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Thread: N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ukko, after extensive reading and search of Sweddish viking historical info in wiki I think I found something. I need to consolidate my findings, but currently fingers I found point to this:
    1. There was a Yingling Dynasty in Sweden that came from Eastern Land (Finland). It was proto-historical thing. The last king was Ingjald Illrade according to most historians. But there is another variant - Moreover, both in Icelandic sources and in the Gesta Danorum, king Sigurd Ring would become the ancestor of the houses of Ragnar Lodbrok and would thus be the semi-legendary ancestor of the House of Munsö through Björn Ironside (wiki)
    2. House of Munso ruled from 750/800 until 1060, (Rurik got to rule Rus in 862) end of this dynasty marks few things:
    a) according to wiki: diplomacy between Varyangian Kingdom of Russia and Sweden Tribes ceased around 1050
    b) throne went into hands of dynasty from Vastergotland (Stenkils) who were keen on promotion of Christianity

    Those events (throne) apparently also added some propeller to I1 clade popularity in Sweden, since another Geat clan king Birger Jarl was found I1 and I1 hotspot seems to be former Geat lands in Sweden.

    As usual some speculations:
    - Apparently since Yinglings time who held throne in Uppsala, N1C1 was there, and Munso Dynasty was N1C1. Problem to direct descending from Yinglings is Ragnar Lodbrok as piece in the chain. If that guy was N1C1, I suppose much more N1C1 blood would be around also in Western countries.
    - Russian Varrangians knew this and were also N1C1 related clans. Probably Rurik even was from the Munso line directly. Prussian/Lithuanian Neman trade company probably was related clan. Relations ceased between Rus and Swe when Geats assumed throne.
    - With rather big certainty one can say they were not Finnish speaking as first language by then. As attested by viking dynasties in their host countries, they assimilated in few generations. Yinglings were in Norse for centuries.

    The above should be reassessed and events that led to decline of N1C1 folk in Sweden should be found. As I mentioned somewhere L1025 tribe, for example, had this destiny - M2782+ clan got much life in Balts, the other clan/clans are now limited to very little folk.

    Need more investigation. A lot more ancient dna. But things start to make sense.

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    Arvisto, I am not at all so well acquainted with history, but, of course, I have nothing against your above findings. In any case, I think that there are still many many new things to learn about history and I hope that the genetic testing will greatly help us.

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    Thanks, Kristina. Let's hope some day they dig up a guy from early mythical yinglings, burial places are known. For example, king Agne. And do some y-dna testing.

    Ukko, can you provide source of Finnic-Norse hybrid archeological finds you mentioned? Was it by any chance before 500 AD and included Uppsala?

    Also I need someone to explain this pattern:
    Birka (Sweden): originated mid 8th - silenced 960
    Old Ladoga (Russia): founded 753 - until 950 one of the most important trade centers (wiki)
    Truso (Prussia): founded end 8th - stopped 2nd half of 10th century
    Kaup (Prussia): founded early 9th - flourished until end of 10th century
    Alands (Finland): academics dispute over possible depopulation late 10th century.
    Daugmale (Latvia): until mid 10th century it was Semigallian port, after that mixed Liivi, Lettigallians, etc.

    I could not find a source from sagas or elsewhere explaining such local Armageddon of second half 10th century. Apparently something happened. But trade did not dissappear, Sigtuna replaced Birka.
    ______
    In Latvia 10th century some new places were founded Jersika and Koknese, allegedly ruled by Polotsk Rurikid vassals. Polotsk was ruled then by Ragvolod (ruled 945-978). Reading on. Latvian version of wiki states - Ragvolod's grandsons from daughter line traced their line to maternal (Ragvolod) not paternal (Rurik) and explains this by Ragvolod belonging to Ynglings unlike Rurikids. But this is not in Russian or English versions, I wonder who wrote it and based on what :)

    According to the Knytlingasaga and Fagrskinna, Jomsborg was built by the Danish king Harold Bluetooth (910-985/86) in the 960s.[2][10] The Jomsvikinga Sagamentions Danish Viking Palnatoki as its founder.
    Last edited by arvistro; 15-11-14 at 23:22. Reason: Daugmale/Latvian info and Jomsburg

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Thanks, Kristina. Let's hope some day they dig up a guy from early mythical yinglings, burial places are known. For example, king Agne. And do some y-dna testing.

