N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

[Volat]

arvistro posted the map of Baltic hydronyms by linguist Vasiliev already.



Article published in journal of Linguistics by Vasiliev in 2015

The problems of studying the Baltic origins of hydronyms on the territory of Russia


Валерий Л. Васильев



Abstract


The article raises a wide range of issues related to the ancient presence of Balts in Russian hydronymy. The entire eastern half of the vast Old Baltic ethno-historical area overlapped with regions of European Russia. The names of rivers and lakes are the main source that allows to ascertain the extent of their ancient settlement as well as some features of their language. This paper provides an overview of the history of the study of hydronyms of Baltic origin on the territory of Russia, including the criticism of certain previous works, and briefly highlights a number of issues, among which are: 1) the refinement of the South-eastern, Eastern and especially North-eastern borders of the Old Baltic range, 2) the correlation of the Baltic linguistic elements with the Finnish and the Iranian elements, 3) the relationship of Baltic hydronymy to archaeological cultures, localizable in European Russia, 4) the relative density of the Baltic stratum in different Russian regions, 5) the optimization of techniques related to searching and confirmation of Baltic water names. Maps are provided to show the North-eastern flank of the Baltic hydronymic areal and the maximum geographical extent of Eastern Baltic hydronymy.


The article is in Russian: http://revije.ff.uni-lj.si/linguistica/article/view/6308

In short, there are maximum number of Baltic hydronyms till Ilmen lake (outer shaded area). Minimum number of hydronyms till middle Volkhov river (inner shaded area) . There enclaves with high concentration of Baltic hydronyms. There are no Baltic hydronyms further north ie in Karelia and Archangel region of Russia.

 

[Norvila]

Toporov states baltiški Šiaurės ir Šiaurės vakarų hidronimijos bei to- ponimijos bruožai jau buvo atskleisti (jų kilmę su tam tik- romis išlygomis galima priskirti laikotarpiui nuo I tūkstant- mečio antrosios pusės) Baltic antonyms in Russia North and North West most likely comes from the second half of the first millennia. "There are no Baltic hydronyms further north ie in Karelia and Archangel region of Russia." - this is simply not true. Check the map around Litvinovo, Vaga, Kotlas, Lambas in Archangelsk oblast if you mistrust academic Matveev A.K. https://www.dropbox.com/s/v47a5spn0wu6dfu/Litv- prie S.Dvina.png?dl=0 I can't find such scientist Валерий Л. Васильев on google. I doubt if he knows Matveev A.K. works from literature list. It's not very scientific way to state something doesn't exist if you didn't found it yet

 

[Volat]

Toporov states baltiški Šiaurės ir Šiaurės vakarų hidronimijos bei to- ponimijos bruožai jau buvo atskleisti (jų kilmę su tam tik- romis išlygomis galima priskirti laikotarpiui nuo I tūkstant- mečio antrosios pusės) Baltic antonyms in Russia North and North West most likely comes from the second half of the first millennia. "There are no Baltic hydronyms further north ie in Karelia and Archangel region of Russia." - this is simply not true. Check the map around Litvinovo, Vaga, Kotlas, Lambas in Archangelsk oblast if you mistrust academic Matveev A.K. https://www.dropbox.com/s/v47a5spn0wu6dfu/Litv- prie S.Dvina.png?dl=0 I can't find such scientist Валерий Л. Васильев on google. I doubt if he knows Matveev A.K. works from literature list. It's not very scientific way to state something doesn't exist if you didn't found it yet

Vasiliev, Valery Leonidovich - Russian linguist, doctor of philological sciences, professor in Department of Russian language of Novgorod State University. He is the author of more than 100 works on the history of the Russian language and dialectology, Slavic onomastics, general and Slavic linguistics.

He lived and worked in Novgorod having published many papers on the subject of toponyms in northern Russia. Search his name Васильев Валерий Леонидович топонимы.

The papers go through editorial for peer-reviews. The paper of Vasiliev I referenced above was published in a respectable journal of linguistic. Vasiliev outlined the issues in previous study I referenced. Some of the Baltic toponyms had equivalent in Finland. If one really tries he or she will find Baltic toponyms all over Europe and western Asia with dubious explanations or referencing Indo-European cognates. Linguistics is not exact science where is you get right or wrong answers. There are plenty discussions and debates particularly in the field of toponymy. Just because Matveev published a paper on Lithuanian (not even ancient Baltic) hydronyms in Archangel region does not mean he was right.

