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Thread: N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    There is interesting results from Polish Y-DNA Haplogroup Summary Table (please google).

    LTNQ 6.9% N (M231) 5.2% N-L550 5.0% N-M2783 4.6% N-Z16975 1.9%
    N-Z16981 1.1%

    So 6,9% out of 38,53M population is 2.659M N1C1.
    I think it's more than LT+LV+EE N1C1 all together.
    Calculating in absolute figures I came to conclusion there are more N1C1 people in PL+LT+LV+EE than in FI.
    Should be this haplogroup called South East Baltic?

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    The n1c1-M2783+ is already called like this at least unoffically.
    But according to my best knowledge there are minimum cases of more basal lines of N1c1 there. Even L1025+ M2783- is no more SE Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    So 6,9% out of 38,53M population is 2.659M N1C1.
    I think it's more than LT+LV+EE N1C1 all together.

    The result look from a commercial database. If that the case then the result are skewed. If I am not mistaken in few published studies with large sample size across the country the frequency of N1c1 in Polish population was between 2.2-5%.

    Also, you are multiplying the entire population on frequency, while y-chromosome markers are present in male population only.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Belarusians

    There is a study based on a sample size of 1086 subjects representing all ethnographic regions of Belarus proportionally. 109 out of 1085 (10%) were tested for N1c1-L550 . Back then it was call South-Baltic clade.

    Russians were also in the study represented by 545 subjects from different regions of Russia. Overall frequency of N1c1 was 14% among Russians. But only 40%-50% of N1c1 (5.6%-7% overall) was N1c-L550. Other clades were similar to those found in Ural and Karelia.

    Source: Белорусы: этногенез и связь с другими славянскими народами с позиции ДНК-генеалогии (2011)



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    When compare populations is ok to multiply with whole. Because if Poland > Latvia + Lithuania
    Then Poland/2 > Latvia/2 + Lithuania/2
    Early class math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    When compare populations is ok to multiply with whole. Because if Poland > Latvia + Lithuania
    Then Poland/2 > Latvia/2 + Lithuania/2
    Early class math.
    I guess unless there are differences in male to female ratios between the countries.

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    Significant enough to change the outcome, that I doubt.
    Whether N is 2 or 6% of Poles is more significant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Significant enough to change the outcome, that I doubt.
    Whether N is 2 or 6% of Poles is more significant.
    If there are 55:45 female to male ratio and opposite in another country, then it can be significant. Even in early school maths students are precise presenting their answers. In this instance it doesn't matter. The entire populations can be used for comparison.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting material to think about.


    Prof. А. К. Матвеев Ural university Onomastic centre founder in 1962 stated
    "placenames with ending -is, -as are massive in Russia north and left by tribe related to modern Lithuanians".
    He refer to another earlier research in Komi.
    http://onomastics.ru/sites/default/f...991/VT%201.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Interesting material to think about.


    Prof. А. К. Матвеев Ural university Onomastic centre founder in 1962 stated
    "placenames with ending -is, -as are massive in Russia north and left by tribe related to modern Lithuanians".
    He refer to another earlier research in Komi.
    http://onomastics.ru/sites/default/f...991/VT%201.pdf

    In the article the author states

    Dvina - Dvynai (Lithuanian twins). Because northern Dvina is formed at confluence of two rivers Sukhona and Vychegda. In Finnish Dvina is Viena, so it could be formed from Lithuanian vienas (English unified) because the river is form from two rivers.


    ---

    If Dvina - Dvynai (Lithuanian twins), then why not from Russian 'Dvoinya' (twins) ?

    As several authors noted, the river Dvina in northern Russia was named after Dvina that runs through northern Belarus and Latvia (Daugava). The name of the river was mentioned in earliest primary chronicle well before Slavs reached Archangel region of northern Russia. The names of the river are northern and western Dvina today. The etymology of Dvina is debatable among scholars. Both Baltic and Finnish etymologies are offered. Thus Belarusian scholar Zhuchkevich suggested that Dvina has Baltic Finnic etymology - silent, calm (тихая, спокойная)

    Semantics of the following hydronyms are also interesting.


    Chulas - Sulas (Lith.) - Pole in the fence.
    Sargas - sargas (Lith) - Guard.

    Maybe there was a reason to name a river as a 'Pole in the fence'.

    The fact that Matveev makes reference to hydronyms that have formants similar to -as and -is similar to that of Lithuanian is an interesting fact. Semantics a bit far fetch. It's well known that western Russia in the direction of Belarus from Moscow has many Baltic hydronyms. The very well known is Moskva (Moscow ) of Baltic origin according to Baltist Toporov, where eastern Galindians were settled. But in northern Russia? Keep in mind the article is a bit dated written in 1962. Thanks for sharing the article.

