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Thread: N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

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    There is interesting results from Polish Y-DNA Haplogroup Summary Table (please google).
    LTNQ
    6.9% N (M231) 5.2% N-L550 5.0% N-M2783 4.6% N-Z16975 1.9%
    N-Z16981 1.1%

    So 6,9% out of 38,53M population is 2.659M N1C1.
    I think it's more than LT+LV+EE N1C1 all together.
    Last edited by Norvila; 05-09-16 at 06:36. Reason: new idea

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    It is about climate catastrophy of 536/537 and its consequences. ca 50% population loss in Estonia, Latvia, South Sweden, Norway, North Germany (everywhere where land cultivation was major source of food); but almost no loss in Finland. End of old trade networks, beginning of new trade networks operated by Finns without middlemen in Estonia or Scandinavia.









    There are more looses for countries with intensive agriculture than for countries where hunting is a food source.
    It's easier hunting with snow, than without.
    It should trigger migration to the North.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Exactly! Before it went into Balts it was in West Finland...

    Another interesting Norse Baltic link.
    According to certain Russian sources Gediminas was son of Skolmantas (one of Yatwing Princes and sorcerer).

    Yatwings (before viking age known as Sudovians) etimology is now pretty much believed to come from Old Norse Jatvigr (luck in war or lucky spear).
    It is pretty much possible that Gediminas' very early ancestor was Norseman Jatvigr, founder of Jatvings clan...

    The deeper I get into this, the more of Norse I find in early Balt statehood...
    A bit late to the discussion.

    There is only one Russian source that mentions ‘Skolomend’

    Gradnd duke of Lithuania Algirdas had a son Andrei from marriage with Maria Yarslavna of Vitsebsk. There is a Russian chronicle Zadonshina written in late 14th early 15th century in which Andrei corresponds to his brother Dmitri "Brother Dmitri, we are two brothers, sons of Algirdas, grandsons of Gedyminas, great grandsons (pravnuki) of Skolomend"

    pravnuki in Russian can also mean distant descendant.

    S.C. Rowell suggests in his books Lithuania Ascending: A Pagan Empire Within East-Central Europe, 1295-1345 (pp 54-55) that Skolomend could be powerful Sudovian warrior Skumantas. Also known as Skomantas in other sources. If this is true then Skomantas could be an ancestor of Gediminid dynasty. But this maybe another fanciful hypothesis.


    --

    Yatvyag (Yotvingian) may have Norse etymology. Unlikely, the term was a self-identification term of western Baltic tribe. This was exoethnonym applied to them in Ruthenian chronicles. Teutons had another term for them – Sudova. As per Lithuanian scholar A Tautavicius Yotvingians were divided into four groups:

    Poleksians (Slavic term)– western Balts settled around eastern Belovezha forest, just north of Brest city. They were the most southern group of Balts at the time.
    Sudova were those who lived nearest to other western Balts (Prussians). Present day north-eastern Poland.
    Dainava lived in today’s southern Lithania and north-western Belarus. Dainava was also an ethnographic region of southern Lithuania. The guys who have plenty of R1a1.
    Yotvingians were western Balts of present day western Belarus and eastern Poland

    Tautavicius A. Jotvingiai, dainaviai, sOduviai, poleksnai ir... / Lietuvos mokslas, II tomas, 1 (2) knyga. Vilnius, 1994, p. 4-14..
    Last edited by Volat; 05-09-16 at 02:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I would propose a different etymology for the name Lithuania that would also explain Latvia and Livonia. Wikipedia tells us that ”since the word Lietuva has a suffix (-uva), the original word should have no suffix. A likely candidate is Lietā. Because many Baltic ethnonyms originated from hydronyms, linguists have searched for its origin among local hydronyms. Usually such names evolved through the following process: hydronym → toponym → ethnonym. A small river not far from Kernavė, the core area of the early Lithuanian state and a possible first capital of the would-be Grand Duchy of Lithuania, is usually credited as the source of the name. This river's original name is Lietava. Kernavė is a small town in the southeastern part of Lithuania, in Širvintos district, located on the right bank of the river Neris, on the upper Neris terrace.”
    I like the hypothesis about Lithuania being derived from a hydronym. The root of the word 'Lit-' , 'Liet-' , 'Lyut-' is common in Baltic and Slavic languages. For example, there is a toponym in Slovakia 'Lytva’.

