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Thread: N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony 6whiskeys View Post
    I'm not sure if this thread has died or moved on but it was a fascinating read. I was interested in what made Arvisto abandon his original hypothesis as it appeared to construct a storyline which did not conflict with known facts? Also, if the debate regarding NIC1 in Baltic areas has moved on I'd be grateful for a heads up as to where.

    My interest is somewhat selfish as a N1C1-L550-M2783-L551-N-Y17696 male whose ancestral line traces back to the Lvov/Lviw area in the far SE.Poland/W.Ukraine region for a least 400 years. I'd be fascinated to hear peoples opinions on whether this state of affairs is most likely due to those ancestors having remained stationary while the different nation states sprang up and fluctuated around them, whether it might have been due to mass migrations in historical times or even earlier related to known events....
    Recent papers suggest that N1c around the Baltic Sea clearly originates from an Finnic population, not Norse or Baltic.
    The debate will be how long they remained Finnic, what was their role in the receiving Germanic and Baltic cultures and who the hell where they if they appeared so late in the region, we must have some mentions of them in the historical records and folklore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    Recent papers suggest that N1c around the Baltic Sea clearly originates from an Finnic population, not Norse or Baltic.
    The debate will be how long they remained Finnic, what was their role in the receiving Germanic and Baltic cultures and who the hell where they if they appeared so late in the region, we must have some mentions of them in the historical records and folklore.
    Well, some down to Earth scenarios are possible.
    1) N1c comes to Baltic together with iron working, some centuries before AD. They Finnify big part of local population. For example, Liivi folk (coastal Finns) I think will turn out basically Finnified old Kivutkalns people. They are quite R1a rich population with some N1c.
    2) Baltic-to-be N1c still is hiding somewhere. This N1c spreads most likely after 500, after depopulation that followed the year without sun. Probably they took on fishing resources and or trade routes deep into coastal Prussia, Lithuania, etc.
    3) Later "True Balts" gradually arrived into region and Baltified N1c folk. Only some linguistic traces of this Finno substrate can be found in Lithuanian language.

    The problem however is why only this particular N1c spread in Balts, when Estonians had different types of it.

    Anyway, first thing to await for now is what Kivutkalns N1c will look like in terms of for example Fennoscandian admixture.

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    N1C1 could be spread to Finland, Karela and N.E. Sweden during 12-15 c. AD.
    In the late 14th century, the Novgorodians set up the fiefs of Korela, Oreshek, Koporye, Luga, and Ladoga as a sort of buffer state between their core dominions and Sweden. Several Lithuanian dukes renowned for their military skills were invited to rule this Ingrian duchy; Narimantas, his son Patrikas, and then Lengvenis. They helped fortify the Russian-Swedish border and built several new forts in the region, including one in Yama.
    Birch letter from around 1191 has message "Litva vstala na Korelu" (Litva stood on Karela).
    http://karel.su/230-litva-vstala-na-korelu.html
    This let to assume Lithuanian mercenaries were contracted to fight with Sweden from beginning of Swedish - Novgorodian wars or earlier.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedis...vgorodian_Wars
    This explains way how the "Lithuanian language became Lingua Franca in Finland, Karela and Estonia" according to academic Kalevi Wiik.

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    Another possibility to spread N1C1 was the fur trade route that passed Lithuania to Wroclav via Alps to Venice:
    "The merchants of Wroclaw ... began to reexport Russian furs to northern Italy at the end of the 13th century. Among all these trade links of the city of Wrocław, the most important turned out to be the routes of Lithuania), crossing Wrocław, continuing either to southern Germany or to Austria, and, finally, all reaching Venice. In that direction, Wrocław merchants transported principally natural products: furs, wax, and the red dye of Polish origin called czerwiec. ...As we comparing the Wrocław tariffs of 1266 and of 1327, we observe a rise of imported goods from about a dozen to about eighty." So trade volume rose 667% or 10% a year.
    http://www.fnp.org.pl/monografie/ima...liwski-summary[0].pdf