    ---

    A comprohensive collection of papers on Balto-Slavic studies held at the Russian Academy of sciences authored by Baltic and Slavic authors. There’s plenty on Baltic linguistics and ethnography. http://www.inslav.ru/izdaniya/arxiv/...47-42/108--l-r

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Semantics of the following hydronyms are also interesting.


    Chulas - Sulas (Lith.) - Pole in the fence.
    Sargas - sargas (Lith) - Guard.

    Maybe there was a reason to name a river as a 'Pole in the fence'.
    Nothing wrong with sargas. In Latvia we have Sargupe and in Lithuania there is at least one Sargupis. It perhaps has more to do semantically with 'sargāties' (to be beware of, Russian cognate storozhitsa).
    Chulas - Sulas is perhaps wrong a bit wrong. Further in text is Chauras = Siauras, if we go this way, Chulas - Siūlas makes more sense. Siūlas means thread in Lithuanian.

    I agree they look different from other toponyms in area. I agree to author they sound IE-an.
    I am however a bit vary that they are too Lithuanian-ish. Not archaic Baltic-ish or Baltic-ish, but exactly Lithuanish.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I doubt if scientists discoveries could be outdated. They were politically uncomfortable therefore discontinued.
    I found his research after massive strange names in N.Dvina basin - Vaga, Lupja, Litvinovo, Litvinskoje, Kotlas, Lambas in Шенкурский район, Архангельская область
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ncxln6eho...%20x2.jpg?dl=0
    Lithuanian antonyms in N.Russia were confirmed by Toporov
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfatzeh0ss...nymes.jpg?dl=0

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    Another interesting fact http://gramoty.ru/index.php?no=590&act=full&key=bb
    грамота за номером 590. Найденная в слоях последней трети XI века в 1981 году, она содержит всего один загадочный знак и четыре слова: «Литва въстала на Корелу». Знаменитый исследователь Новгорода, академик Валентин Янин, пишет о ней: «Грамота №590 является донесением новгородского лазутчика о начатых Литвой действиях.
    But how Litva managed to sneak to Karela so the Novgorodian spy should report this
    огибая Финский залив, литовский военный отряд не­минуемо должен был пройти вблизи центральных, районов Новго­родской земли, создавая непосредственную угрозу этим районам http://www.kirjazh.spb.ru/biblio/piz...bg/pizv_g0.htm
    I think «Литва въстала на Корелу» means «Литва вoстала на Корелу» - Litva already was in Karela and made uprising.
    It was no Lithuanian kingdom that time and Литва could mean traveling and leading service in the sense A.Dubonis wrote.

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    8-3bd9866dce.jpg
    I think this is nice article to sum up the latest on Baltic hydronims in Russia (picture above comes from it, it shows min darker region and max region of Baltic toponyms):
    Проблематика изучения гидронимии балтийского происхождения на территории России (2015, Valery Vasilev).

    I think what really lacks is research of timeframes and exact Baltic source (Lithuanian, Lettigalian, East Baltic, West Baltic, proto-Baltic, Baltoid?) for those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Another interesting fact http://gramoty.ru/index.php?no=590&act=full&key=bb
    грамота за номером 590. Найденная в слоях последней трети XI века в 1981 году, она содержит всего один загадочный знак и четыре слова: «Литва въстала на Корелу». Знаменитый исследователь Новгорода, академик Валентин Янин, пишет о ней: «Грамота №590 является донесением новгородского лазутчика о начатых Литвой действиях.
    But how Litva managed to sneak to Karela so the Novgorodian spy should report this
    огибая Финский залив, литовский военный отряд не­минуемо должен был пройти вблизи центральных, районов Новго­родской земли, создавая непосредственную угрозу этим районам http://www.kirjazh.spb.ru/biblio/piz...bg/pizv_g0.htm
    I think «Литва въстала на Корелу» means «Литва вoстала на Корелу» - Litva already was in Karela and made uprising.
    It was no Lithuanian kingdom that time and Литва could mean traveling and leading service in the sense A.Dubonis wrote.
    Litva fought Novgordians and Pskovians in early 12th and 13th century. Approximate carbon dating of the birch-bark (gramota 590) is (1075–1100)

    --
    В 1198 году под контроль Литвы переходит Полоцк[2], с этого времени Полоцкая земля становится плацдармом для экспансии Литвы на север и северо-восток. Начинаются литовские вторжения непосредственно в новгородско-псковские (1183, 1200, 1210, 1214, 1217, 1224, 1225, 1229, 1234)
    ---

    In the past some Karelians (Korela) lived a further south and south-west than present day Karelia. Present day Tver Karelians migrated in Tver region (east of eastern Latvia ) after Sweden defeated Russia in 1617. Orthodox Karelians refused to convert in Lutheran religion. The original home-land of Tver Karelians was
    'Votskaya pyatina'. Ancestors of Tver Karelians lived just north of Novgorod to the west of Volkhov river in western Votskaya Pyatina. See the map below. If Litva fought Novgorodians, then Karelians settled to the west of the Volkhov river were within their reach.





