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Thread: N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

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    And some other source:
    http://www.academia.edu/1244011/The_...ing_Viking_Age

    If you read Russian, you may enjoy it. If you don't in short - author notices Kaup with big Scandinavian cemetery, military outposts each 30-40 km on Neman river (one day distance for viking ship) with Scandinavian goods in graves, author speculates it could be to protect the trade route, hotspot of Dirham finds in old Prussia, around Truso and Kaup. It seems more dense than in most other places, only competing with Gotland (first picture in the material). One more thing - besides Scandinavian influence he also finds Curonians actively working and cooperating.

    Interesting that Truso was almost not mentioned in text, which was also varyag trading center. Probably because Truso was not on Neman river.

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    This is where I sum up my findings, put them into facts/speculation:
    a) facts, that archeology shows Scandinavian influence, burials, which can't be done without Scandinavian warlords and rather big population moving in, finds relate to Uppland, Roslagen, Gotland regions;
    b) fact/findings that Balt N1C1 is rather young, uniform and overpresented in Balts nobility (almost exclousively ethnic Baltic nobles were N1C1) VS R1A being different clades, different ages, mixed
    c) fact that L1025 pre-Baltic clades are found among modern Swedes and Finns, around Uppland and Alands. L555 (pre L1025) as well.
    d) speculation, but mainstream one, about Yotwingians/Yatwigr Norse etimology.
    e) speculation, at least attested in some sources about Gediminas (L550-> L1025-> L551) being son of Skolmantas (Yatwing warlord and shaman)
    f) my own speculation, which comes from above, about Norse etimology for leičiai (leitis) from Old Norse 'leita' - search/look for.

    and the main speculation, also my own:
    N1C1 clades entered Balts in viking age by Norsified N1C1 men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    This is where I sum up my findings, put them into facts/speculation:
    a) facts, that archeology shows Scandinavian influence, burials, which can't be done without Scandinavian warlords and rather big population moving in, finds relate to Uppland, Roslagen, Gotland regions;
    b) fact/findings that Balt N1C1 is rather young, uniform and overpresented in Balts nobility (almost exclousively ethnic Baltic nobles were N1C1) VS R1A being different clades, different ages, mixed
    c) fact that L1025 pre-Baltic clades are found among modern Swedes and Finns, around Uppland and Alands. L555 (pre L1025) as well.
    d) speculation, but mainstream one, about Yotwingians/Yatwigr Norse etimology.
    e) speculation, at least attested in some sources about Gediminas (L550-> L1025-> L551) being son of Skolmantas (Yatwing warlord and shaman)
    f) my own speculation, which comes from above, about Norse etimology for leičiai (leitis) from Old Norse 'leita' - search/look for.

    and the main speculation, also my own:
    N1C1 clades entered Balts in viking age by Norsified N1C1 men.

    To me they seem Baltified, you have evidence they spoke Norse as first language?
    If you mean culturally then everyone around the Baltic was "Norsified".
    You should look how Baltic Finns lived at the time, you cant tell much from material culture, if there was no Finnic speakers alive you would be calling all the finds Norse.
    Thats right, you are.

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    Jatvigr is Norse. Rurik's folk is Norse (you can find in net list of Rus delegation that met some foreign leader(s)). Almost exclousively those guys had Norse names written in Russian manner since the chronicle was Russian, btw among them Jatvjag Gunnarev is mentioned.
    I think also Kuningas or Koningas in Finnic comes from Norse. Knyaz in Russian, Kunigaikstis in Lithuanian.
    They in few generations got Rusified/Baltified later. I suspect they were already Norsified before, maybe also just for few generations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Jatvigr is Norse. Rurik's folk is Norse (you can find in net list of Rus delegation that met some foreign leader(s)). Almost exclousively those guys had Norse names written in Russian manner since the chronicle was Russian, btw among them Jatvjag Gunnarev is mentioned.
    I think also Kuningas or Koningas in Finnic comes from Norse. Knyaz in Russian, Kunigaikstis in Lithuanian.
    They in few generations got Rusified/Baltified later. I suspect they were already Norsified before, maybe also just for few generations.
    The second delegation especially has Finnic names and Finns used Germanic names also, like today, they still speak Finnish.

