N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

Some other info from archeological finds in modern Kaliningrad:
http://www.kantiana.ru/crossroads/documents/Archaeological_catalogue_eng.pdf

Authors (Polish, Lithuanian and Russian) research viking age finds in modern Kaliningrad, ancient Prussia and finds out Norse warriors among local people. Norse chieftains graves. Large cemetery near Truso. And other finds. Among conclusions is also this note:
"It was within the limits of this interethnic (Balts, Varangians - my comment) contacts route where Grand Duchy of Litowsky came into being, probably as an instrument of control over its (Neman trade route - my comment) uninterrupted activity".

Everything starts to make sense. Piece by piece.

Some new questions still do arise.
1) Scandinavian colonies are attested in Prussia coastal areas (Truso, Kaup and some others, vikings from modern Sweden territory). And then we have Yatwings deeper inland. There are several touchpoints but for my theory to hold we need both sources to be in majority one clan. Can the Baltic ones (Yatwings + Truso colonists) be the same folk? Could it be there were two gangs/clans operating and later conflicting - Rurik's men and alikes (L550, L1025-) on Kiev/Novgorod trade route and Yatwigr's (?) men (L550, L1025+, possibly M2783+) on Neman trade route?

What started as simple speculation, turned into google searches. I still dont give 100% credibility to this idea, but at least I have learned a lot on Varyag Balt early interactions :)
 
Some other info from archeological finds in modern Kaliningrad:
http://www.kantiana.ru/crossroads/documents/Archaeological_catalogue_eng.pdf

Authors (Polish, Lithuanian and Russian) research viking age finds in modern Kaliningrad, ancient Prussia and finds out Norse warriors among local people. Norse chieftains graves. Large cemetery near Truso. And other finds. Among conclusions is also this note:
"It was within the limits of this interethnic (Balts, Varangians - my comment) contacts route where Grand Duchy of Litowsky came into being, probably as an instrument of control over its (Neman trade route - my comment) uninterrupted activity".

Everything starts to make sense. Piece by piece.

Some new questions still do arise.
1) Scandinavian colonies are attested in Prussia coastal areas (Truso, Kaup and some others, vikings from modern Sweden territory). And then we have Yatwings deeper inland. There are several touchpoints but for my theory to hold we need both sources to be in majority one clan. Can the Baltic ones (Yatwings + Truso colonists) be the same folk? Could it be there were two gangs/clans operating and later conflicting - Rurik's men and alikes (L550, L1025-) on Kiev/Novgorod trade route and Yatwigr's (?) men (L550, L1025+, possibly M2783+) on Neman trade route?

What started as simple speculation, turned into google searches. I still dont give 100% credibility to this idea, but at least I have learned a lot on Varyag Balt early interactions :)

What other haplos do you have from the area? I1, I2, R1b?
 
Hard to have anything from this particular area. If we talk about Lithuania then according eupedia:
42% - N1C
38% - R1A
6% - I1
5% - I2
5% - R1B
 
Hard to have anything from this particular area. If we talk about Lithuania then according eupedia:
42% - N1C
38% - R1A
6% - I1
5% - I2
5% - R1B

N1c in sweden is around 10%, they must have really been dominant if they came from Sweden.
 
And some other source:
http://www.academia.edu/1244011/The_Beginning_of_the_Neman_Trade_Route_durning_Viking_Age

If you read Russian, you may enjoy it. If you don't in short - author notices Kaup with big Scandinavian cemetery, military outposts each 30-40 km on Neman river (one day distance for viking ship) with Scandinavian goods in graves, author speculates it could be to protect the trade route, hotspot of Dirham finds in old Prussia, around Truso and Kaup. It seems more dense than in most other places, only competing with Gotland (first picture in the material). One more thing - besides Scandinavian influence he also finds Curonians actively working and cooperating.

Interesting that Truso was almost not mentioned in text, which was also varyag trading center. Probably because Truso was not on Neman river.
 