    The same mercenaries stationed in Karela (Finland after division) most likely were involved in fur trade and transportation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    There is this mystery as to why Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians, also former Prussian lands) have so much N1C in them. N1C ~ R1A in our lands. R1A is the hg of initial bearers of our IE language, that is believed to be quite archaic and conserved IE.
    What I have found recently googling up and reading through several English and Russian forums and sites is that Latvian/Lithuanian/Belarus/Prussian/NE Polish N1C is of different subclade than the version most popular in Finland & Estonia. I've read quite a lot of theories coming up, i.e. Balts and Baltic languages being created by mixed R1A/N1C people. All this would make sense if there was continuity with Estonia. But they (Estonians) appear to have two types of N, the Baltic one mixed with the Finnic one.

    This is how it looks in Tree:

    • N1c1a1a1 (CTS2929/VL29): found in Russia (incl. Volga-Ural), the Baltic, Sweden and Hungary
      • N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic countries, and in places settled by the Vikings. Varyag Rurikids of Russia was under this L550, but not further down the tree.
        • N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia
          • N1c1a1a1a1a (L149.2, L551)- Lithuanian Great Prince Gediminas Clan (includes Polish, Hungarian, Bohemian temporar rulers Jagellons, Russian/Belorussian/Ukrainian Princes of former Great Lithuanian Duchy territories)
          • N1c1a1a1a1b (L591) -
          • N1c1a1a1a1c (L1027) - Lithuanian Prince Giedrus Clan


      • N1c1a1a1b (L1022): found throughout north-east Europe, especially in Finland

    • N1c1a1a2 (Z1936)
      • N1c1a1a2a (Z1925, Z1935): found in Finland, Lapland, Scandinavia, the Volga-Ural and the Altai



    So, question is - could it be that at some point in history L550 or L1025 got into Baltic tribes aristocracy? Could be through Prussia originally. Took it over and spread their seed all over the places of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine) and Baltic tribes (Prussia, Latvia), and then through Jagellons in Poland. Having some offsprings as far as Slovakia, Hungary, etc where Jagellons temporarily ruled.

    Please read carefully above. It comes from compilation of many sources which might not be 100% correct. So if you have information that contradicts above please share.

    I've read thread and it doesn't look answered and I'm curious what data was used for this statement, because in 1945 native population of those areas were replaced by poles and russians. Unless there is some archeological evidence used, this question does not make much sense.

    1000 -1500 years ago there was constant influx of new people from north, as it is easier to settle on shores for more mobile sailors. Kursenieki(they are new Curonian ethnicity, that emerged on base of Curonians) on wiki show map, that they had settlements up to Gdansk(Danzig). Also Curonians are the only tribe, that had name given from foreigners - as a variant of corsare - sea people, which for the most of the recent history(last 1000 years) were mixed - baltic and finnic people.

    Curonians are closely linked to other prussians, than eastern balts and zemgalian/zemaitian tribes. Initially they were inhabiting Saaremaa, but later were pushed back to Courland peninsula. There was a heavily mixing of influx of finnic tribes after and it does not help, that they forced large part of livonians to resettle to Daugava.