    Many archaeologists associate East Lithuanian barrow culture with a group of eastern Balts that were known as Litva in Ruthenian chronicle. A group of eastern Balts that established the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the mid 13th century. That group of east Baltic people that gave the name to the state and ethnonym to Balts of different origins living on territories of present day Lithuania.

    Geographic location of original Lithuania was in the basin of Neris river. The old name of Neris river is Vilia . Vilia s a Baltic hydronym. Belarusians still call the river this way. Vilnius city derives its name from the river Vilia. But that’s another story.


    Geographic location of East Lithuanian barrow culture. PS I cannot post the links until I get 10 posts. Just add URI in front of the link


    cs407522.vk.me/v407522071/5b9c/R1Gkixp4y_4.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Arivistro, you're so enthusiastic about your theory, so I don't want to spoil it. But the general explanation is that all N1C1 were just there in the Lithuanian territory from Narva culture times...
    We now know the clade that the Balts have is N1c1-M2783. The mutation of M2783 occurred 2,500 years before present. It's too young for the Narva culture. But you may be right and some N1c1 carrier lived in Narva culture. Ancient DNA from Lithuania has already been done. We have to wait until the results are released.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Archaeological cultures on territories of modern day Lithuania in chronological order.



    Swiderian culture 11K-8.2K BC Paleoeuropeans.
    Neman culture. Southern Lithuania. 7K-5KBC. Paleoeuropeans
    Kunda culture 8K-5K BC. Paleoeuropeans.
    Narva culture 5.3K-1.75K BC. Paleoeuropeans.
    Comb ceramic culture 4.2K-2K BC. In the past scholars considered this culture Finno-Ugric. Nowadays many scholars hold an opinion that this culture was also paleoeuropean, as Finnish linguists suggest that proto-Finnic language spread into Baltic shores only 3,000 ybp (1K BC).
    Corded ware culture 3.2K-2.3K BC. Earliest Indo-Europeans
    Zhutsevskaya culture was a local variant of Corded ware culture. 3K-2K BC. Earlieast Indo-Europeans.
    Sambian barrow culture 6BC-1AD. Western Lithuania. Early western Balts
    West Baltic barrow culture 5BC-1AD. Western Lithuania . Early western Balts
    Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD. Central and eastern Lithuania . Early eastern Balts
    East Lithuanian barrow culture 5AD-12AD . South-eastern Lithuania. Eastern Balts
    Stone barrow culture 4AD-13AD . South-west Lithuanians . Western Balts (Dainava, Yotvingians)

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    Very informative posts Volat. Welcome to Eupedia.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Archaeological cultures on territories of modern day Lithuania in chronological order.



    Swiderian culture 11K-8.2K BC Paleoeuropeans.
    Neman culture. Southern Lithuania. 7K-5KBC. Paleoeuropeans
    Kunda culture 8K-5K BC. Paleoeuropeans.
    Narva culture 5.3K-1.75K BC. Paleoeuropeans.
    Comb ceramic culture 4.2K-2K BC. In the past scholars considered this culture Finno-Ugric. Nowadays many scholars hold an opinion that this culture was also paleoeuropean, as Finnish linguists suggest that proto-Finnic language spread into Baltic shores only 3,000 ybp (1K BC).
    Corded ware culture 3.2K-2.3K BC. Earliest Indo-Europeans
    Zhutsevskaya culture was a local variant of Corded ware culture. 3K-2K BC. Earlieast Indo-Europeans.
    Sambian barrow culture 6BC-1AD. Western Lithuania. Early western Balts
    West Baltic barrow culture 5BC-1AD. Western Lithuania . Early western Balts
    Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD. Central and eastern Lithuania . Early eastern Balts
    East Lithuanian barrow culture 5AD-12AD . South-eastern Lithuania. Eastern Balts
    Stone barrow culture 4AD-13AD . South-west Lithuanians . Western Balts (Dainava, Yotvingians)