This is where I sum up my findings, put them into facts/speculation:
a) facts, that archeology shows Scandinavian influence, burials, which can't be done without Scandinavian warlords and rather big population moving in, finds relate to Uppland, Roslagen, Gotland regions;
b) fact/findings that Balt N1C1 is rather young, uniform and overpresented in Balts nobility (almost exclousively ethnic Baltic nobles were N1C1) VS R1A being different clades, different ages, mixed
c) fact that L1025 pre-Baltic clades are found among modern Swedes and Finns, around Uppland and Alands. L555 (pre L1025) as well.
d) speculation, but mainstream one, about Yotwingians/Yatwigr Norse etimology.
e) speculation, at least attested in some sources about Gediminas (L550-> L1025-> L551) being son of Skolmantas (Yatwing warlord and shaman)
f) my own speculation, which comes from above, about Norse etimology for leičiai (leitis) from Old Norse 'leita' - search/look for.

and the main speculation, also my own:
N1C1 clades entered Balts in viking age by Norsified N1C1 men.
 
This is where I sum up my findings, put them into facts/speculation:
a) facts, that archeology shows Scandinavian influence, burials, which can't be done without Scandinavian warlords and rather big population moving in, finds relate to Uppland, Roslagen, Gotland regions;
b) fact/findings that Balt N1C1 is rather young, uniform and overpresented in Balts nobility (almost exclousively ethnic Baltic nobles were N1C1) VS R1A being different clades, different ages, mixed
c) fact that L1025 pre-Baltic clades are found among modern Swedes and Finns, around Uppland and Alands. L555 (pre L1025) as well.
d) speculation, but mainstream one, about Yotwingians/Yatwigr Norse etimology.
e) speculation, at least attested in some sources about Gediminas (L550-> L1025-> L551) being son of Skolmantas (Yatwing warlord and shaman)
f) my own speculation, which comes from above, about Norse etimology for leičiai (leitis) from Old Norse 'leita' - search/look for.

and the main speculation, also my own:
N1C1 clades entered Balts in viking age by Norsified N1C1 men.


To me they seem Baltified, you have evidence they spoke Norse as first language?
If you mean culturally then everyone around the Baltic was "Norsified".
You should look how Baltic Finns lived at the time, you cant tell much from material culture, if there was no Finnic speakers alive you would be calling all the finds Norse.
Thats right, you are.
 
Jatvigr is Norse. Rurik's folk is Norse (you can find in net list of Rus delegation that met some foreign leader(s)). Almost exclousively those guys had Norse names written in Russian manner since the chronicle was Russian, btw among them Jatvjag Gunnarev is mentioned.
I think also Kuningas or Koningas in Finnic comes from Norse. Knyaz in Russian, Kunigaikstis in Lithuanian.
They in few generations got Rusified/Baltified later. I suspect they were already Norsified before, maybe also just for few generations.
 
Jatvigr is Norse. Rurik's folk is Norse (you can find in net list of Rus delegation that met some foreign leader(s)). Almost exclousively those guys had Norse names written in Russian manner since the chronicle was Russian, btw among them Jatvjag Gunnarev is mentioned.
I think also Kuningas or Koningas in Finnic comes from Norse. Knyaz in Russian, Kunigaikstis in Lithuanian.
They in few generations got Rusified/Baltified later. I suspect they were already Norsified before, maybe also just for few generations.

The second delegation especially has Finnic names and Finns used Germanic names also, like today, they still speak Finnish.
 
Finnish pre-Christian names, Iron to Viking Age, many are Germanic loans according to Vahtola, even Kalevala names.

Ahti < Ahti, Achti
Alvettu < Alfheid
Asikka < Asicho
Ammakko < Amacho, Ammako
Aranti < Arand
Artukka, Artukainen < Ardoicus, Artgaud

Eura < Euracus



Halikko < Halicho
Halo < Halo
Harjavalta < Harjawalda
Hattelma < Hadelhalm
Hattu < Hathu, Haddo
Hauho, Hauhia < Hauha
Hervanta < Heriowanda

Ihamuoti < Ehamoti
Ilmari, Ilmarinen < Ildmir, Hildimar
Ingeranta < Ingebrand

Kaukaritsa < Gaugerich
Ketteli < Kettil
Kärväntä < Kaerwant

Lemminkäinen < Lehmbgen

Masku < Masco
Muotia, Muotiainen < Muota,
Muodo, Muotine

Nihattu < Nihhad

Paaskunta < Basigunde
Paro < Baro, Paro
Parta, Parto, Partia < Bard, Barda, Bardo
Pyynikki < Byniki

Rapo < Rabo
Rekotti < Reccoz
Renko < Renco
Rikanti < Rigant

Sotavalta < Zotowald

Tapio < Dabo, Tapo, Dapicho
Turenki < Thuring
Turso < Thursja

Ulvila < Ulv, Ulf
Unto, Untamo < Unto, Unda, Undi

Vanattara < Wanathere
Vermunti < Wermund
Vihti < Vihti
Villanti < Willand
Väinä, Väinämöinen < Weni,
Weniman


These are pure Finnic maybe but to me some have the same vibe.