 

[arvistro]

If you have Litvinovo (!!) in Archangelsk, you should not be too surprised to find some Lithuanian toponyms around.
Other story is how old they are (look rather young-ish) and how widespread and when how this colony came to be.

 

[Volat]

If you have Litvinovo (!!) in Archangelsk, you should not be too surprised to find some Lithuanian toponyms around.
Other story is how old they are (look rather young-ish) and how widespread and when how this colony came to be.

There are many places around Litvinovo in Russia. Probably in Siberia and the Far East too. I think the toponym maybe be derived from a common surname Litvinov. It is not uncommon to have villages and small towns to have such names. The surname Litvinov is derived from a citizen of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. In Russia back in the days Litvin was either Belarusian or Lithuanian. In some instances to Poles. Jews were called Litvaks. Maybe in some instances the toponym is derived from the fact there were immigrants from the Grand Duchy. The origin of the surname Litvinov. http://www.ufolog.ru/names/order/литвинов

 

[Volat]

There are Lithuanians living in Karelia. But those migrated during Soviet era in search of employment.

Национально-культурная литовская автономия Карелии, а также все наши друзья и едиономышленники.
По данным переписи населения 2002 года в Республике Карелия проживает тысяча семьдесят три представителя литовской национальности. Большинство литовских семей обосновались здесь в советское время, когда многие отправлялись в Карелию на лесозаготовки. Поэтому большая часть литовцев проживает в отдаленных районах республики. В Петрозаводске живут двести двадцать восемь литовцев. В 2004 году по инициативе Генерального консульства Литвы в Санкт-Петербурге литовцы Карелии впервые собрались в Петрозаводске и решили основать свою общественную организацию – местную национально-культурную автономию. Официальное оформление состоялось 29 декабря 2005 года. Так впервые в истории Карелии появилась общественная организация призванная возрождать и поддерживать самобытность литовцев на карельской земле.


Their social-network page : https://vk.com/club621530

 

[Norvila]

Dear colleagues,
I think we're not in the position to judge conclusion of the eminent scientists.
Expressing of the personal opinion will hardly lead to the fruitful discussion.

 

[arvistro]

Dear colleagues,
I think we're not in the position to judge conclusion of the eminent scientists.
Expressing of the personal opinion will hardly lead to the fruitful discussion.

What to do when eminent scientists have disagreements? Stop discussing?

 

[Volat]

Dear colleagues,
I think we're not in the position to judge conclusion of the eminent scientists.
Expressing of the personal opinion will hardly lead to the fruitful discussion.

All major studies are given consideration by scholars. If one picks only selected studies to fill his or her views or opinions pointing to the credentials of the author, then it is not a scholarly approach. Such approach is prone to a selection bias. We are not linguists, I know I am not. But I am not offering thorough review of linguistic studies either.

 

[Volat]

Matveev argues that formants with suffixes -as -us cannot be not derived from Baltic-Finnic languages in general. Then he explained possible meanings of hydronyms searching for equivalent in Lithuanian language making reference to ancient Baltic substrate among numerous Finnic toponyms of the Russian North.

In conclusion, he states that he was only proposing a hypothesis and he was far from convinced the issue with hydronyms having -as and -us suffixes was resolved at the time he was publishing the article. As Saami hydronyms were not analysed. Komi-Permic languages have hydronyms with similar -us and -as formants.

Also, Uralic origin of hydronyms with suffixes -as and -us in northern Russia was supported by linguist Eino Kalima of Finland. Scholars E. M. Pospelov, G. J. Simina, A. I. Popov of Russia. And others.

Matveev was a prolific publisher. I wonder if he changed his opinion given new data and research since 1962.


Conclusion of Matveev on the subject in article (1962).

 

[Norvila]

I'm glad Matveev publication finally qualified to read till the end
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rd0gq2rj4uvh6yo/Matvee AK -as -us.jpg?dl=0
You should keep in mind CCCP political climate of that time.
It was official theory Balts came from the Volga Dnieper basin.
Matveev brave statement means they were also in the Russia North.
It's very likely someone advised to keep away from the topic that contradicts political line "druzba narodov".
It was very common in soviet time Lithuania also.