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    Finnish pre-Christian names, Iron to Viking Age, many are Germanic loans according to Vahtola, even Kalevala names.

    Ahti < Ahti, Achti
    Alvettu < Alfheid
    Asikka < Asicho
    Ammakko < Amacho, Ammako
    Aranti < Arand
    Artukka, Artukainen < Ardoicus, Artgaud

    Eura < Euracus



    Halikko < Halicho
    Halo < Halo
    Harjavalta < Harjawalda
    Hattelma < Hadelhalm
    Hattu < Hathu, Haddo
    Hauho, Hauhia < Hauha
    Hervanta < Heriowanda

    Ihamuoti < Ehamoti
    Ilmari, Ilmarinen < Ildmir, Hildimar
    Ingeranta < Ingebrand

    Kaukaritsa < Gaugerich
    Ketteli < Kettil
    Kärväntä < Kaerwant

    Lemminkäinen < Lehmbgen

    Masku < Masco
    Muotia, Muotiainen < Muota,
    Muodo, Muotine

    Nihattu < Nihhad

    Paaskunta < Basigunde
    Paro < Baro, Paro
    Parta, Parto, Partia < Bard, Barda, Bardo
    Pyynikki < Byniki

    Rapo < Rabo
    Rekotti < Reccoz
    Renko < Renco
    Rikanti < Rigant

    Sotavalta < Zotowald

    Tapio < Dabo, Tapo, Dapicho
    Turenki < Thuring
    Turso < Thursja

    Ulvila < Ulv, Ulf
    Unto, Untamo < Unto, Unda, Undi

    Vanattara < Wanathere
    Vermunti < Wermund
    Vihti < Vihti
    Villanti < Willand
    Väinä, Väinämöinen < Weni,
    Weniman


    These are pure Finnic maybe but to me some have the same vibe.

    Anettu
    Harmaa
    Haukka
    Himottu
    Hirvas
    Hirvi
    Huono
    Hurtta
    Huuhka
    Hyvä
    Hyväri
    Hyvitty
    Hyvälempi
    Härkä
    Härkäpää
    Ihalempi
    Ilo
    Iloittu
    Ilmo
    Jalkava
    Kaivattu
    Karhu
    Karva
    Kettu
    Kokko
    Kova
    Kukko
    Kurittu
    Kurja
    Kurki
    Käetty
    Käki
    Kärppä
    Kärsä
    Lemmitty
    Lintu
    Miero
    Mustia
    Musto
    Noita
    Nousia
    Nuolia
    Ohto
    Oinas
    Orava
    Otava
    Peura
    Pitkä
    Pitkäpää
    Päivä
    Päivi
    Pöllö
    Pääsky
    Rautio
    Ruskea
    Saukko
    Seppä
    Suorsa
    Terärautia
    Toivo
    Toivottu
    Torittu
    Vallittu
    Vihattu
    Voipa
    Yletty
    Äijä

    http://www.aikakauslehdet.fi/content...nkki/nimet.htm


    http://www.aarnimetsa.org/sites/defa...s/lastu08a.pdf

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    I would propose a different etymology for the name Lithuania that would also explain Latvia and Livonia. Wikipedia tells us that ”since the word Lietuva has a suffix (-uva), the original word should have no suffix. A likely candidate is Lietā. Because many Baltic ethnonyms originated from hydronyms, linguists have searched for its origin among local hydronyms. Usually such names evolved through the following process: hydronym → toponym → ethnonym. A small river not far from Kernavė, the core area of the early Lithuanian state and a possible first capital of the would-be Grand Duchy of Lithuania, is usually credited as the source of the name. This river's original name is Lietava. Kernavė is a small town in the southeastern part of Lithuania, in Širvintos district, located on the right bank of the river Neris, on the upper Neris terrace.”