Anettu
Harmaa
Haukka
Himottu
Hirvas
Hirvi
Huono
Hurtta
Huuhka
Hyvä
Hyväri
Hyvitty
Hyvälempi
Härkä
Härkäpää
Ihalempi
Ilo
Iloittu
Ilmo
Jalkava
Kaivattu
Karhu
Karva
Kettu
Kokko
Kova
Kukko
Kurittu
Kurja
Kurki
Käetty
Käki
Kärppä
Kärsä
Lemmitty
Lintu
Miero
Mustia
Musto
Noita
Nousia
Nuolia
Ohto
Oinas
Orava
Otava
Peura
Pitkä
Pitkäpää
Päivä
Päivi
Pöllö
Pääsky
Rautio
Ruskea
Saukko
Seppä
Suorsa
Terärautia
Toivo
Toivottu
Torittu
Vallittu
Vihattu
Voipa
Yletty
Äijä

http://www.aikakauslehdet.fi/content...nkki/nimet.htm


http://www.aarnimetsa.org/sites/defa...s/lastu08a.pdf
 
I would propose a different etymology for the name Lithuania that would also explain Latvia and Livonia. Wikipedia tells us that ”since the word Lietuva has a suffix (-uva), the original word should have no suffix. A likely candidate is Lietā. Because many Baltic ethnonyms originated from hydronyms, linguists have searched for its origin among local hydronyms. Usually such names evolved through the following process: hydronym → toponym → ethnonym. A small river not far from Kernavė, the core area of the early Lithuanian state and a possible first capital of the would-be Grand Duchy of Lithuania, is usually credited as the source of the name. This river's original name is Lietava. Kernavė is a small town in the southeastern part of Lithuania, in Širvintos district, located on the right bank of the river Neris, on the upper Neris terrace.”

Thus, the ending ”uva” of Lietuva and ”avé” of Kernave would be derived from the word ”upa” meaning river (cfr. Lithuanian/Latvian upe, Welsh afon, Irish abhainn, Basque hibai; Saami appe, Finnish aapa a kind of an open swamp). As regards the first part of the word ”lietā”, in Finnish there is a word ”liete”/”lieto” which means sand by the river (in Inkeri lēte, Estonian leede) and ”letto which means rich treeless fen with lawn-like vegetation. A similar word with the meaning of meadow or grass is also found elsewhere in Europe: Breton leton, Slavic leto summer (which may originally have meant grass time). I would propose that the etymology of Lithuania is “meadowy river”. This same word meaning meadow/grass could then well be also found in the word Latvija, which according to Wikipedia is derived from the name of the ancient Latgalians which have the following forms: “Latgalians, sometimes also Ancient Latvians (Latin: Lethi, Letthigalli, Low German: Letti, Lethi, modern Latvian: latgaļi, letgaļi, leti, variant translations also include Latgallians, Lettigalls or Lettigallians). Latvians would then be “river meadow gallians”.

It is interesting to note that this same idea could also be seen in the name Livonia. According to Wikipedia, the Livonians or Livs are the indigenous inhabitants of Livonia, a large part of what is today northwestern Latvia and southwestern Estonia. They spoke the Uralic Livonian language, a language which was closely related to Estonian and Finnish. In Finnish there is a word “liiva” which means sand by the seashore. A similar word meaning meadow is widespread in Europe: Slovenian liváda, Bulgarian liváda, Albanian livadh, Greek livádi.
 
Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...
 
Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...

The problem is that recent datings dont support that.
 
First I enjoyed your version river for Lats/Lets and sea for Liivs, but then I checked words in dictionaries.

How did you arrive from something which to me means either bog, fen or mud, clay in Finno-Ugric (liete, lieto, leede or letto) to meadow of grass? :) Besides leede apparently does not mean sand by the river but just muddy sand. Latvia has many bogs, mud and clay, so it is ok for etimology version on its own, why meadow? Also Old High German has letto - clay. Which could explain why Latvian ethnonime whatever it was appeared exactly in this form in German written chronicles.

And I have some comments regarding the rest:
Ending -uva/-ava is simply common in Baltic languages - guļava (sleepy person, gulēt+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), Daugava (daug/daudz+ava), for lands, for rivers, for abstract things made of concrete things. It is long not related to upe, if it ever was.