    Ukko, can you provide source of Finnic-Norse hybrid archeological finds you mentioned? Was it by any chance before 500 AD and included Uppsala?

    Also I need someone to explain this pattern:
    Birka (Sweden): originated mid 8th - silenced 960
    Old Ladoga (Russia): founded 753 - until 950 one of the most important trade centers (wiki)
    Truso (Prussia): founded end 8th - stopped 2nd half of 10th century
    Kaup (Prussia): founded early 9th - flourished until end of 10th century
    Alands (Finland): academics dispute over possible depopulation late 10th century.

    I could not find a source from sagas or elsewhere explaining such local Armageddon of second half 10th century. Apparently something happened. But trade did not dissappear, Sigtuna replaced Birka.
    I will try to find it but I think it was later, Viking Age Birka finds having Finnic influence, speculation on the extent of the contacts.

    This is something I would like to read, please link if you can find it.

    Redating and contextualizing the mounds of Uppsala and other monumental mounds 2008

    http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2:40157


    Another interesting paper from Birka.

    Eastern archery in Birkas Garrison

    http://www.academia.edu/1429936/East...rka_s_Garrison

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    Just found this,cant comment and will just post it here.

    The dating of Ynglingatal

    http://www.academia.edu/1342069/The_...of_Ynglingatal

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    Guys, shame on me!!!! I was so obssessed looking for Scandinavs in Prussia/Lithuania that totally forgot and ignored our own Latvian site.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grobi%C5%86a (or look Grobina online)

    Please read following quotes from wiki:
    During the Early Middle Ages, Grobiņa (or Grobin) was the most important political centre on the territory of Latvia. There was a centre of Scandinavian settlement on the Baltic Sea, comparable in many ways to Hedeby and Birka but probably predating them both. About 3,000 surviving burial mounds contain the most impressive remains of the Vendel Age in Northern Europe.

    OR
    Nerman found remains of an earthwork stronghold, which had been protected on three sides by the Ālande River. Three Vendel Agecemeteries may be dated to the period between 650 and 800 AD.

    Further in text he states Gotland influence, but I need to check if Gotland culture differed from Alands (Ālande River?). I think I know or soon will know the full story. Much disputed depopulation of Alands c.a. 950 must be checked.

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    In Gimbutas "Balts" she notes that Baltic finds were frequently found in Gotland, Alands and Central Sweden (Uppsala). Another thing is that Curonians (Baltic tribe that lived around Grobina) started to play the leading role in Baltic tribal affairs throughout viking ages. This is confirmed also with Kovalov's finds on Neman trade route where frequently among clearly Scandinavian finds he also notices Curonian ones. When I first read it (couple of post up you can read my first note on this) I thought hmm..

    I am running ahead horses as usual. That is me. But this is the last updated scenario:
    1. Tribe L1025+ lives on Aland islands
    2. Clan M2782+ moves to Grobina (Curland) ~600-800 AD
    ....
    3. After 750 AD. Same folk gets involved in Neman trade route, Truso and also Kaup in later centuries. Not only this folk, other varyags and locals too, but I believe initial managers were those guys. Either local Grobina's folk or new arrivals from Alands/Uppsala.
    ...
    4. After 950 AD. Danish King Bluetooth and Norwegian king Hakon raided Baltics and "changed operators" of Baltic Sea trade. Truso stopped 950, Birka stopped 950, Daugmale went from Semigallian hands into Livonian/Latgalian mix, end of 10th century, On Daugava Polotsk rulers built two more forts Koknese and Jersika on 10th century, Old Ladoga lost importance end of 10th century. Archeological finds stop at Aland islands after 950.