 

[Norvila]

I'd like to explain why Vasiljev works doesn't contradicts Matveev and Toporov.
It's all about the method they used.
Each of them analyzes antonyms in the specific geographical area - Valsiljev - Novgorod, Matveev - North East Siberia, Toporov - around Moskva and south.
All of them has found Baltic antonyms, but non of them checked entire Russia or Europe with methods available now.
Vasiljev didn't quote Matveev and seems like didn't knew his publications nor antonyms he discovered.
So I think it's fits well together.

 

[Volat]

I'm glad Matveev publication finally qualified to read till the end
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rd0gq2rj4uvh6yo/Matvee AK -as -us.jpg?dl=0
You should keep in mind CCCP political climate of that time.
It was official theory Balts came from the Volga Dnieper basin.
Matveev statement means they were also in the Russia North.

Baltic hydronyms outside Lithuania, Latvia, eastern Prussia were found in Belarus and Smolensk in early 1900s.

Later, in western Moscow, upper Oka and western Tver regions. A bit later even further south of upper Oka in upper Don. Toporov and Trubachev have published plenty on Baltic hydronyms of western Russia.

The aforementioned article of Vasiliev has a good account of major studies published on Baltic hydronyms. And the issues with studying Baltic hydronyms in Russia. Soviet scholars didn’t have political dogmas as to where were Baltic and Finno-Ugric settlements to the best of my knowledge. The had for Slavs though. Politicians were maintaining eastern Slavs are the same people for political reasons.

In addition, all archaeological cultures of Baltic origin coincide with the regions of numerous Baltic hydronyms. Research in archaeology and linguistic was done independently.

Matveev was probably the only scholar suggesting hydronyms with -as and -us to be Baltic in northern Russia. There are probably ancient Baltic hydronyms in northern Russia. But their number is scarce. Baltic Finns have a large layer of ancient Baltic loan-words which they obtained as pre-proto-Finns were migrating from Volg-Oka region towards Baltic shores. In theory, some of those ancient Baltic loan-words could be used to name waterways and lakes in Karelia.

I am looking at dictionary of hydronyms in Vologda region published in 2010. The author states in reference to another source that hydronyms with -us in Vologda are Saami in origin and hydronyms with -as suffix are Baltic Finnic. Page 8 : http://www.booksite.ru/fulltext/natural/kyznecslovar/text.pdf

---


If there were some historic records, archaeological cultures or Baltic hydronyms in abandance in northern Russia, then readers may accept Lithuanian or Aukstaitian settlements in Karelia and Archangel in iron age or medieval times. Otherwise, it seems to be far-fetch making such claims on the basis of few Baltic hydronyms by 1-2 authors

 

[Volat]

I'd like to explain why Vasiljev works doesn't contradicts Matveev and Toporov.
It's all about the method they used.
Each of them analyzes antonyms in the specific geographical area - Valsiljev - Novgorod, Matveev - North East Siberia, Toporov - around Moskva and south.
All of them has found Baltic antonyms, but non of them checked entire Russia or Europe with methods available now.
Vasiljev didn't quote Matveev and seems like didn't knew his publications nor antonyms he discovered.
So I think it's fits well together.

Matveev published plenty on hydronyms of northern Russia, so has Vasiliev on north-western Russia. Very likely he knows the works of Matveev and probably referenced him in his other studies. The focus of Vasiliev's study was on Baltic hydronyms, while Matveev studies of northern Russia are mostly on Finno-Ugric hydronyms.

 

[Norvila]

I think problem is in "national science" mentality i.e. territory > tribe > nation > country.
Common approach is - mono linguistic tribe lived in the territory and evolved to the nation>country.
But in the reality many languages were spoken in the same territory by different social classes.
After "spring of nations" it was common to search for the roots of the "nation" and protect from others by denying other views to the facts.
F.e. there are number of publications stating Fino-Ugric language group is artificial and languages has nothing in common.
But Finish scientists take this as an attack to the national pride.
If someone ask them about loanwords they react the same.
It went to the new level after 90-ties in Russia.

 

[arvistro]

Wait, wait!
No serious scientist is saying Finno-ugric language group is artificial. All serious scientists acknowledge presence of loanwords in Baltic Finnics. Extensive work is in progress in Finnish linguistics to locate time and source of loanwords. Reading their works on Baltic loans in Finnic is very educational to get better view on our own languages.

 

[Norvila]

Baltic loanwords to Finnish and Saami are the best kept secret.