“river meadow gallians” - wrong. In Latvia there are plenty of locations named -gale or -male (-end or -side; I think best English interpretation for both would be -side). Semigallians - (zemgaļi, from zem/low and end/gals) Lowsiders/Lowenders, they live in Latvian lowlands. Just North of Lithuanian Žemaiši who are Lowers, live in Lithuanian lowlands. Lettigallians - letgaļi/latgaļi - Lettsiders/Letenders, they live on the side/end of Letts. Just North of Lithuanians. Compare to Leišmale - archaic way how Latvians called borderlands with Lithuania - Leiši side. Lettimallians :)
 
Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...
I know the general explanation. I propose new one.
 
Here you have a photo from Lieto (a place in southwestern Finland)
http://anninaruottu.fi/lieto/

Here you have a photo from the river Neris (Lietava) next to the town Kernavė
http://regular.neregetalietuva.lt/nuotrauka.en.php?id=9

This Finnish toponym ”Lieto” goes back to the form "leeto" (in the Middle Ages Lethe). It is near the Estonian "leede" (sand bank). In any case, the majority of toponyms in the Lieto area are derived from Estonian words (for example Loukinainen and Moisio).

My etymological dictionary says that the Estonian word ”leede” means ”sand beach” and ”sand bar/bank” and the Google translation is sand bar. This word is found in all Finnic languages with the following meanings: Inkeri ”silt”, Karelian ”sand on the beach, beach, silt”, Lyydi ”sand”, Vepsian ”sand, silt, sand on the beach”, Vatja (dry) sand on the beach, Liivi ”drift sand”.

This root may have a wide distribution in Europe, and, in fact, I noticed that there is also the Italian word ”lido” of unknown origin, as well as the Latin word ”litus”, both meaning coast, beach and riverside. In any case, the meaning in Finnic (Estonian, Finnish) languages fits very well the geography related to toponyms Lietava, Lithuania and Latvia, although you are right that I should perhaps argue that ”Lietava” means only river side and Latvians would then mean “river side gallians”. However, the meaning of a meadow along the river is not very far, and many etymologies usually allow much more far-fetched comparisons.

In any case, the Baltic area and Finnic area (=the area around the Gulf of Finland) form a close cultural unity and their archaelogical history is closely linked, so I think that it is only natural that they would share the same words. Nowadays, we also know that they are genetically close to each other and share this yDNa N1c which is under examination here.

It is funny that usually nobody wants to be associated with an East Asian male N1c but once it is detected in the modern and ancient nobility, Lithuanian N1c becomes a Norse y line and the Rurikid line becomes a Swedish y line, although these lines are rare in these countries and their origin must be Finnic (=south of the Gulf of Finland). By the way, Wikipedia tells us that Rurik’s ”N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns”. I would suggest that Rurik was born somewhere on the Finnish coast, where he got involved with the Varangians and, due to his success, his line spread to Sweden.
 
Kristina :)
Before claiming unknown origin of Italian lido which came from Latin litus please check the wictionary:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/litus#Latin
First sentence: "Probably from Proto-Indo-European *lei (“to flow”), perhaps the same source as the name of Lithuania." :)

There are many words that are shared on Proto-IE level between Baltic languages and Latin.

Please also re-read my explanation on Gallians. There are no such thing in Latvian language, trust me I speak it. But we have -galieši, -gaļi, in English they would be siders or enders. Semigallians are on Žemaičai side. Lettigallians are on Lietuva side. That is it. I sometimes do bad stuff to my hair when I see a smart person coming up with Semigallians as semi Gallians :) That is absolutely unprofessional and shows that person has researched nothing on our language before proposing mysterious links.

Also no need to create exact Lietuva, for etimilogy purposes root "let", "liet", "leit" has to be proposed and later explained. There is this nice Baltic word "liet" - "to pour", "lietus" - "rain". Your proposal is also valid as a version. Be it mud or meadow or pouring water, all are valid versions. I prefer leičai version, since we call Lithuanian "leitis" and Lithuania "leišmale" since long, long times ago.

I think when you say "among the Sweddish-speaking Finns" I agree with you. But I would go farther than that. Have you heard of Kvenland? According to map on this site Kvens (which later became Sweddish speaking Finns) lived in Northern 2/3 of Sweden + Finland at early viking times.
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ScandinaviaFinland.htm

Also I have noticed another thing paternally.
L550+L1025- can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala
L550+L1025+, M2783- also can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala, but those are very rare cases
L550+L1025+M2783+ it is Baltic clade.