    note:
    on 1 - is my assumption based on Ālande (Spelled like Aalande) river in Grobiņa, and Aland, Gotland, Uppland triangle for Baltic finds.
    on 2 - is my assumption based on 'M2782+' popularity in Baltics, 'M2782-' clan/clans stayed in Alands
    on 3 - other varyag folk of course also was present, just like local Balts, West Slavs, East Slavs, etc. But I believe main role was M2782+.
    on 4 - this is the wildest assumption. Can't find on sagas about Birka's decline. But I found in some sources about Danish/Norwegian friendship and their common raids in Baltics ca 970. Also archeology shows all my mentioned declines/changes at the same period. Sagas on Uppsala kings from 900-1000 are silent. The ones that I found. Some king names are mentioned, but without much extra info. As if nothing really happened. On other hand I might be wrong, if those declines were related to Danes or Norges, then their sagas would feature those events with much pride :) So, maybe, nothing really happened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    In Gimbutas "Balts" she notes that Baltic finds were frequently found in Gotland, Alands and Central Sweden (Uppsala). Another thing is that Curonians (Baltic tribe that lived around Grobina) started to play the leading role in Baltic tribal affairs throughout viking ages. This is confirmed also with Kovalov's finds on Neman trade route where frequently among clearly Scandinavian finds he also notices Curonian ones. When I first read it (couple of post up you can read my first note on this) I thought hmm..

    I am running ahead horses as usual. That is me. But this is the last updated scenario:
    1. Tribe L1025+ lives on Aland islands
    2. Clan M2782+ moves to Grobina (Curland) ~600-800 AD
    ....
    3. After 750 AD. Same folk gets involved in Neman trade route, Truso and also Kaup in later centuries. Not only this folk, other varyags and locals too, but I believe initial managers were those guys. Either local Grobina's folk or new arrivals from Alands/Uppsala.
    ...
    4. After 950 AD. Danish King Bluetooth and Norwegian king Hakon raided Baltics and "changed operators" of Baltic Sea trade. Truso stopped 950, Birka stopped 950, Daugmale went from Semigallian hands into Livonian/Latgalian mix, end of 10th century, On Daugava Polotsk rulers built two more forts Koknese and Jersika on 10th century, Old Ladoga lost importance end of 10th century. Archeological finds stop at Aland islands after 950.

    note:
    on 1 - is my assumption based on Ālande (Spelled like Aalande) river in Grobiņa, and Aland, Gotland, Uppland triangle for Baltic finds.
    on 2 - is my assumption based on 'M2782+' popularity in Baltics, 'M2782-' clan/clans stayed in Alands
    on 3 - other varyag folk of course also was present, just like local Balts, West Slavs, East Slavs, etc. But I believe main role was M2782+.
    on 4 - this is the wildest assumption. Can't find on sagas about Birka's decline. But I found in some sources about Danish/Norwegian friendship and their common raids in Baltics ca 970. Also archeology shows all my mentioned declines/changes at the same period. Sagas on Uppsala kings from 900-1000 are silent. The ones that I found. Some king names are mentioned, but without much extra info. As if nothing really happened. On other hand I might be wrong, if those declines were related to Danes or Norges, then their sagas would feature those events with much pride :) So, maybe, nothing really happened?

    What where the Baltic Finns doing at this time?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I copy link of this here. Since it may be relevant to whole issue. It is about climate catastrophy of 536/537 and its consequences. ca 50% population loss in Estonia, Latvia, South Sweden, Norway, North Germany (everywhere where land cultivation was major source of food); but almost no loss in Finland. End of old trade networks, beginning of new trade networks operated by Finns without middlemen in Estonia or Scandinavia.
    http://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeolog...14-1-30-56.pdf

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    This not to be taken extremely serious, but nevertheless interesting.

    Reading Simmon Grunnaw's chronicle.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Grunau

    Obviously this chronicle is full of legends.