The first wrote about them Danish scientist Thomsen (1869; 1890).
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He found about 400 loanwords also gave approximate timing of the transfer 200 BC-700 AD.
No internet publication available.

Then Liukkonen 1999 found loanwords could reach 500+.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]No internet publication available.

Baltic loanwords are from the are of construction, agriculture and all family relations.
Loanwords didn't came via Latvia, Estonia - they has less. Saami has more.
Loanwords are from the earliest time - before German, Swedish, Russian loanwords.
So later loanwords could replaced earlier Baltic.
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Example of this could be loanword from the „dermo“ (Liukannen 1999).
Means initially it could be thousands of Baltic loanwords to Finish.
[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Finish has exact quantity of phonemes as Lithuanian, other FU languages has no.
No publication about this.
[/FONT][/FONT]
Hungarians first disagree about grouping with fins.
There are Italian linguists publications also.
Check
The Untenability of the Finno-Ugric Theory from a Linguistic Point of View.
Today’s Finnish linguistic science strongly revises the Finno-Ugric language theory. Finnish linguists research the Finnish-Old Germanic relationship, or are the followers of the theory of Finnish continuity, rather than the Finno-Ugric language relationship.
http://www.magtudin.org/Maracz L. Untenability of Finno-Ugric Theory.htm

 

[Volat]

Hungarians first disagree about grouping with fins.
There are Italian linguists publications also.
Check
The Untenability of the Finno-Ugric Theory from a Linguistic Point of View.
Today’s Finnish linguistic science strongly revises the Finno-Ugric language theory. Finnish linguists research the Finnish-Old Germanic relationship, or are the followers of the theory of Finnish continuity, rather than the Finno-Ugric language relationship.
http://www.magtudin.org/Maracz L. Untenability of Finno-Ugric Theory.htm

There was a debate if Finnic , Ugric and Samoydic should be grouped together as single Uralic branch. Or even Finno-Ugric ie Finnic and Ugric without Samoyedic. Finnic is a linguistic group, which includes Baltic-Finnic (Finnish, Estonians, Veps, Karelians) , Volgaic-Finnic (Erzyan, Moksh, Mari), Permic (Komi, Udmurt) and Saami. Saami maybe grouped with Baltic Finnic or Volgaic Finnic. Some related languages disappeared such as Livonian; languages of Merja, Meschera, Muroma. There is no debate about Finnic languages being related as per different sources.

 

[Norvila]

The first wrote about them Danish scientist Thomsen (1869; 1890).
He found about 400 loanwords also gave approximate timing of the transfer 200 BC-700 AD.

It fits material culture finds and wooden hill forts construction.

 

[Volat]

According to archaeologist Lang of Tartu university pre-proto-Finnic having met and absorbed Baltic loan-words in areas south-east of Baltic shore (Russia) meeting
proto-Germanic in coastal areas of Estonia and Finland. Contacts of proto-Finnic with proto-Baltic was earlier than contacts between proto-Finnic and proto-Germanic. The first point of contacts between pre-proto-Finnic and proto-Balts was between Estonia and Moscow.

As to the formation of Proto-Finnic, it is important to keep in mind that the South-Western Passage served at the same time as a contact zone of Finno-Ugric and Baltic settlements (the so-called Upper-Oka, Dnieper-Dvina, and Striated Pottery cultures). If the Finno-Ug rians moved(together with their pots) in this passage, their language could have adopted Proto-Baltic loans on their way to the west. Certainly they could have absorbed some Baltic loans already in the Oka–Moscow region earlier, before moving out, as linguistically argued by Parpola (2012: 155). However, as they then still were hunters rather than farmers, it does not explain so much the loans in the sphere of agriculture (as exemplified by Vaba 2011: 751, 753 and Junttila 2012). Thus, they had to adopt a big share of Baltic loans later when moving westwards, or as also argued by Santeri Junttila (2012: 261): “we could look for the contact area somewhere between Estonia in the west and the surroundings of Moscow in the east, a zone with evidence of Uralic settlement in the north and Baltic on the south side”.

Lang goes into details why he holds such opinion on pages 70-72


Formation of Proto-Finnic – an archaeological scenario from the Bronze Age / Early Iron Age by Valter Lang, University of Tartu, Estonia. Finno-Ugric congress , 2015. http://www.oulu.fi/sites/default/files/content/CIFU12-PlenaryPapers.pdf