    There is not that much mystery of why some R1a were assimilated(as that is what happened to R1a in east for the last 2000-3000 years), as that is natural process, that happens over long time. Only wars eradicate neighbours, but living side by side has some cultural consequences for neighbours. Also, during Terra Marianna a lot of finnic people were captured and settled among locals. There are many such groups, who were resettled which make distinctive groups among locals, so that is not really a mystery if you take those into account. Autosomal chromosome makes perfect job of making people similar, even if their paternal or maternal paths are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    5) Assumption, which I am not that sure. N1C1 in South Baltic most likely appeared after 500 AD (which is not that far after common ancestor "B"). It did not just "appear", it became ruling class. Why after 500 AD? First, there is a Prussian legend of Bruten and Widevut who established Prussian statehood around 600. Second, according to Gimbutas Balts if my memory serves me right starting after 500 AD archeological findings show that peacefull life near Baltics ended, broken arrows findings, more military equipment, etc. Third, Truso was established at the end of 8th century.
    There are some similarities with viking invasions to eastern Baltic shore and what happened with viking invasions in Britain. They mixed with locals and in next generations created mixed ethnicity. I've read 30 years ago papers by Russian historians that stated, that early towns of Ilmen "slavs" were created among finnic locals not by slavic, but by joint prussian and prussian-varangian settlers initially. Of course they were not as populous as locals, so N1c could have become nobles, who later created Kievan Rus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Well, some down to Earth scenarios are possible.
    1) N1c comes to Baltic together with iron working, some centuries before AD. They Finnify big part of local population. For example, Liivi folk (coastal Finns) I think will turn out basically Finnified old Kivutkalns people. They are quite R1a rich population with some N1c.
    2) Baltic-to-be N1c still is hiding somewhere. This N1c spreads most likely after 500, after depopulation that followed the year without sun. Probably they took on fishing resources and or trade routes deep into coastal Prussia, Lithuania, etc.
    3) Later "True Balts" gradually arrived into region and Baltified N1c folk. Only some linguistic traces of this Finno substrate can be found in Lithuanian language.

    The problem however is why only this particular N1c spread in Balts, when Estonians had different types of it.

    Anyway, first thing to await for now is what Kivutkalns N1c will look like in terms of for example Fennoscandian admixture.
    It seems theory 1) has been confirmed - some Iron Age Baltic samples had N1c.

    There is N1c from Berčiūnai, Lithuania, dated to 1900-1300 years before present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Well, some down to Earth scenarios are possible.
    1) N1c comes to Baltic together with iron working, some centuries before AD. They Finnify big part of local population. For example, Liivi folk (coastal Finns) I think will turn out basically Finnified old Kivutkalns people. They are quite R1a rich population with some N1c.
    2) Baltic-to-be N1c still is hiding somewhere. This N1c spreads most likely after 500, after depopulation that followed the year without sun. Probably they took on fishing resources and or trade routes deep into coastal Prussia, Lithuania, etc.
    3) Later "True Balts" gradually arrived into region and Baltified N1c folk. Only some linguistic traces of this Finno substrate can be found in Lithuanian language.

    The problem however is why only this particular N1c spread in Balts, when Estonians had different types of it.

    Anyway, first thing to await for now is what Kivutkalns N1c will look like in terms of for example Fennoscandian admixture.
    1) It is rather somewhat too easy to call Liivs coastal Finns... with this style of naming maybe Finns can be called northern Liivs...
    From what I remember from history lessons, 2 out of 3 earliest skulls in Latvia had asian features and third most probably was mediterranian.
    Liivi people originated from Sāmsala. They most probably were remnants of earliest Finnish migrations to Baltic(and they either were so called Baltic Saami people or replaced them), however it seems, that around ~500AD they spread to Courland, causing conflicts with Couronians.
    2) Year without the sun would definitelly reduce avaibility of fish, too :)
    3)Map in eupedia shows a large N1c presence in Prussia, which is dubious data. Many tribes in Prussia practised funeral pyres, so it is speculation at best - we can't have y-dna from ashes, sadly. It is also unknown to what it points - to current russian population, which will have N1c, of course. Prewar population, which had N1c flow via Kursenieki, who inhabitated coast up to Gdansk, or viking era, which makes no sense if there are no ancient y-dna data.

    Later "True Balts" arrived in Latvia and Lithuania from east around 600AD from regions where they had more chances to mix with N1c. Most probably, that Mari has R1a, that is more common to Baltic, so y-dna went both ways. And most probably so called "True Balts" were pushed together with neighbouring N1c because of slavic invasions and most probably your so called "True Balts", or how I call them - Eastern Balts brought into Baltic most of N1c. So far y-dna research in Latvia showed, that eastern areas that did not had livonians had more N1c than expected. And they also should differ from Estonian N1c, because Estonia most probably had multiple migration waves(from north) of N1c and this one is only one such recent massive Baltic migration in last ~1500 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    From: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post451206



    Interestingly, Baltic clades N-L550 and N-L1025 have similar ages and TMRCAs as I2a1b1:

    N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic countries
    N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia

    N-L550 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp
    N-L1025 formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Now compare this to I2a1b1 which (according to Nordtvedt & Verenich) formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp.