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    Thanks for info about Tver karelians, but it's almost 500 year later.
    Toporov wrote Lithuanian antonyms comes from middle of I c AD.
    It fits with E.Lithuanian barrow culture expansion.
    Also antonyms never changed after one or several military attacks unless old population wiped out and new settled.
    There are mentions Litva served in Polock as mercenaries and later took over.
    In 1240, Polotsk became a vassal of Lithuanian princes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polotsk
    Polotsk received a charter of autonomy guaranteeing that the grand dukes ′will not introduce new, nor destroy the old′.
    This warranty wouldn't change antonyms.
    And it's 150 years later uprising in Karela.

    Another interesting story about Kalevala.
    It appears KALEVAALA was a fiction story from 19c. based on "very common placenames Kalevaala" and "kalevaala comes from Lithuanian "kalvis" - "smith" or diminutive "kalviala". https://www.dropbox.com/s/wruom3abcp...alvis.jpg?dl=0

    It fits with Litva function - to provide traveling guiding service you need horses that needs horseshoes. So smithy was necessary in every horse changing station.

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    There's also a birch bark letter saying that in 1066 Lithuanians attacked Karelia.

    Novgorod treebark tablet #590


    Also there was some Lithuanian involvement in Novgorod/Ingria later on in 14th/15th few Lithuanians served as princes/military rulers. Such as Narimantas his son Patrikas and later Lengvenis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Thanks for info about Tver karelians, but it's almost 500 year later.
    Their home-land was west of Volkhov river recorded in the 15th century. it was described on the map after Moscow principality destroyed Novgorodian republic. Likely Karelians lived to west of Volkhov river in the 11th and 12th centuries too. There's no reason to assume that region was empty and Karelians settled it after 11th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    T


    Also there was some Lithuanian involvement in Novgorod/Ingria later on in 14th/15th few Lithuanians served as princes/military rulers. Such as Narimantas his son Patrikas and later Lengvenis
    Litva had close contacts with Pskovians and Novgorodians. Dovmont (Domant) was likely son of Mindiaugas and older brother of Troiden. He his home-land and became a prince of Pskovians. He was a talented commander defeating Orden on several occasions. During his time Pskovians escaped Novgorodians vassalage/

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    Case of N1c-M2783+ is interesting. Its closest relatives are found in Sweden and Finland. Why it is SO common, especially among Baltic people and their descendants?

    There are quite large amounts of N-L550 in Belarus and Russia (they are Slavic countries, not Baltic)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Belarusians
    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    There is a study based on a sample size of 1086 subjects representing all ethnographic regions of Belarus proportionally. 109 out of 1085 (10%) were tested for N1c1-L550 . Back then it was call South-Baltic clade.

    Russians were also in the study represented by 545 subjects from different regions of Russia. Overall frequency of N1c1 was 14% among Russians. But only 40%-50% of N1c1 (5.6%-7% overall) was N1c-L550. Other clades were similar to those found in Ural and Karelia.
    Two kits from Poland (#172478 and #N9209) - first from Lower Silesia, second from Greater Poland - are Y4706+. Y4706 is a "brother" clade for M2783.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lyakh View Post
    Case of N1c-M2783+ is interesting. Its closest relatives are found in Sweden and Finland. Why it is SO common, especially among Baltic people and their descendants?

    There are quite large amounts of N-L550 in Belarus and Russia (they are Slavic countries, not Baltic)?

    [FONT=Verdana]
    M2783+ is likely a Baltic legacy , just as Z92+. But Balts were probably not genetically homogeneous given vast territories they settled in the past.
    Last edited by Volat; 09-09-16 at 23:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    There's also a birch bark letter saying that in 1066 Lithuanians attacked Karelia.