    So, in general his story is this:
    1. Some folk was replaced from Britania to Scandinavia by Drusus (apparently some Roman guy)
    2. Apparently some of that folk in turn had to withdraw from Scandinavia to Cymbria (which later in text is defined as modern Gothland)
    3. Early 6th Century Goths lost to Justinian and had to withdraw from Ravenna. They asked for place to live and Danish king let them live in Cymbria, since folk that lived there would not pay taxes to Danish king.
    4. Goths went to Cymbria and renamed it into Gothland later, but Cymbrians (former Gothland folk) had a choice to obey Goths or leave
    5. Cymbrians (46,000 folk) went to Ulmiganea (Prussia), build castles and became their overlords
    6. Bruten and Widewut were two Cymbrian brothers who became kings in Prussia, Widewut of course had 12 sons who were named in 12 Prussian tribal names :) and ruled 12 tribes, including Lithuania
    7. Interesting that they mention, when first nobles of joint nation was of Cymbrian origin their name would end on -o (neuter?), but when first locals would get to nobility -s (Baltic origin).
    8. He mentions use of (pagan) religion to unite and make local folk obey Widewut/Bruten.

    I have no idea if Gothland was ever called Cymbria or if Cymbrians have anything to do with Prussians or Goths whatsoever. Also if Goths had anything to do with Gothland. Obviously king having 12 children and hence 12 tribal names is also a legend.
    But known thing is Grobiņa (large scale Scandinavian colony in Curland, Seeborg), where "About 3,000 surviving burial mounds contain the most impressive remains of the Vendel Age in Northern Europe.".
    "Three Vendel Age cemeteries may be dated to the period between 650 and 800 AD. One of them was military in character and analogous to similar cemeteries in the Mälaren Valley in Central Sweden, while two others indicate that there was "a community of Gotlanders who were carrying on peaceful pursuits behind the shield of the Swedish military"."


    So my interpretation of Simon Grunau work is that probably there was some folk memory on large scale (incl ruling class) immigration from Gothland that was known to Grunau. Even centuries seem to match (after 500 in Grunau vs Vendel age cemetery dated 650).

    Some other wiki quote on Simon Grunau:
    For example, he took a description of Prussian holy place Romove (Romuva temple) from Peter von Dusburg and improved it by adding an eternally green oak, decorated with portraits of three idols and guarded by vestal virgins. Scholars agree that this addition was most probably borrowed from Adam of Bremen and his description of the Temple at Uppsala.[4]
    Or alternatively - it was there because the Temple of Uppsala influenced Romove.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Couple of other relevant items to topic in question
    1) I have started to get some doubts as I noticed post from user Huck Finn from biodiversity forum on the subject. Apparently there is specific type of axes that is called Malar axes and dated to bronze age. This is distribution of axes finds (their origin could have been Volga):


    Notice big red circle in Lithuania? Could this be the origin in M2782+ in Balts? Maybe.

    2) Found another interesting work on viking trade in Baltics.
    http://www.academia.edu/485512/The_b...y_emporia_2010
    With two pictures from there showing Arab Dirham finds. Find two differences! :) Very strange phenomenon in South Baltics:
    finds dated 780-830

    And
    finds dated 850-900

    It looks like Prussians withdrew from Viking trade route quite early. 850. Truso was still operating after that date but apparently that particular Arab trade route was closed. Also author states interesting Prussian phenomenon - there were no silver and gold finds after 850 and author states the following on page 356:
    "Early Medieval Prussian tribes were remarkably immune to influence of the Baltic region silver economy. This is known also, thanks to Adam of Bremen, who noted that Sambians and Prussians: Aurum et Argentum pro minimo ducunt (Tschan ed. &transl.1959,199)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Couple of other relevant items to topic in question
    1) I have started to get some doubts as I noticed post from user Huck Finn from biodiversity forum on the subject. Apparently there is specific type of axes that is called Malar axes and dated to bronze age. This is distribution of axes finds (their origin could have been Volga):


    Notice big red circle in Lithuania? Could this be the origin in M2782+ in Balts? Maybe.

    Must be the Volga Norse.

