85% North African (0.2 middle eastern), 10% European, the rest 0.something subsaharan, and 0.something unassigned.

The turks came about 500 years ago with their mercenaries and until now we know roughly who is turk/balkan who is not in the area, family names etc... Also if my genetic map is 85% north african and from an unusual subclade it means my ancesters lived more than 1000 years in north africa to melt completely with the local genetic pool ?

Go through these threads: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forums/216-DNA-testing-companies
And welcome to Eupedia.

 

[Orca1]

Thanks LeBrok.

I think I need 10 posts at least to be able to open my first thread in this Forum .

 

[Orca1]

I mean I just don't get it when 23andme say I'am 85% north African where my subclade is not noth african at all ....but Asian ??

Maybe someone can explain me the big picture.

 

[LeBrok]

I mean I just don't get it when 23andme say I'am 85% north African where my subclade is not noth african at all ....but Asian ??

Maybe someone can explain me the big picture.

Because Y DNA is on 2% of DNA.

 

[Orca1]

OK. And how long it takes for a DNA composition to melt up to 80% into a certain group ? 500 years? 1000, 10 thousands..?In this case I find it irrelevant to know that my Y DNA originate to 60 thousands years ago in Asia.... 23andme provide only hg C and no subclade which leaves it more ambiguous and vague. Is there a way to map my DNA composition in a more detailed way ? so I can track back my ancestors since the out of Africa all the way down to few hundreds years ago ?

 

[LeBrok]

OK. And how long it takes for a DNA composition to melt up to 80% into a certain group ? 500 years? 1000, 10 thousands..?In this case I find it irrelevant to know that my Y DNA originate to 60 thousands years ago in Asia.... 23andme provide only hg C and no subclade which leaves it more ambiguous and vague. Is there a way to map my DNA composition in a more detailed way ? so I can track back my ancestors since the out of Africa all the way down to few hundreds years ago ?

I'm pretty sure that your Y DNA and mtDNA is not included in your ancestry calculation, because they could be very misleading. They could be very foreign, coming with emigrants to your area, and it could persist, because they don't mix, for thousands of years in a population. Your Y hg C is the best example of it. Having said that it could have arrived in your area tens of thousands of years ago, way before E1b1 did. We just don't know at the moment without deeper subclades.

Autosomal DNA is 98% of your all DNA and comes from both your parents, and generations of your ancestors, on both side of your parents. You have 50/50 of DNA from mother and father. 25/25/25/25, a quarter from each grandparent. Gowing earlier, 1/8th from each great grandparent. By 7th generation, it DNA goes down to less than 1% from each contributor. By 7 generation, everybody has 128 ancestors contributing to own aDNA. 7 generations that's roughly 175 years (25 years per generation), and every single ancestor becomes less and less relevant to the big picture.
For example, this 0.2% of middle eastern of yours, could have come from your Great x6 grandfather who came from Turkey 200 years ago. Interesting thing is that after 200-300 years, the proportions of single ancestors, are so small that it might be deleted permanently from your DNA, depending how parents DNA combine together. It is never perfectly 50/50.

In this light, what is relevant to aDNA, is how it fits into bigger picture of local population. In your case 85% looks exactly native to the area, like most of people there. This can mean that one of your great grandparents was almost 100% European and 7 great grandparents were 100% (or almost) North Africans. This could have given you your ancestral mix of 10% European and 85% North African.
Or 2 of your great great grandparents were Europeans and 14 North Africans.
This could also mean that perhaps in your area of Algeria everybody has your admixture proportions, European part coming in historical times from Romans, Vandals, Spanish and French. Therefore all your autosomal DNA comes from local stock, granted that most Algerians of your area have 10% European admixture. You have to compare your ancestral proportion to other Algerians to know which scenario is closer to the truth.

 

[Twilight]

Is there any pocket of haplogroup C left in Europe? Any specific subclades? There is no Eupedia page about C, so...

On the contrary, Maciamo did happen to mention Ydna C in the link below . There are a couple of documentaries that features Blaudrakon's direct ancestors. But considering that Ydna C and F are almost extinct in Europe today, the Ydna C lineage is only a sliver of Blaudrakon's ancestry and he'd be more closely related to the other Greeks than Paleolithic Europeans.

Hello all. I am new here, so first up, greetings!

I have had my genetic makeup mapped by Nat.Geo. and FDNA, and they gave my Y-DNA as C-F3393 and C-V222 respectively. I have not found any discussion of the C group on this site (maybe I didn't look well enough?) and would be very interested to learn what I can about this haplogroup, if anyone has any insights to share.

Thanks and regards

Hello there Blaudrakon, welcome to Eupedia. There are a couple of documentaries that depict your prehistoric direct ancestors on YouTube. Your direct ancestors were mostly Cro-Magnons whom probably encountered European Neanderthals during the Paleolithic and eventually got genetically absorbed by the ancestors of the Greeks.


Source:





http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#C

 

[Orca1]

Hi Le Brok,

Thanks for all the effort and the time. Really appreciated.