It seems that L1025 tribe suffered heavy losses somewhere at viking ages. The L1025 clan M2783 who went into South Baltics survived in big numbers. The L1025 clan Y4706 which stayed in FennoScandia was heavily beaten, almost dissappeared. It is so rare that not long ago (few months ago) everyone thought simply L1025 was South Baltics.

I think a lot of surprises await us once ancient dna from both sides of Baltics appear. First, everyone will be surprised to see no South Baltic clade in Balts in early AD samples. Second, everyone will be surprised seeing much more N1C1 in Sweden in early AD samples (in upper 2/3 of Sweden). And I will be all smiles: "I told ya!" :)
 
Kristina :)
Before claiming unknown origin of Italian lido which came from Latin litus please check the wictionary:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/litus#Latin
First sentence: "Probably from Proto-Indo-European *lei (“to flow”), perhaps the same source as the name of Lithuania." :)

There are many words that are shared on Proto-IE level between Baltic languages and Latin.

Please also re-read my explanation on Gallians. There are no such thing in Latvian language, trust me I speak it. But we have -galieši, -gaļi, in English they would be siders or enders. Semigallians are on Žemaičai side. Lettigallians are on Lietuva side. That is it. I sometimes do bad stuff to my hair when I see a smart person coming up with Semigallians as semi Gallians :) That is absolutely unprofessional and shows that person has researched nothing on our language before proposing mysterious links.

Also no need to create exact Lietuva, for etimilogy purposes root "let", "liet", "leit" has to be proposed and later explained. There is this nice Baltic word "liet" - "to pour", "lietus" - "rain". Your proposal is also valid as a version. Be it mud or meadow or pouring water, all are valid versions. I prefer leičai version, since we call Lithuanian "leitis" and Lithuania "leišmale" since long, long times ago.

I think when you say "among the Sweddish-speaking Finns" I agree with you. But I would go farther than that. Have you heard of Kvenland? According to map on this site Kvens (which later became Sweddish speaking Finns) lived in Northern 2/3 of Sweden + Finland at early viking times.
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ScandinaviaFinland.htm

Also I have noticed another thing paternally.
L550+L1025- can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala
L550+L1025+, M2783- also can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala, but those are very rare cases
L550+L1025+M2783+ it is Baltic clade.

It seems that L1025 tribe suffered heavy losses somewhere at viking ages. The L1025 clan M2783 who went into South Baltics survived in big numbers. The L1025 clan Y4706 which stayed in FennoScandia was heavily beaten, almost dissappeared. It is so rare that not long ago (few months ago) everyone thought simply L1025 was South Baltics.

I think a lot of surprises await us once ancient dna from both sides of Baltics appear. First, everyone will be surprised to see no South Baltic clade in Balts in early AD samples. Second, everyone will be surprised seeing much more N1C1 in Sweden in early AD samples (in upper 2/3 of Sweden). And I will be all smiles: "I told ya!" :)


The 550 and 1025 people are in Finland, deep inland in old family lines, not in Swedish speaking areas.
At the time you are speaking about there where no Swedish speakers in Finland!
The areas where that are now Swedish speaking have toponomy from originally Finnish names or the areas where under the sea at the time!

In 500-1000AD all of modern Finland was dominated by Finnish language, Sami in the more remote parts.

The L1025 clan Y4706 which stayed in FennoScandia was heavily beaten, almost dissappeared.

Event that would fit this is Briger Jarls occupation of West Finland after he had decimated the Svea/Uppsala nobels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sparrsätra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

Birger Jarl seems to have headed for Finland just after having both crushed theFolkung uprising of 1247-1248 and finalized the Treaty of Lödöse with Norway earlier in the summer of 1249.
Sweden's previous attempts to gain a foothold in Estonia in 1220 may have urged Sweden to settle for what was still available. Eric's Chronicle also points out the threat from Russians, mentioning that the "Russian king" had now lost the conquered land.

I like that you think out of the box but you really should study the period in Finland and Estonia more.
 
Also look at the Svea and Geats, Skara was the center of Geats, Uppsala the Sveas, they where not the same and Sveas dominated the Geats.

Birger Jarl was an Geat and basically started a coup e'etat, he ended the old Uppsala domain, he basically broke the constitution with the help of foreign mercenaries.

[h=1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uppsala_%C3%B6d[/h]
 

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