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    This picture from forum molgen by user Аббат Бузони
    http://s010.radikal.ru/i311/1410/4a/4ad326d5a43f.jpg

    It shows lack of N1C L550+ in Galindian tribe which is somewhat outside Neman trade route and also Truso/Kaup Prussia. Maybe it has something to it.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro
    Prussians have legends of brothers Bruten and Widewut coming to Prussia and establishing statehood
    There never existed any kind of statehood among Baltic-speaking Old Prussians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro
    Obviously this chronicle is full of legends.
    Written between 1517 and 1529... Not legends but rather complete fiction. And even your own link says so:

    No such manuscripts are known to exist and scholarly consensus is that the entire story was invented by Grunau.[4]
    ============================

    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro
    It shows lack of N1C L550+ in Galindian tribe

    Sorry, but this map shows haplogroups of modern inhabitants (!). You are overlooking 800 years of demographic changes.

    Moreover, Peter de Dusburg in his "Chronicon terrae Prussiae", wrote that Galindia was uninhabited already when Teutonic Knights came.

    So already in 1225 Galindia had very few inhabitants. Perhaps it was due to previous Polish, Danish and Yotvingian invasions.

    For example the last Danish raid against Galindia took place in year 1210 (according to "
    Liber Census Daniae").

    It is doubtful whether Galindian tribe existed in year 1225, before Teutonic Knights came. Let alone after the conquest...

    There were - at least until year 1267 - some groups of people, especially in eastern parts of Galindia (near modern Mrągowo and Giżycko). But there was no any organized Galindian tribe. It had been destroyed (as an organized and numerous community) already before 1225.

    Galindia was in any case the most sparsely populated of Prussian territories, and became part of Great Wilderness (die Grosse Wildnis).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 16-02-15 at 13:13.

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    Prussians have legends
    Not Prussians, but German immigrants who settled in Prussia. Simon Grunau was not a native Prussian, but an ethnic German monk.

    And his "Preußische Chronik" is largely modelled on various heroic stories from Ancient Graeco-Roman mythology.

    Other - equally fictional and invented - early histories of Prussia were:

    "De Borvssiae antiqvitatibvs libridvo" - published by Erasmus Stella in 1518 (bishop of Pomesania - Hiob von Dobeneck - inspired Stella to write it).

    "De situ et origine Pruthenorum,de Livonia eiusque ortu et situ, de bello Turcarum et Hungarorum" - written in 1454 by future Pope Pius II.

    The one written by Enea Silvio Bartolomeo Piccolomini (since 1458 known as Pope Pius II) was based on "Getica" (written in 551 AD by Jordanes).

    As for that 1518 work by Erasmus Stella. Stella was pro-Teutonic (he called Teutonic Knights "sanctosancta militia") and his text was a propaganda pamphlet written in order to justify German rights to Prussia. That's why he claimed that first inhabitants of Prussia were Ancient Germans.

    Stella's work were his own biased interpretations of Claudius Ptolemy, Pliny, Pomponius Mela, Tacitus, Strabo, Solinus and Jordanes.

    According to Stella Prussia had a history of constantly getting conquered by various tribes, and the last tribe to do so were Non-Germanic Prussians. But remnants of "native" Germanic population in Prussia survived and rebelled against their Baltic Prussian oppressors and occupiers. When they rebelled, Emperor Frederick Barbarossa (sic!) supported them and nominated as their leader certain "Konrad Duke of Massobiorum" (sic!), who was "of Old Saxon blood" (sic!). However, local "Germanic Saxons" (sic!) led by "Konrad of Massobiorum" were unable to defeat Prussians, so they invited the Teutonic Knights to help them in defeating their Prussian oppressors. This is what Erasmus Stella wrote in the 1510s, trying to legitimize German presence in Prussia.

    Also S. Grunau invented fictional stories to claim "eternal Germanness" of Prussia, to justify immigration of German colonists and discrimination of Old Prussians (most of surviving Prussians were reduced to the status of serfs with no rights and later became outnumbered by immigrants). Grunau was trying to prove that Germans were native to Prussia since times immemorial, and not that they immigrated there since the 13th century.

    If you read Polish then here is a good paper on Grunau's pamphlet:

    http://prusowie.pl/dane/Grunau.pdf
    Last edited by Tomenable; 16-02-15 at 13:16.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What you are doing in this thread is inventing similar fairy tales, as those 16th century German monks & bishops, who persecuted Prussians. 42% of Lithuanians are not descended from any German(ic) guy, and Gediminids were a native Baltic dynasty, which (who) had nothing Germanic.