    I should correct Volan
    Formation of East Lithuania Barrow Culture begins

    in the late second – early third century (the first stage:

    phases B2–C1/C1a – till phase D1). The process was pro-

    voked and directly influenced by migration of west Baltic people from the south-western territories
    ISSN 1392–6748

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    Please consider statistics
    Lithuania has 840 hill forts, 792 of them comes from Roman and Migration periods (A.Bliujienė 2013, Zabiela)
    LV - 470, EE - 90(?) from Final Iron Age hill forts (Tvauri 2012).
    So LT has 2 times higher density of hill forts than neighbors and 4 times EE.
    Timing matches with East Lithuania and Stone barrow cultures also Migration period.
    There are papers stating cultures expanded North.

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    A History of the Baltic States Andres Kasekamp on Google books

    browse "Hillforts were errected first in Lithuania in the Early Roman Age" (sorry I'm not allowed to post screenshots nor links)

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    The map of Baltic hydronyms below is based on research done by several leading linguists from Lithuania and Russia. The inner area shows a large number of Baltic hydronyms, while the outer area shows few Baltic hydronyms on the map.

    Add URI in front of link.

    4.bp.blogspot.com/-9-DFhfz1jUs/Unq3NwdmRGI/AAAAAAAAAGA/7gRv8ZrmlK4/s1600/kalba-zemel.jpg


    Archaeological cultures listed below are widely considered Baltic by archaeologists. The Baltic archaeological cultures located in Lithuania, Latvia, north-eastern Poland, Belarus , western Russia are coinciding with the area of Baltic hydronyms. These are

    Western Baltic Barrow and related cultures
    Sambian barrow culture 6BC-1AD.
    Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD
    Dniepr-Dvina cultures 8BC-4AD
    Moshinskaya culture 4AD-6AD related to Dniepr-Dvina culture
    Upper-Oka culture of Iron age related to dniepr-Dvina culture
    Milograd culture 7BC-1AD
    Yukhnovskaya culture 5BC-2BC
    Eastern Lithuanian barrow culture 3AD-12AD
    Bantser-tushemlya archeological culture – 4AD-6AD
    Stone barrow culture 4AD-13AD
    Possibly Kolichinsk (5AD-7AD) and Kiev (2AD-5AD) archaeological cultures.


    PS The dating of archaeological cultures is approximate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    I like the hypothesis about Lithuania being derived from a hydronym. The root of the word 'Lit-' , 'Liet-' , 'Lyut-' is common in Baltic and Slavic languages. For example, there is a toponym in Slovakia 'Lytva’.

    Many archaeologists associate East Lithuanian barrow culture with a group of eastern Balts that were known as Litva in Ruthenian chronicle. A group of eastern Balts that established the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the mid 13th century. That group of east Baltic people that gave the name to the state and ethnonym to Balts of different origins living on territories of present day Lithuania.

    Geographic location of original Lithuania was in the basin of Neris river. The old name of Neris river is Vilia . Vilia s a Baltic hydronym. Belarusians still call the river this way. Vilnius city derives its name from the river Vilia. But that’s another story.


    Geographic location of East Lithuanian barrow culture. PS I cannot post the links until I get 10 posts. Just add URI in front of the link


    cs407522.vk.me/v407522071/5b9c/R1Gkixp4y_4.jpg
    Theories are up to like or dislike.
    But I should quote "there is no other country name derived from hydronim" (S.Karaliūnas "Baltų etnonimai" 2015).
    So this version is quite speculative.
    CZ + SK has 4 Litava rivers + one Leitha / Litava on other side of Danube near Viena.
    There massive bunch of antonyms with Lit- there and in C.Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Theories are up to like or dislike.
    But I should quote "there is no other country name derived from hydronim" (S.Karaliūnas "Baltų etnonimai" 2015).
    So this version is quite speculative.
    CZ + SK has 4 Litava rivers + one Leitha / Litava on other side of Danube near Viena.
    There massive bunch of antonyms with Lit- there and in C.Europe.
    The hypothesis is plausible described by many scholars.