    Data on distribution of N1c1a (old name N3) and R1a in Lithuania - from Kasperaviciute 2004:

    http://genofond.invint.net/genofond....df?file_id=966



    Map (southern region marked as SA - inhabited largely by ethnic Poles - has 61,8% R1a and only 29,4% N3):

    This data really destroys original OP research, because Lithuanians inhabited mainly EA region - a lot of them also lived in western Belorussia, where I had lithuanian relatives from my mothers side. Other regions were remnants of other tribes and EA, just like in Latvia eastern side has more N1c, than other regions, which points to Latvian-Lithuanian migration as a biggest source of N1c in Latvia and Lithuania. N1c in Baltic area has mainly nothing to do with vikings, but with Eastern Balts, who heavily mixed with "Finnish" tribes during last couple of thousand years. In Latvia Latvians replaced Selonians(Highlandians - translation from Livonian) and Lithuanians did the same to southern part of them - Aukštaitians(translation - Highlandians) in process keeping name, where Latvians replaced Augšzemnieki inhabited area on right side of Daugava up to the Estonia - extending straight line from EA corner makes area in eastern Latvia, that has dialects of Highlandian.

    PS Just for future use: N1c is now called N1a. Lots of naming changes in short time...

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    Hello everyone. Kindly advise me if this comment is off-topic and should rather be in a new thread, but I noticed that Eupedia's N1c map is highly inaccurate over the Kaliningradskaya Oblast. The entire Kaliningrad population was deported after WW2. I find it highly improbable that there should be an uninterrupted steady flow of N1c across the region into Poland considering the depopulation. Prior to that it was inhabited by people primarily descended from Teutonic Knights. That is in start contrast to the history of Lithuania which fought hard against them. I think there is an honest need to correct that map unless evidence of DNA testing on males proven to be patrilineally descended from men who lived in the area before Stalin depopulated the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khazar View Post
    Hello everyone. Kindly advise me if this comment is off-topic and should rather be in a new thread, but I noticed that Eupedia's N1c map is highly inaccurate over the Kaliningradskaya Oblast. The entire Kaliningrad population was deported after WW2. I find it highly improbable that there should be an uninterrupted steady flow of N1c across the region into Poland considering the depopulation. Prior to that it was inhabited by people primarily descended from Teutonic Knights. That is in start contrast to the history of Lithuania which fought hard against them. I think there is an honest need to correct that map unless evidence of DNA testing on males proven to be patrilineally descended from men who lived in the area before Stalin depopulated the area.
    Teutonic Knights were religious Brotherhood and did not get married, unless you have some idea, that Prussians were only Germanic descendants, which is not true. Somehow people(even in Baltic) think, that Baltic people were in Total War against invaders, but real picture is different - they fought among themselves and Germans gained foothold by landing military support whoever needed it. Some of the conversion mechanisms are very well explained in game Crusader Kings 2, where locals were granted titles, as mass killings of country folks were not economically viable. That's why fighting sides in these wars also took hostages in enemy territory and settled them in their own lands.
    Prussian languages were used up till 17th century and it coincides with influx of refugees from protestant areas and Prussia was part of most bloodiest war in European history, but claiming that it made Prussians extinct is far stretch. Reasons why Prussian language went extinct is in not because they died out, but because Protestantism was their main self-identification and Prussian languages were pushed out of use for other - economical and educational reasons, where more and more educated Prussians simply switched to German language, as Prussian was language of country folks. And that is main difference from Latvia or Estonia, where only ruling class adapted German language and distanced themselves from much larger native population, who used different language and to whom education became available centuries later(under Swedes) than Prussians had it.