All I am trying to do is narrowing down my hg C to its subclades. To for instance C-V20 or C-something else. I have no idea why 23andme couldn't do that ?

DO i need another test with another lab ? or ask some of my siblings to do the test so that might lead to more conclusive results ? I uploaded my profile onto Gedmatch but haven't got anything yet. The process is taking days apparently ?

 

[Twilight]

Hi Le Brok,

Thanks for all the effort and the time. Really appreciated.

All I am trying to do is narrowing down my hg C to its subclades. To for instance C-V20 or C-something else. I have no idea why 23andme couldn't do that ?

DO i need another test with another lab ? or ask some of my siblings to do the test so that might lead to more conclusive results ? I uploaded my profile onto Gedmatch but haven't got anything yet. The process is taking days apparently ?

Yes I'd try a different test 23andme is a little bit behind on Ydna tech and Gedmatch will only cover your autosomal dna. I recommend genetic sites like Ftdna for a more precise haplogroup.

 

[Orca1]

Hi Twilight,

I just had a look at FtDNA website and found out their Y DNA test is $139. That's alot of money to start with LOL. and if I want to go with 111 markers its $319....!!!

Do you think it's worth it ? Have you tried them ?

 

[Regio X]

@Orca1
A tip: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.p...28410&osCsid=03c0c068c7f4a84517b1a346e1d1e3b2

@LeBrok
About genetic ancestors:
https://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-grow-back-over-time/
https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/

 

[Twilight]

Hi Twilight,

I just had a look at FtDNA website and found out their Y DNA test is $139. That's alot of money to start with LOL. and if I want to go with 111 markers its $319....!!!

Do you think it's worth it ? Have you tried them ?

Let's talk about my personal Ydna here, moved my response to the link below. Although YSEQ seems to be cheaper and accurate as well, didn't hear about that site until now.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...robably-belonged-to-haplogroup-R1b-U152-(L2-)

@Orca1
A tip: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.p...28410&osCsid=03c0c068c7f4a84517b1a346e1d1e3b2

@LeBrok
About genetic ancestors:
https://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-grow-back-over-time/
https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/

Thanks for posting those links

 

[LeBrok]

@Orca1
A tip: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.p...28410&osCsid=03c0c068c7f4a84517b1a346e1d1e3b2

@LeBrok
About genetic ancestors:
https://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-grow-back-over-time/
https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/

Thanks. Much better explained than my quick and rudimentary writing.

This is interesting:

Your number of genetic ancestors will not grow linearly forever. If we go far enough back your number of genetic ancestors will get large enough, on order of the size of the population you are descended from, that it will stop growing as you will be inheriting different chunks of genetic material from the same set of individuals multiple times over. At this point your number of ancestors will begin to plateau. Indeed, once we go back far enough actually your number of genetic ancestors will begin to contract as human populations have grown rapidly over time. I’ll return to this in another post.

Good example of this phenomenon is a very secluded village, let's say in mountains or amazon jungle. One can have as few as 10 ancestors in 10-20 generations, and not in thousands like ordinary European. All ancestral lines will go back to handfull original inhabitants who "seeded" the village gene pool generations ago. All these people in the village, now in high hundreds, will be closely related to each other like 1st cousins.

 

[Orca1]

Just went through Lebrok's link

Haplogroup C is an extremely old lineage thought to have appear before or soon after the first migration of Homo Sapiens outside Africa, some 70,000 years ago. Men belonging to haplogroup C would have departed from East Africa during the Ice Age and followed the coasts of Indian Ocean, settling in the Arabian peninsula, the Indian subcontinent, south-east Asia, north-east Asia and Oceania.

1- The first group to split away was C-Z1426, which colonised the Middle East and South Asia.

--- first possibility

2- One branch (CTS11043) might have moved north to Central Asia, then split into two: one tribe moving west to Europe (haplogroup C-V20)

-- another possibility a group of C-V20 made it down to north Africa via south Europe !

3- while the other migrated to East Asia and survives only in Japan today (haplogroup C-M8).

That's not plausible --- From Japan to North Africa ?

4- Haplogroup C-V20 probably represents the first migration of Homo Sapiens to Europe 45,000 years ago, and would therefore have been the first to come into contact with European Neanderthals, although Homo sapiens are likely to have interbred with Neanderthals in the Middle East before that.

: Could be as I have 2% of Neanderthals DNA

5- The second branch of C-Z1426 spread around South Asia, Southwest Asia, and Central Asia, where it is found at low frequencies nowadays (haplogroup C-M356).During that time, other C tribes continued their eastward migration to south-east Asia, where they split in four main regional clusters. The first branch colonised Indonesia, Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia (haplogroup C2-M38). A second branch would have gone south to Australia, where they became the Aborigenes (haplogroup C4-M347)

. All that sounds too far away to make it back to the north african shores ??