    Thus, the ending ”uva” of Lietuva and ”avé” of Kernave would be derived from the word ”upa” meaning river (cfr. Lithuanian/Latvian upe, Welsh afon, Irish abhainn, Basque hibai; Saami appe, Finnish aapa a kind of an open swamp). As regards the first part of the word ”lietā”, in Finnish there is a word ”liete”/”lieto” which means sand by the river (in Inkeri lēte, Estonian leede) and ”letto which means rich treeless fen with lawn-like vegetation. A similar word with the meaning of meadow or grass is also found elsewhere in Europe: Breton leton, Slavic leto summer (which may originally have meant grass time). I would propose that the etymology of Lithuania is “meadowy river”. This same word meaning meadow/grass could then well be also found in the word Latvija, which according to Wikipedia is derived from the name of the ancient Latgalians which have the following forms: “Latgalians, sometimes also Ancient Latvians (Latin: Lethi, Letthigalli, Low German: Letti, Lethi, modern Latvian: latgaļi, letgaļi, leti, variant translations also include Latgallians, Lettigalls or Lettigallians). Latvians would then be “river meadow gallians”.

    It is interesting to note that this same idea could also be seen in the name Livonia. According to Wikipedia, the Livonians or Livs are the indigenous inhabitants of Livonia, a large part of what is today northwestern Latvia and southwestern Estonia. They spoke the Uralic Livonian language, a language which was closely related to Estonian and Finnish. In Finnish there is a word “liiva” which means sand by the seashore. A similar word meaning meadow is widespread in Europe: Slovenian liváda, Bulgarian liváda, Albanian livadh, Greek livádi.

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    Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...
    The problem is that recent datings dont support that.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    First I enjoyed your version river for Lats/Lets and sea for Liivs, but then I checked words in dictionaries.

    How did you arrive from something which to me means either bog, fen or mud, clay in Finno-Ugric (liete, lieto, leede or letto) to meadow of grass? :) Besides leede apparently does not mean sand by the river but just muddy sand. Latvia has many bogs, mud and clay, so it is ok for etimology version on its own, why meadow? Also Old High German has letto - clay. Which could explain why Latvian ethnonime whatever it was appeared exactly in this form in German written chronicles.

    And I have some comments regarding the rest:
    Ending -uva/-ava is simply common in Baltic languages - guļava (sleepy person, gulēt+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), Daugava (daug/daudz+ava), for lands, for rivers, for abstract things made of concrete things. It is long not related to upe, if it ever was.

    “river meadow gallians” - wrong. In Latvia there are plenty of locations named -gale or -male (-end or -side; I think best English interpretation for both would be -side). Semigallians - (zemgaļi, from zem/low and end/gals) Lowsiders/Lowenders, they live in Latvian lowlands. Just North of Lithuanian Žemaiši who are Lowers, live in Lithuanian lowlands. Lettigallians - letgaļi/latgaļi - Lettsiders/Letenders, they live on the side/end of Letts. Just North of Lithuanians. Compare to Leišmale - archaic way how Latvians called borderlands with Lithuania - Leiši side. Lettimallians :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...
    I know the general explanation. I propose new one.

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    Here you have a photo from Lieto (a place in southwestern Finland)
    http://anninaruottu.fi/lieto/

    Here you have a photo from the river Neris (Lietava) next to the town Kernavė
    http://regular.neregetalietuva.lt/nuotrauka.en.php?id=9

    This Finnish toponym ”Lieto” goes back to the form "leeto" (in the Middle Ages Lethe). It is near the Estonian "leede" (sand bank). In any case, the majority of toponyms in the Lieto area are derived from Estonian words (for example Loukinainen and Moisio).

    My etymological dictionary says that the Estonian word ”leede” means ”sand beach” and ”sand bar/bank” and the Google translation is sand bar. This word is found in all Finnic languages with the following meanings: Inkeri ”silt”, Karelian ”sand on the beach, beach, silt”, Lyydi ”sand”, Vepsian ”sand, silt, sand on the beach”, Vatja (dry) sand on the beach, Liivi ”drift sand”.

    This root may have a wide distribution in Europe, and, in fact, I noticed that there is also the Italian word ”lido” of unknown origin, as well as the Latin word ”litus”, both meaning coast, beach and riverside. In any case, the meaning in Finnic (Estonian, Finnish) languages fits very well the geography related to toponyms Lietava, Lithuania and Latvia, although you are right that I should perhaps argue that ”Lietava” means only river side and Latvians would then mean “river side gallians”. However, the meaning of a meadow along the river is not very far, and many etymologies usually allow much more far-fetched comparisons.