    Baltic Prussians weren't ruled by any foreign elite, but by themselves. You apparently don't know that Prussians did not even have any hereditary nobility, but were a pretty democratic society in which noble status was not determined by blood, but by heroic deeds in battles (if you were a good warrior you were achieving noble status, but your children were not going to inherit that status - they also had to be good warriors to become nobles).

    And nobles were around 15% of Old Prussian society (of course that percent was fluent, but an average of 15% is a reliable estimate).

    East Prussian Germans were not descendants of Old Prussians, but mostly of West German immigrants, invited to Prussia by Teutonic Knights (like previously they brought in colonists to eastern Transylvania, where they had briefly ruled for a few dozen years before Hungarian kings expelled them) and established cities and villages on German law. Some native Prussians survived, but vast majority were at the bottom of the society because the Teutonic Order and the Church made them into feudal serfs with no rights, and persecuted them. Only Prussian traitors and collaborators enjoyed some privileges.

    No more than 20% up to 33% of genetic ancestry of the population of East Prussia in year 1816 could be from Old Prussians:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post448429

    The rest of East Prussians were of immigrant stock (not only German but also Polish, Lithuanian and other), who came during 800 years.

    Moreover - native Baltic population of Prussia was marginalized by the Teutonic Order and reduced largely to the role of peasant serfs.

    =======================================

    Graphs below illustrate this most optimistic (for Old Prussians) variant of 33% (but 20% - 25% is actually more realistic):





    Other includes Curonians (who settled along the Curonian Spit), Scandinavians, Jews, etc.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 16-02-15 at 13:18.

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    - As attested by viking dynasties in their host countries, they assimilated in few generations.
    Abraham ben Jacob, a 10th-century Iberian Jewish traveller, wrote about the Rurikid Dynasty: "they speak Slavic, because they interbred with them." But he did not write what language had they allegedly spoken before that, and he did not write why did he think that originally they did not speak Slavic (let's add that Abraham ben Jacob never actually visited Russia, in years 961 - 962 he personally visited Italy, Germany, the Danes, the Czechs, and the Obotrites).

    Moreover, A. Bajor in his Rurikid DNA Project found the following 7 Y-DNA haplogroups among descendants of the Rurikids:

    N1c1, R1a-L260, R1a-P278, R1a-Z92, R1a-M458, R1a-Z280, I2a1

    As you can see he found not a single "Germanic haplogroup" among them, which raises doubts if the Rurikids ever actually spoke Germanic.

    He also confirmed the old theory that Oleg I of Chernigov was not biological but adopted son of Sviatoslav II of Kiev.

    =====================================

    The theory that the Rurikids were Germanic by origin was first proposed by Gerhardt Friedrich Müller in 1749, but finds no confirmation in modern genetics. If there were some Germanics in service of the Rurikids is another thing. Byzantine Emperors also employed foreign mercenaries, including Scandinavians.

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    From: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post451206

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable
    IIRC Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich estimate the age of formation of I2a1b1 as 2800 years ago and its TMRCA as 2500 years ago. Place of formation was Eastern or East-Central Europe according to them. This young age combined with its presence among Slavic (especially East Slavic and South Slavic) populations and its lack of presence among Baltic populations, suggests that this mutation originally formed in one of members of the Proto-Slavic community around year 800 BCE. The time when the Balto-Slavic community split (an event illustrated by the graph below), forming Proto-Slavs and the other two groups (Proto East Balts and Proto West Balts - according to Kromer's 2003 theory) has been variously estimated at between 1500 BCE and 500 BCE, but most authors place it between 1400 and 1200 BCE
    Interestingly, Baltic clades N-L550 and N-L1025 have similar ages and TMRCAs as I2a1b1:

    N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic countries
    N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia

    N-L550 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp
    N-L1025 formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Now compare this to I2a1b1 which (according to Nordtvedt & Verenich) formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp.

