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Thread: Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Bell Beaker people arrived in Northern Denmark, they must have been the R1b-U106
    Battle Axe/ Nordic LN Sweden Lilla Beddinge 56 [RISE98] M 2275-2032 BC R1b1a2a1a1 M405/S21/U106 K1b1a1 Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015
    there was no copper, so they made flint daggers instead of copper daggers
    the flint was very high quality and found on that area in Northern Denmark
    then they started trading with the farmers in the Baltic area, this is where the seafaring came in
    goods from the Baltic were traded with western Europe and the Carpathian basin for metals
    it was the Nordic bronze age

    we have only one Scandinavian TRB DNA
    he was not I1

    Gökhem Västergötland [regional TRB] Sweden Gok4 M 4-5 ka I2a1b1 L161.1 xS2639 Genetiker 1+ 0 – op 35 onzeker
    Funnelbeaker 3000 BC Gökhem 4 I2a1b1-L161.1 calls

    could I1 have had contacts with the CW people on the Baltic shores prior to their arrival in southern Scandinavia?

    Yes, to your last question. We had CW move intoScandinavia before Bell Beaker, so I imagine that first it was I1 and R1a CWguys, then R1b-U106 with the development of the Nordic Bronze age. But we do have a non-I1 in TRB so the founder I1 I guess could have come along with the U106 during the emergence of the Nordic Bronze age.

    However it happened we have non IE seafaringwords in Germanic along with the weird I1 concentration. I would like to believe that these I1 were farmers that allied with IE's and passed along seafaring knowledge, but this is probably way too simple as are most of our models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Funny, I was just weighting this possibility before to read your post! I was thinking in an hypothesis for "Germanic" Y U106 staying south the Baltic and giving a lift to I1 peoeple (not too evident for these patriarcal clannic tribes) and the, seeing that in fact the excess of I1 ratio to R-U106 are West and East on the Continent, and not central, I thought in the FBK and its western ramifications, kind of melting pot uniting lands of East with Coast of N-W Europe - a more agricultural (spite maritime too) culture without too clannic system could have helped I1 development before future Proto-Germanics (R-U106) was obliged to take in account and old Y-R1a and "younger" I1 (in demic development).
    Yes, this is possible too. It's something like this. That kind of success isn't random in this context. They had to have some advantage in comparison to others in pre-IE Europe.

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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    I always find it difficult to know whether the H mtDNA haplo group is just plain H or maybe it includes the sub clades but it was not fully analysed. Does anyone know?

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    I'm not an expert in I1 haplogroup. Is correct 5000-4100 ybp for the earlier known branches of this haplogroup? If this origin date showed in YFULL is correct, then I'm extremely surprised. What happened the last 20000 years before this "4 brothers boom"? Looks like they have experienced a heavily extinction.

    Is known to which subclade belong those I1 found in western Iran?

    I think very interesting this Early Neolithic group. Is known approximately where did this first branching happened?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I always find it difficult to know whether the H mtDNA haplo group is just plain H or maybe it includes the sub clades but it was not fully analysed. Does anyone know?
    An H DNA sample is essentially never tested for all H subclades. So we essentially never know if an H is plain H. Usually H DNA samples are only tested for a handful of popular H subclades or not tested for any H subclades. This is especially true for ancient H DNA samples. Enough H DNA samples have been tested for several H subclades for us to know the frequencies of some H subclades though.

    I created a spreadsheet showing the frequencies of H subclades in ancient and modern Europe. See here. The defining feature of European H is a high frequency of H1. A high frequency is also found in NorthWest Africa but not anywhere else in the world. The frequencies of other somewhat popular H subclades like H5 barely differ between different Europeans and Middle Easterners.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    The advent of farming would probably have taken place in the foothills of Palestine or in northern Israel (Galilee). A few spots further afield are the Euphrates river and the Damascus Basin. Sites like Ohalo show us that experimentation with cultivation of grains date to 22,000 years ago (Upper Paleolithic) during the Kebaran industry which was characterized by the use of microlithic tools across the Levant region ( Eastern Mediterranean coast) of West Asia's Fertile Crescent. by 14,000 years ago the Natufian culture of the Epipaleolithic succeeded the Kebaran culture. Named after it's "type site" of Wadi an-Natuf in the West Bank, the Natufian culture was characterized by semi-sedentarism even before the introduction of agriculture. The Natufian communities may be the ancestors of the builders of the first neolithic settlements of the region, which may have been the earliest cities in the world. A recent study showed that the Natufians had both Y-DNA E-M123 and MTDNA N1b. The Pre-Pottery Neolithic A, (PPNA) succeeded the Natufian culture by 10,000 years ago, and then came the advent of farming. the PPNA type site is known as Jericho in Palestine but other notable sites are found across the Jordan valley and further afield as well. The PPNA was succeeded by the PPNB by which timethe Neolithic Revolution and its entire package would have reached lands as far as Cyprus and Southern Anatolia. We are lucky today because we actually have genetic studies with data demonstrating the spread of the Neolithic Revolution and it's genetics. MTDNA from Tell Ramad in southern Syria dated to 8,000 years ago ( during the PPNB) showed that 40% or so of samples belonged to mtdna K. Today, a third of Ashkenazi jewish females belong to this haplogroup, not to mention over 10% of Druze, Palestinians, Kurds, Greek Cypriots and Neolithic Mediterranean Cardial/Epicardial samples, Central European Linear Pottery Culture samples etc. Today it is widely believed that Neolithic European women would have carried mtdna haplogroups K, N and X. Y-dna's G2a, H2, T1a and E-M123 are associated with the expansion of the Neolithic from it's original homeland in a proto-Druze like population around Palestine towards the Aegean sea of Greece and then subsequently across the south-eastern Mediterranean sea.

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