    In any case, the Baltic area and Finnic area (=the area around the Gulf of Finland) form a close cultural unity and their archaelogical history is closely linked, so I think that it is only natural that they would share the same words. Nowadays, we also know that they are genetically close to each other and share this yDNa N1c which is under examination here.

    It is funny that usually nobody wants to be associated with an East Asian male N1c but once it is detected in the modern and ancient nobility, Lithuanian N1c becomes a Norse y line and the Rurikid line becomes a Swedish y line, although these lines are rare in these countries and their origin must be Finnic (=south of the Gulf of Finland). By the way, Wikipedia tells us that Rurik’s ”N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns”. I would suggest that Rurik was born somewhere on the Finnish coast, where he got involved with the Varangians and, due to his success, his line spread to Sweden.

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    Kristina :)
    Before claiming unknown origin of Italian lido which came from Latin litus please check the wictionary:
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/litus#Latin
    First sentence: "Probably from Proto-Indo-European *lei (“to flow”), perhaps the same source as the name of Lithuania." :)

    There are many words that are shared on Proto-IE level between Baltic languages and Latin.

    Please also re-read my explanation on Gallians. There are no such thing in Latvian language, trust me I speak it. But we have -galieši, -gaļi, in English they would be siders or enders. Semigallians are on Žemaičai side. Lettigallians are on Lietuva side. That is it. I sometimes do bad stuff to my hair when I see a smart person coming up with Semigallians as semi Gallians :) That is absolutely unprofessional and shows that person has researched nothing on our language before proposing mysterious links.

    Also no need to create exact Lietuva, for etimilogy purposes root "let", "liet", "leit" has to be proposed and later explained. There is this nice Baltic word "liet" - "to pour", "lietus" - "rain". Your proposal is also valid as a version. Be it mud or meadow or pouring water, all are valid versions. I prefer leičai version, since we call Lithuanian "leitis" and Lithuania "leišmale" since long, long times ago.

    I think when you say "among the Sweddish-speaking Finns" I agree with you. But I would go farther than that. Have you heard of Kvenland? According to map on this site Kvens (which later became Sweddish speaking Finns) lived in Northern 2/3 of Sweden + Finland at early viking times.
    http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...viaFinland.htm

    Also I have noticed another thing paternally.
    L550+L1025- can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala
    L550+L1025+, M2783- also can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala, but those are very rare cases
    L550+L1025+M2783+ it is Baltic clade.

    It seems that L1025 tribe suffered heavy losses somewhere at viking ages. The L1025 clan M2783 who went into South Baltics survived in big numbers. The L1025 clan Y4706 which stayed in FennoScandia was heavily beaten, almost dissappeared. It is so rare that not long ago (few months ago) everyone thought simply L1025 was South Baltics.

    I think a lot of surprises await us once ancient dna from both sides of Baltics appear. First, everyone will be surprised to see no South Baltic clade in Balts in early AD samples. Second, everyone will be surprised seeing much more N1C1 in Sweden in early AD samples (in upper 2/3 of Sweden). And I will be all smiles: "I told ya!" :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Kristina :)
    Before claiming unknown origin of Italian lido which came from Latin litus please check the wictionary:
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/litus#Latin
    First sentence: "Probably from Proto-Indo-European *lei (“to flow”), perhaps the same source as the name of Lithuania." :)

    There are many words that are shared on Proto-IE level between Baltic languages and Latin.

    Please also re-read my explanation on Gallians. There are no such thing in Latvian language, trust me I speak it. But we have -galieši, -gaļi, in English they would be siders or enders. Semigallians are on Žemaičai side. Lettigallians are on Lietuva side. That is it. I sometimes do bad stuff to my hair when I see a smart person coming up with Semigallians as semi Gallians :) That is absolutely unprofessional and shows that person has researched nothing on our language before proposing mysterious links.