    Also, there is some wrong idea, that Lithuania was driving force in fighting against Teutonic Order, which is not really true - the ones that fought against Teutonic Order were Prussians, and later Samogitians. Lithuanians quite regularly invaded Samogitia and even gave it as a present to either Teutonic or Livonian Order. Up to 1400 Lithuania had no power over Samogitia, as it was governed by Samogitian Eldership, which was not under Lithuania. Teutonic order did not even reached Lithuanian lands, but ravaged lands of other tribes, which Lithuania later claimed as their own. Wars in ancient times were not fought exclusively by religious reasons, but also economical - pillaging, ransoms, trade arguments, etc. - nothing much has changed in modern times.
    A lot of Prussians who escaped war, settled in Lithuania and became Lithuanians - and prior WW2 in part of Prussia was known as little Lithuania, as some of the locals were either of Lithuanian descent or Prussians, who switched to Lithuanian. Also there was always steady influx of Kursenieki in 19th century from north up to Poland, who settled mainly in shore area, so it is not that only non-Baltic people settled in Prussia.

    Genetically, Prussians had some(probably - quite a large part) Prussian heritage in them, even if they mixed with others, but similar mixing was going on everywhere else. There are still Prussian descendants of those replaced people, that primarily now live in Germany, so all is fair, if map that shows N1a uses data from Prussian descendants. There might be some N1a influx from Scandinavian vikings, but the main N1a source in modern Baltic populations comes from East and is not related to vikings, though. I think, that this thread was used to look for descendants of those Scandinavians, but somehow data is not readily available to make final conclusions.

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    Well, that is like

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    I love this theory

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    It's kinda difficult to understand it

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    My personal, current understanding of Baltic genetics and history is as follows:

    First there where Cro-Magnon people who formed initial WHG population in northern Europe with a dominant yDNA I1 and I2.

    Then came "proto-celtic" people to the Baltic region carrying R1b, as seen in Zvejnieku kapulauks:

    (censored - can't post links, yet, lol)

    The influence of these people was probably strong enough to add first bits of ANE admixture to the local population and to replace existing language with and old proto-Indo-European variant - at least in some places.

    Then came R1a men and pushed any signs of I1 and I2 yDNA ancestry from the baltic region but the overall WHG genetic admixture remained the same - that could be explained by process of "selective mating" when following generations would choose people with predominant WHG traits over their "own" ANE traits - in process forming a population which continues to be dominated by WHG admixture to this very day but almost completely lacking original I1 and I2 yDNA - contrary to the neighbouring Sweden, Norway and even Finland still retaining reasonably large proportions of old WHG paternal I1 and I2 ancestral lines.

    Now when this was done already and we had what we know as Kunda culture as can be seen here (censored - can't post links, yet, lol) (I really appreciate these quality maps there, made by Maciamo), another "invasion" happened by N1c people, forming the following Narva culture.

    Now the tricky thing here is to figure out who were those N1c people, coming to the Baltic territories - because the majority of current N1c people don't speak Finno-Ugric languages at all but speak Turkic languages instead. That makes me believe that N1c had it's source among Turkic language speaking people, who acquired old Finno-Ugric language from the very same WHG people who were still living in Northern Europe (Fennoscandia?) who have been able to still avoid any significant "colonisation" by ANE men by that time. And then this group of people moved down or west and created what we know as Narva culture - which most probably already spoke a mix of proto-Baltic and proto-Estonian / proto-Liiv languages in the region.

    What seems obvious is that the very same N1c people who came to Baltic also settled as "upper class" or "warrior class" caste which later formed Varyag traders and Warrior groups which in end resulted in known early ruler dynasties in Lithuania and Kiev Rus - Rurikids and Gediminids.

    And the resemblance of Gediminid "columns" to the Rurikid "Raven", which were thought to be just a coincidence was most probably influenced by actual clan sign used by Varyag people of Finno-Ugric / N1c heritage and clearly Scandinavian cultural origin - hence Ttruvar - Thor-war (Warrior of Thor) and other Scandinavian names of old Rurikid rulers.
    Last edited by Klavs; 28-01-19 at 14:41. Reason: hunting typos

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    ( ' Quote' from post #211 )

    "Also, there is some wrong idea, that Lithuania was driving force in fighting against Teutonic Order, which is not really true - the ones that fought against Teutonic Order were Prussians, and later Samogitians. Lithuanians quite regularly invaded Samogitia and even gave it as a present to either Teutonic or Livonian Order. Up to 1400 Lithuania had no power over Samogitia, as it was governed by Samogitian Eldership, which was not under Lithuania. Teutonic order did not even reached Lithuanian lands, but ravaged lands of other tribes, which Lithuania later claimed as their own. Wars in ancient times were not fought exclusively by religious reasons, but also economical - pillaging, ransoms, trade arguments, etc. - nothing much has changed in modern times."