    Balts didn't have their writing for a long time leaving no written evidence about themselves from earliest times. In earliest Ruthenian chronicles Lithuania or more correctly litъva (ъ is short 'a' which is no longer used in literally East Slavic languages) was applied to a group of east Baltic people. Thus, in the Tale of Bygone Years (Primary Chronicle) compiled in Kiev around 1113 by monk Nestor 'litъva' people are mentioned en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

    Excerpt from Primary Chronicle. Use google translator if needed.

    В Иафетовой же части сидят русские, чудь и всякие народы: меря, мурома, весь, мордва, заволочская чудь, пермь, печера, ямь, угра, литва, зимигола, корсь, летгола, ливы. Ляхи же и пруссы, чудь сидят близ моря Варяжского.

    литва - Litva (Balts)
    зимигола - Semigalians (Balts)
    корсь - Curonians (Balts)
    летгола - Latgalians (Balts)


    In other early chrincles 'litva' was applied to people too.

    Later, the name Litva was applied to the state. It is also known that many people identified themselves after the regions in which they lived. Thus neighbouring Slavic tribe of northern Belarus 'Polochans' were named after Polota river. Slavic tribe Buzhane were named after Bug river. As the previous poster suggested Baltic tribes also had identification terms after rivers. I cannot think of many example. Litva (Lietuva) is one the example.

    In this case hydronym -> ethnonym -> country name.

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    It's seems we've lost original topic.
    Avistro thinks variags could brought N1C1 to the Baltics, That's plausible.
    I point there was earlier inflow of the people - 2-3CAC and then massive Migration period that changed archeological cultures all over Europe and Scandinavia.

    As to the Litva/Leita A.Dobonis published "LDK leičiai" research in 1995. This become official theory since then accepted by historians and linguistics.
    Google book Foreword to the Past– A Cultural History of the Baltic People

    Autorius (-iai): Endre Bojtár

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    It's seems we've lost original topic.
    Avistro thinks variags could brought N1C1 to the Baltics, That's plausible.
    I point there was earlier inflow of the people - 2-3CAC and then massive Migration period that changed archeological cultures all over Europe and Scandinavia.

    As to the Litva/Leita A.Dobonis published "LDK leičiai" research in 1995. This become official theory since then accepted by historians and linguistics.
    Google book Foreword to the Past– A Cultural History of the Baltic People

    Autorius (-iai): Endre Bojtár
    Avistro stated this 2 years ago. Since then he learned many things and probably changed his mind about migration path of N1c1.

    1. N1c1 came into east Baltic from the East.
    2. The earliest known N1c1 is found in western Smolensk (Zhizhitskaya culture 4, 500 years before present). Right on the border of Russia and Belarus in the basin of Dvina (Daugava) river.

    Likely, N1c1 traveled in Scandinavia from Finland. Although Finns have their own subclades of N1c1 , Few Finns also share subclade of N1c1 similar to that found in Rurikid.

    Gediminid and Rurikid do not share the same subclade Although both had a common ancestor.

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    According to Lithuanian anthropologist Gintautas Chesnis there was a migration from Scandinavia to Lithuania in Neolithic. Other than that Scandinavians and Balts are different genetically, anthropologically, ethnographically.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Avistro stated this 2 years ago. Since then he learned many things and probably changed his mind about migration path of N1c1.

    1. N1c1 came into east Baltic from the East.
    2. The earliest known N1c1 is found in western Smolensk (Zhizhitskaya culture 4, 500 years before present). Right on the border of Russia and Belarus in the basin of Dvina (Daugava) river.

    Likely, N1c1 traveled in Scandinavia from Finland. Although Finns have their own subclades of N1c1 , Few Finns also share subclade of N1c1 similar to that found in Rurikid.