    Also no need to create exact Lietuva, for etimilogy purposes root "let", "liet", "leit" has to be proposed and later explained. There is this nice Baltic word "liet" - "to pour", "lietus" - "rain". Your proposal is also valid as a version. Be it mud or meadow or pouring water, all are valid versions. I prefer leičai version, since we call Lithuanian "leitis" and Lithuania "leišmale" since long, long times ago.

    I think when you say "among the Sweddish-speaking Finns" I agree with you. But I would go farther than that. Have you heard of Kvenland? According to map on this site Kvens (which later became Sweddish speaking Finns) lived in Northern 2/3 of Sweden + Finland at early viking times.
    http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...viaFinland.htm

    Also I have noticed another thing paternally.
    L550+L1025- can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala
    L550+L1025+, M2783- also can be found in Scandinavia, around Uppsala, but those are very rare cases
    L550+L1025+M2783+ it is Baltic clade.

    It seems that L1025 tribe suffered heavy losses somewhere at viking ages. The L1025 clan M2783 who went into South Baltics survived in big numbers. The L1025 clan Y4706 which stayed in FennoScandia was heavily beaten, almost dissappeared. It is so rare that not long ago (few months ago) everyone thought simply L1025 was South Baltics.

    I think a lot of surprises await us once ancient dna from both sides of Baltics appear. First, everyone will be surprised to see no South Baltic clade in Balts in early AD samples. Second, everyone will be surprised seeing much more N1C1 in Sweden in early AD samples (in upper 2/3 of Sweden). And I will be all smiles: "I told ya!" :)

    The 550 and 1025 people are in Finland, deep inland in old family lines, not in Swedish speaking areas.
    At the time you are speaking about there where no Swedish speakers in Finland!
    The areas where that are now Swedish speaking have toponomy from originally Finnish names or the areas where under the sea at the time!

    In 500-1000AD all of modern Finland was dominated by Finnish language, Sami in the more remote parts.

    The L1025 clan Y4706 which stayed in FennoScandia was heavily beaten, almost dissappeared.
    Event that would fit this is Briger Jarls occupation of West Finland after he had decimated the Svea/Uppsala nobels

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sparrs%C3%A4tra

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

    Birger Jarl seems to have headed for Finland just after having both crushed theFolkung uprising of 1247-1248 and finalized the Treaty of Lödöse with Norway earlier in the summer of 1249.
    Sweden's previous attempts to gain a foothold in Estonia in 1220 may have urged Sweden to settle for what was still available. Eric's Chronicle also points out the threat from Russians, mentioning that the "Russian king" had now lost the conquered land.
    I like that you think out of the box but you really should study the period in Finland and Estonia more.

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    Also look at the Svea and Geats, Skara was the center of Geats, Uppsala the Sveas, they where not the same and Sveas dominated the Geats.

    Birger Jarl was an Geat and basically started a coup e'etat, he ended the old Uppsala domain, he basically broke the constitution with the help of foreign mercenaries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uppsala_%C3%B6d


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Here you have a photo from Lieto (a place in southwestern Finland)
    http://anninaruottu.fi/lieto/

    Here you have a photo from the river Neris (Lietava) next to the town Kernavė
    http://regular.neregetalietuva.lt/nuotrauka.en.php?id=9

    This Finnish toponym ”Lieto” goes back to the form "leeto" (in the Middle Ages Lethe). It is near the Estonian "leede" (sand bank). In any case, the majority of toponyms in the Lieto area are derived from Estonian words (for example Loukinainen and Moisio).

    My etymological dictionary says that the Estonian word ”leede” means ”sand beach” and ”sand bar/bank” and the Google translation is sand bar. This word is found in all Finnic languages with the following meanings: Inkeri ”silt”, Karelian ”sand on the beach, beach, silt”, Lyydi ”sand”, Vepsian ”sand, silt, sand on the beach”, Vatja (dry) sand on the beach, Liivi ”drift sand”.

    This root may have a wide distribution in Europe, and, in fact, I noticed that there is also the Italian word ”lido” of unknown origin, as well as the Latin word ”litus”, both meaning coast, beach and riverside. In any case, the meaning in Finnic (Estonian, Finnish) languages fits very well the geography related to toponyms Lietava, Lithuania and Latvia, although you are right that I should perhaps argue that ”Lietava” means only river side and Latvians would then mean “river side gallians”. However, the meaning of a meadow along the river is not very far, and many etymologies usually allow much more far-fetched comparisons.