    Novgorod treebark tablet #590


    Also there was some Lithuanian involvement in Novgorod/Ingria later on in 14th/15th few Lithuanians served as princes/military rulers. Such as Narimantas his son Patrikas and later Lengvenis
    How Litva managed to sneak to Karela so the Novgorodian spy should report this?
    огибая Финский залив, литовский военный отряд не­минуемо должен был пройти вблизи центральных, районов Новго­родской земли, создавая непосредственную угрозу этим районам http://www.kirjazh.spb.ru/biblio/piz...bg/pizv_g0.htm
    I think «Литва въстала на Корелу» means «Литва вoстала на Корелу» - Litva already was in Karela and made uprising.
    It was no Lithuanian kingdom that time and Литва could mean traveling and leading service in the sense A.Dubonis wrote.

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    Lithuanian involvement was mainly with Novgorod it was just that Karelia was contested region and Swedes with Novgorod fought over control of it, Lithuanians supported Swedes.


    1183 – 1184 m. žiemą Lietuva staiga surengė pirmą didelį antpuolį į Rusios žemes. Lietuviai nusiaubė ne tik Polocko kunigaikštystę, bet pasiekė net ir Naugardo žemei priklausantį Pskovą, kuriam padarė daug žalos. (Novgorodo pirmasis metraštis)
    1188 m. Konflikte tarp Švedijos ir Naugardo karelai buvo Naugardo sąjungininkai. Kovodami prieš juos, lietuviai rėmė švedus.
    Lietuvių antpuoliai į Naugardą jau buvo įprastas dalykas. Rudenį polockiečiai ir lietuviai jau kartu puolė Velikije Lukus. (Novgorodo pirmasis metraštis)
    1191 m. Polocko ir Naugardo kunigaikščiai planavo pulti Lietuvą, bet savo planų neįvykdė. Naugardiečiai, atrodo, norėjo atkeršyti lietuviams už tai, kad, jiems kariaujant su Švedija, lietuviai užpuolė Naugardo sąjungininkus karelus. Tai rodo, kad Lietuva turėjo politinių interesų tolimuose kraštuose.
    1198 m. lietuvių antpuoliai į Naugardą jau buvo įprastas dalykas. Daug ką pasako metraštininko užuomina, kad Naugardo kunigaikščio Jaroslavo sūnus Iziaslavas „buvo pasodintas [Velikije] Lukuose kunigaikščiauti ir ginti Naugardą nuo Lietuvos, ir ten [1198 m. mirė“. Tų pačių metų rudenį polockiečiai ir lietuviai jau kartu puolė Velikije Lukus. Kai žiemą Jaroslavas išžygiavo prieš Polocką, “polockiečiai pasitiko [jį] nusilenkdami” ir sudarė taiką. Matyt, Naugardo žemę jie puolė tik lietuvių verčiami.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    lietuviai užpuolė Naugardo sąjungininkus karelus. Tai rodo, kad Lietuva turėjo politinių interesų tolimuose kraštuose.
    Tai Baranausko interpretacijos :)

    Karela was nowadays Finland + Karelia before Swedish-Novgorodian treaty and partition 1323.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedis..._its_aftermath
    They managed to take and burn down Swedish capital - Sigtuna in the summer 1187.
    Erik chronicle says about Karelian foray:
    They went on a and calm one that in the storm to Mälaren and they stayed quite secretly in the archipelago of Svea usually with the secret army. Once they got such a notion that they burned Sigtuna, burned it along the bottoms and the town did not get help anywhere. The archbishop Jon was killed there and many heathens were happy from it that the Christians were so unlucky. And the whole of Karelia and Russia were happy about it.


    No such military operation heard form Litva that time.
    Hundred years later during Mindaugas reign territory was small East Lithuania http://www.sarmatas.lt/wp-content/up...o_lietuva2.jpg.
    How Litva could fight powerfull Karela in 11c AD?
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/305t8f659r...01335.jpg?dl=0

  25. #125
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    >How Litva could fight powerfull Karela in 11c AD?
    Up until about 1180~ served as mercenaries/
    auxiliaries for Polotsk dukes and were under their influence so they might have or not served their interest and you severely underestimating their ability. After 1180~ there were Lithuanian military raids in all directions Livonia/Rus/Poland between 1201-1263 there are recorded 75 raids. Even prior Mindaugas people such as Zvelgaitis raided Estonia and gathered slaves in there, I don't see how they couldn't reach Karelia. Yes the state surely couldn't exist in 11th century, but then again sources about Lithuania in 11th century are really scarce and speculating what really was happening from one sentence from that birch bark is far fetching. The same Hypatian Codex mentions that in 1230 there were Lithuanian merchants in Novgorod and this is all prior the formation of state and Mindaugas coming into power.

    And I think in 1187 those were Curonians with Oeslians who burned Sigtuna, not Karelians.

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