    Data on distribution of N1c1a (old name N3) and R1a in Lithuania - from Kasperaviciute 2004:

    http://genofond.invint.net/genofond....df?file_id=966



    Map (southern region marked as SA - inhabited largely by ethnic Poles - has 61,8% R1a and only 29,4% N3):


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    From: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news

    SNP L1025+ isolate from N-L550+ sub-branch characteristic for the Balts descendants
    A mutation L1025+ discovered in February 2012 in FT DNA WTY Program participant distinguishes Baltic Tribes descendants from other representatives of the N-L550+ branch. This conclusion applies not only to the modern Balts: Lithuanians and Latvians - but also to the descendants of extinct tribes West Balts: Prussians, Curonians, Yotvingians, and even to the majority of this inhabitants of the modern Belarus, which belongs to N1C1 haplogroup. This is a present look for genetic evolution of Balts:




    Picture on the link (created by S. Melnyk) show structure of N-L1025 subclade as we see it in May 2014:




    Internal STR evolution of L551+ L1025+Terminal Subclade. In my opinion the DYS557 mutation 14=>13 was the first step in splitting the subclade and thus making it a very important marker. In the earlier work of Vladimir Volkov (2012, Nov.) this marker was not used in his calculations.

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    Anyone know where from is YF03409 ?

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

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    N1c haplogroup was found in a burial of Zhizhitskaya culture at Serteya (Smolensk Oblast, Russia), from ca. year 2500 BC.

    Check: Chekunova E. M. et. al. (2014), The first results of genetic typing of local population and ancient humans in Upper Dvina region, in A. Mazurkevich, M. Polkovnikova and E. Dolbunova (eds.), Archaeology of lake settlement IV-II mill. BC, pp. 290-294.

    Actually, two samples of N1c were found there - that from Zhizhitskaya culture from 2500 BC, and another, younger sample:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...Uralics/page12

    Younger N1c is from "Long Barrows" culture, older is from neolithic Zhizhitskaya
    culture (never heard about it before). Zhizhitskaya culture is at least partially derived from Comb Ceramic horizon.

    About archeological context and time frame. If I'm reading the confusing map correctly, the Zhizhitskaya folks are sitting in the crossroads of Globular Amphora, Corded Ware, Fatyanovo and Yamna



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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Couple of other relevant items to topic in question
    1) I have started to get some doubts as I noticed post from user Huck Finn from biodiversity forum on the subject. Apparently there is specific type of axes that is called Malar axes and dated to bronze age. This is distribution of axes finds (their origin could have been Volga):


    Notice big red circle in Lithuania? Could this be the origin in M2782+ in Balts? Maybe.
    any dates for this phenomenom?

    could it be ca 3.2 ka?

    it looks like after the Tollense battle ca 3.25 ka battle Norse people were at war with Urnfield people
    they didn't get any metal ores from the Carpathian basin any more
    they set out some expeditions to find the Caucasus ores

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    Hm. Actually it is 1000 bce-700 bce.
    Baltic M2783 has TMRCA of 600 bce.
    But the impulse would come from East to West, same impulse probably brought ancestors of Baltic-Finns into Baltics. And same or related impulse apparently brought M2783 to Balts.
    Do you have more info about Norse exploring Caucasus ores 1000 bce?

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    Hi everyone,
    I'm new to the forum, but would like to draw your attention to the matching of big group of Lithuanians to the Riurikids prices DNA.
    Comparing Lituania Propria DNA Project
    min-max in groups hg N (L1025+> Z16981+ & predicted) , hg N (L1025+> Z16981+ > CTS8173+/Z16980+), hg N (L1025+> Z16981+ , CTS8173-) ,
    to the Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project
    111461 Puzyna kniaz Puzyna: Bazyli Hłazyna, b.c.1420, Smolensk
    200703 Korybut Woroniecki Prince Lucjan Korybut Woroniecki, 1806-1875
    There is matching 99 out of 102 markers.
    Historically Riurikds were rulers and elite of the territory from Kiev to the Novgorod and Polock. Most likely in Lithuania also.
    Last edited by Norvila; 04-09-16 at 23:43.

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