    In any case, the Baltic area and Finnic area (=the area around the Gulf of Finland) form a close cultural unity and their archaelogical history is closely linked, so I think that it is only natural that they would share the same words. Nowadays, we also know that they are genetically close to each other and share this yDNa N1c which is under examination here.

    It is funny that usually nobody wants to be associated with an East Asian male N1c but once it is detected in the modern and ancient nobility, Lithuanian N1c becomes a Norse y line and the Rurikid line becomes a Swedish y line, although these lines are rare in these countries and their origin must be Finnic (=south of the Gulf of Finland). By the way, Wikipedia tells us that Rurik’s ”N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns”. I would suggest that Rurik was born somewhere on the Finnish coast, where he got involved with the Varangians and, due to his success, his line spread to Sweden.
    The Italian word for beach is not Lido, it is SPIAGGIA

    the venetian word for beach is LIDO

    according to Paabo, venetic language originates from Finnic
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Forget that ”gallian” in my proposal if it disturbs you. I took it directly from Wikipedia (Latgalians, sometimes also Ancient Latvians (Latin: Lethi, Letthigalli, Low German: Letti, Lethi, modern Latvian: latgaļi, letgaļi, leti, variant translations also include Latgallians, Lettigalls or Lettigallians) and left it there, because I was not proposing any etymology to it. You did it yourself and I appreciate it.

    Moreover, I remind you that first you proposed yourself that Lithuania and Latvia go back to the same word: ”In time from Norse 'leit', East Baltic form 'liet' would appear for Lietuva. From 'let' (Letten, letiņš) used by German overlords 'lat' would be derived for Latvija.”

    I do not think that Finland Swedes agree with you and argue that they came from Kvenland (=from the North, even from Lapland), and their original yDNA was the Karelian or Saami N1c or a more autochtonous northern y line that may have disappeared altogether. Neither am I convinced that this Rurikid y line that is found in coastal Swedish speaking Finns is a new migrant y line from Sweden. Usually Finland Swedes are considered autochtonous inhabitants of the Finnish coast. Moreover, I would imagine that it was a big advantage for Rurik in Novgorod area if he was fluent in both Swedish and Finnish.

    IE-languages are spoken almost everywhere in Europe and they have been in contact with all languages of Europe, so this means that you can argue that almost all words in Europe are IE words if the criterium is that they are found at least in a few languages. In my opinion, IE-languages are a behemoth or a black hole which is gobbling up everything on its way.

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    Kristina, Kvenland included 2/3 of Sweden + West Finland in some maps, not the far North.
    Ukko, thanks, I will read on Birger Jarl more.
    I am focused on Uppsala because archeology shows Baltic finds of Viking age to be related to Sweddish area around Uppsala. It could be that L1025 clans lived around there and got decimated or fled to Finland.
    Btw those L1025 samples that are not m2782 that I had seen, had Sweddish surnames? Can you check on your sources how many Swe and Fin surnames are there?
    Kristina, Ukko, trust me I admire your nation. And always root for Finland in ice hockey (that is after Latvia ofc).
    I see Norse culture as blend of Germanic+Finnic. Not as Germanic enemy of Finnic.
    And now I started to see L1025 Finnic tribe as one of co-creators of Norse. They lived on Roslagen islands and perhaps spoke some heavily norsified finnic dialects, like paralel with Old Prussian samples from XVIII century that were bland of Germanic/Baltic, their names though were Germanic then.
    They were the first to be hit by the infamous Birger, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Kristina, Kvenland included 2/3 of Sweden + West Finland in some maps, not the far North.
    Ukko, thanks, I will read on Birger Jarl more.
    I am focused on Uppsala because archeology shows Baltic finds of Viking age to be related to Sweddish area around Uppsala. It could be that L1025 clans lived around there and got decimated or fled to Finland.
    Btw those L1025 samples that are not m2782 that I had seen, had Sweddish surnames? Can you check on your sources how many Swe and Fin surnames are there?
    Kristina, Ukko, trust me I admire your nation. And always root for Finland in ice hockey (that is after Latvia ofc).
    I see Norse culture as blend of Germanic+Finnic. Not as Germanic enemy of Finnic.
    And now I started to see L1025 Finnic tribe as one of co-creators of Norse. They lived on Roslagen islands and perhaps spoke some heavily norsified finnic dialects, like paralel with Old Prussian samples from XVIII century that were bland of Germanic/Baltic, their names though were Germanic then.
    They were the first to be hit by the infamous Birger, right?