    Gediminid and Rurikid do not share the same subclade Although both had a common ancestor.
    Yes, that is correct. What made (some) sense 2 years ago, does not make much sense now.
    My current belief is N-L1025 came into Baltics together with art of metals and fortification that also brought Baltic Finns into region. Somewhere 1st Millenium BC.

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    Arvistro,
    That exactly what I came to conclusion too.
    Fortifications and art of metals was standard skills of legionaries.
    Nero amber expedition and Tacitus book was the turning points.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The first smithy in Žardė hillfort near Klaipėda has C14 dates 420 -160+60 BCE.
    About the same age smithies discovered in S.Finland with later roman artifacts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    There are papers stating cultures expanded North.
    In my opinion migrations into eastern Baltic occurred along waterways. Into Latvia along Dzvina (Daugava) river from western Russia and northern Belarus. Into Lithuania along Neman and Vilia (Neris) rivers from Belarus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    In my opinion migrations into eastern Baltic occurred along waterways. Into Latvia along Dzvina (Daugava) river from western Russia and northern Belarus. Into Lithuania along Neman and Vilia (Neris) rivers from Belarus.
    Please google papers on Eastern Lithuanian barrow culture (R.Lietuvos pilkapių kultūrą).

    Baltic sea was the biggest waterway and free market until Danish expansion and Swedish - Novgorodian war.

    Litgen project clearly shows more Ra1 along the river Nemunas and more N1C in N.Lithuania without transit waterways.
    Then Ra1 is more common along the Daugava and N1C1 in Estonia.

    I suppose this indicates Ra1 moved down by the rivers from the south were max is in Dneper basin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Please google papers on Eastern Lithuanian barrow culture (R.Lietuvos pilkapių kultūrą).

    Baltic sea was the biggest waterway and free market until Danish expansion and Swedish - Novgorodian war.

    Litgen project clearly shows more Ra1 along the river Nemunas and more N1C in N.Lithuania without transit waterways.
    Then Ra1 is more common along the Daugava and N1C1 in Estonia.

    I suppose this indicates Ra1 moved down by the rivers from the south were max is in Dneper basin.
    Eastern Lithuanian borrow a relatively late archaeological culture of mid and late Iron age . During Iron age there was a Slavic migration into Belarus and western Russia splitting autochthonous population (wester, eastern and Dniepr Balts). Indo-European migrations into Lithuania and Latvia happened since late Neolithic and Bronze ages. Both R1a and N1c came from the east with R1a and R1b migrating on a more southern path reaching all the way to British Isles. The Baltic sea was a natural barrier for a northern migration of N1c1.

    Population geneticist Kushniarevich published a paper in which she described a migration along Neman and Pripyat' rivers. In the past people settled near the rivers to have access to water. They migrated along the rivers too.

    Speaking of Balts, they were mostly inland people. The only sea-fares among the Balts that I can think of were Curonians.

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    There was a migration from Scandinavia into east Baltic during Bronze age. Those were proto-Germanic settling mostly in coastal (western) Finland, western Estonia and nother-western Latvia.

    Formation of Proto-Finnic – an archaeological scenario from the Bronze Age / Early Iron Age by Valter Lang, University of Tartu, Estonia. Paper was presented at International Finno-Ugric congress , 2015. http://www.oulu.fi/sites/default/files/content/CIFU12-PlenaryPapers.pdf







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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Eastern Lithuanian borrow a relatively late archaeological culture of mid and late Iron age . During Iron age there was a Slavic migration into Belarus and western Russia splitting autochthonous population (wester, eastern and Dniepr Balts).
    There was a small migration into south-eastern Lithuania during Iron age. Archaeologist Valentin Sedov describes Kirivichi settlement among people of Litva. Those Kirivichi that lived around Polotsk and Vitsebsk cities.



    Litva and Krivichi , Lietuvos Archeologija. . 2001. T 21, p. 81-88. ISSN 02-07-8694 http://talpykla.istorija.lt/bitstrea...A_21_81-88.pdf

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Razib Khan has just opined on the new "N" paper.

    See:
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-rise-of-...polar-edition/

    For convenience, here is the original paper:
    http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(16)30160-4


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