6-

Another settled in the highlands of New Guinea (haplogroup C-P55). The fourth branch went all the way up the north-east Asia (haplogroup C3-M217) and is found nowadays chiefly among the Mongols, tribes descended from the Mongols (Kalmyks, Hazaras) including Turkic people (Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Tuvans, Yakuts),

: Could be !

7 East Siberian tribes (Buryats, Chukchi, Itelmens, Nivkh, Tungusic peoples), Chinese (Han, Hui, Manchus, Oroqens, Tujia), Koreans and Japanese (especially the Ainus), but also among several indigenous peoples of North America, including some Na-Dené-, Algonquian-, or Siouan-speaking populations.

: Also not very plausible

Haplogroup C is a very rare lineage in Europe. The few Europeans who belong C either belong to the European C-V20, the Middle Eastern C-M358, or the Mongolian C3-M217. Haplogroup C3 has also been identified in one Hunnic skeleton from the Iron Age in present-day Mongolia. Its presence in Europe can therefore be linked to the Hunnic and Mongolian invasions, like haplogroup Q1a.

 

[Regio X]

Let's talk about my personal Ydna here, moved my response to the link below. Although YSEQ seems to be cheaper and accurate as well, didn't hear about that site until now.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...robably-belonged-to-haplogroup-R1b-U152-(L2-)

Twilight, YSEQ is a well-known company. I myself tested there time ago. It's trustable.
Besides, I'm not sure Orca1 could buy the C SNP Pack in FTDNA directly, without testing at least 12 markers. Would it be possible?

Thanks. Much better explained than my quick and rudimentary writing.

This is interesting:


Good example of this phenomenon is a very secluded village, let's say in mountains or amazon jungle. One can have as few as 10 ancestors in 10-20 generations, and not in thousands like ordinary European. All ancestral lines will go back to handfull original inhabitants who "seeded" the village gene pool generations ago. All these people in the village, now in high hundreds, will be closely related to each other like 1st cousins.

Indeed. Coincidentally, a match of mine whose grandparents were from an isolated place in the mountains in Northern Italy was just telling me they were all related each other, and they would share a common ancestor not very far back. Other people from this village who have done the test would come out as 3rd cousins of this person, when many times over they are in fact 5th cousins.

 

[Twilight]

Twilight, YSEQ is a well-known company. I myself tested there time ago. It's trustable.
Besides, I'm not sure Orca1 could buy the C SNP Pack in FTDNA directly, without testing at least 12 markers. Would it be possible?

Indeed. Coincidentally, a match of mine whose grandparents were from an isolated place in the mountains in Northern Italy was just telling me they were all related each other, and they would share a common ancestor not very far back. Other people from this village who have done the test would come out as 3rd cousins of this person, when many times over they are in fact 5th cousins.

It's totally cool you learn something new everyday, in no way am I objecting to the site don't get me wrong. Personally, I'm just glad that I waited enough to find a cheaper and better deal and therefore I thank you for the link. ^_^ Good things come for those whom wait after all.

 

[Orca1]

Twilight, YSEQ is a well-known company. I myself tested there time ago. It's trustable.
Besides, I'm not sure Orca1 could buy the C SNP Pack in FTDNA directly, without testing at least 12 markers. Would it be possible?

are YSEQ good ? their price for hg C is most expensive, $99 . is it due to its rarity ?

FtDNA have 3 offers for Y DNA depending on the number of markers. Would be 37 markers enough for me or should I go higher ?

 

[Regio X]

It's totally cool you learn something new everyday, in no way am I objecting to the site don't get me wrong. Personally, I'm just glad that I waited enough to find a cheaper and better deal and therefore I thank you for the link. ^_^ Good things come for those whom wait after all.

I'm glad the tip was helpful. I haven't compared FTDNA's to YSEQ's test regarding to how deep they go, how many SNPs are tested... It would be something to be considered, besides the price.

are YSEQ good ? their price for hg C is most expensive, $99 . is it due to its rarity ?

FtDNA have 3 offers for Y DNA depending on the number of markers. Would be 37 markers enough for me or should I go higher ?

FTDNA and YSEQ are both reliable. It seems YSEQ still uses sanger sequencing technology. http://isogg.org/wiki/YSEQ
STRs can be used for prediction of haplogroups, but I'm affraid this is not their main goal. If you know your haplogroup is C and you just wanna know the subclade you belong to, I think a SNP Pack would be a better choice.
The price is $99 because it's a Panel, i.e., several SNPs are tested here, not only one. Single SNP testing costs $17 in YSEQ. Other Panels cost between $77 and $99.
YSEQ: https://www.yseq.net/index.php?cPath=27&osCsid=80fa0e642a036f1b48b60abf9de25aad
FTDNA: https://www.familytreedna.com/upgrades.aspx?ot=ADV&category=SNP (select SNP Pack)

 

[Orca1]

I think I would opt for FtDna and pay extra $50. I don't much about YSEQ

 

[Moi-même]

I'm a bit late here...

Orca1, if you haven't ordered yet, know there are $20 coupons issued these weeks, which would make your Y37 at $119. If you still haven't order and I got one in my new batch this monday, I'll give you mine.