    Thanks but this is not some nationalistic issue for me, previously I was sure they where pure Swedes , lately I have started to doubt as the pattern of the migration does not make much sense.
    I think I will change my mind many times before this is sorted.

    I read a Swedish re-analysis from Svealand archeological finds and the Swedish author suspected a Norse-Finnic hybrid culture so there is talk around this.
    Finnish is a very similar to germanic culture, actually the language is the only thing separating us, but the cultural flow from Finnic to Norse would be news.

    It is very important to find out when the N1c got in to Svea proper and the Uppsala area, also Gotland, it also has almost 10% N1c.

    There really is no good map on Kvenland but the regions in modern Finland where all Finnic in this period, there is no question about it by any expert.
    Norse was lingua franca but nothing more, even Åland was in majority Finnish speaking until the end of Viking Age.

    Are you talking about the historical surnames or present ones?
    If you are talking about historical names then you wont find any Finnis names, they where almost all written down in the Swedish from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Italian word for beach is not Lido, it is SPIAGGIA

    the venetian word for beach is LIDO

    according to Paabo, venetic language originates from Finnic
    Oh so this is why Venetians built their city on water?
    To remind them of the swamps from where they came?

    I would remind you another word Italian aqua,Romanian apa and Finnish aapa meaning acording to Kristiina some kind of swamp.
    Maybe this word is also Fino-Ugrian influence in Romanian and Italian,who knows.
    Romanian apa - Italian acqua - means water.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I read Gotland was "cleaned" by Teutones Order, so unless there was later inflow of N, which btw is possible, 10% is what was left uncleaned.
    On L1025+ m2782-, I think the guys that I had seen with this particular set up had Sweddish surnames and lived around Uppsala, although I recall few Finnish as well. I will check once more, info should be in relevant topics at molgen forum.
    About how N got in Swe I don't know yet, but Liivi in Latvia survived best and for longest on the sea side. Even until early XX century some fisher villages.
    History of N in Sweden is a new subject for me and intriguing one. My knowledge on SWE history and filology is low, a lot of reading ahead.

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    Although I know one thing for sure. It is the loss of -az for male names after 500ad in Norse. I don't insist on that yet, but it could be explained by rather large non-native population that started use Norse.
    What is also known is general depopulation of Europe after 500 AD. Wiki - extreme weather conditions (forgot the year) + Justinian plague (I hope I had it right). Around 50% of population was lost. So, if Germanic folk had hard times, maybe Finnic folk survived harsh times better and pushed South.
    Or even better. It was always there. The Kvenland map that I think you showed on Eupedia matches perfectly borders of two different forest types. Same forest types divided IE (Balts) and FU tribes on Eastern Baltic since bronze age.
    Just guessing above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Oh so this is why Venetians built their city on water?
    To remind them of the swamps from where they came?

    I would remind you another word Italian aqua,Romanian apa and Finnish aapa meaning acording to Kristiina some kind of swamp.
    Maybe this word is also Fino-Ugrian influence in Romanian and Italian,who knows.
    Romanian apa - Italian acqua - means water.
    What about the river name Oka?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Italian word for beach is not Lido, it is SPIAGGIA

    the venetian word for beach is LIDO

    according to Paabo, venetic language originates from Finnic
    According to Vékony Gábor Vistula Veneti were Finno-Ugric people.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1bor_V%C3%A9kony

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    According to Vékony Gábor Vistula Veneti were Finno-Ugric people.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1bor_V%C3%A9kony
    We might never know who they really were, especially if scholars can't even agree on exact location. In future through genetic testing of peoples through history we might be able to put some picture together who was who, and where did they go.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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