    The Teutonic Order certainly reached Lithuania.

    One of these Tuetonic Knights who fought in Lithuania was an English man, Anthony de Lucy killed in a battle at Kaunas,1368, ( alongside two others Roger Felbrigg, and John de Multon ) on Holy Crusade. His body was brought back to England, and suprisingly in order to identify him, his body was dug up in 1981, and was found perfectly preserved, so much so,that when they cut into his body during an autopsy it was still pink, and when opening his liver ( I think ) it began to bleed. ( over 600 yrs later !!! ) I'm not sure if his DNA has been tested yet, but check, 'St Bees Man, Sir Anthony de Lucy'. there is a video of the excavation and Autopsy.

    He might even have grounds for Saint Hood, based on the bleeding alone.
    Last edited by paul333; 10-02-19 at 19:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laint View Post
    Teutonic Knights were religious Brotherhood and did not get married, unless you have some idea, that Prussians were only Germanic descendants, which is not true. Somehow people(even in Baltic) think, that Baltic people were in Total War against invaders, but real picture is different - they fought among themselves and Germans gained foothold by landing military support whoever needed it. Some of the conversion mechanisms are very well explained in game Crusader Kings 2, where locals were granted titles, as mass killings of country folks were not economically viable. That's why fighting sides in these wars also took hostages in enemy territory and settled them in their own lands.
    Prussian languages were used up till 17th century and it coincides with influx of refugees from protestant areas and Prussia was part of most bloodiest war in European history, but claiming that it made Prussians extinct is far stretch. Reasons why Prussian language went extinct is in not because they died out, but because Protestantism was their main self-identification and Prussian languages were pushed out of use for other - economical and educational reasons, where more and more educated Prussians simply switched to German language, as Prussian was language of country folks. And that is main difference from Latvia or Estonia, where only ruling class adapted German language and distanced themselves from much larger native population, who used different language and to whom education became available centuries later(under Swedes) than Prussians had it.

    Also, there is some wrong idea, that Lithuania was driving force in fighting against Teutonic Order, which is not really true - the ones that fought against Teutonic Order were Prussians, and later Samogitians. Lithuanians quite regularly invaded Samogitia and even
    gave it as a present to either Teutonic or Livonian Order. Up to 1400 Lithuania had no power over Samogitia, as it was governed by Samogitian Eldership, which was not under Lithuania. Teutonic order did not even reached Lithuanian lands, but ravaged lands of other tribes, which Lithuania later claimed as their own. Wars in ancient times were not fought exclusively by religious reasons, but also economical - pillaging, ransoms, trade arguments, etc. - nothing much has changed in modern times.
    A lot of Prussians who escaped war, settled in Lithuania and became Lithuanians - and prior WW2 in part of Prussia was known as little Lithuania, as some of the locals were either of Lithuanian descent or Prussians, who switched to Lithuanian. Also there was always steady influx of Kursenieki in 19th century from north up to Poland, who settled mainly in shore area, so it is not that only non-Baltic people settled in Prussia.

    Genetically, Prussians had some(probably - quite a large part) Prussian heritage in them, even if they mixed with others, but similar mixing was going on everywhere else. There are still Prussian descendants of those replaced people, that primarily now live in Germany, so all is fair, if map that shows N1a uses data from Prussian descendants. There might be some N1a influx from Scandinavian vikings, but the main N1a source in modern Baltic populations comes from East and is not related to vikings, though. I think, that this thread was used to look for descendants of those Scandinavians, but somehow data is not readily available to make final conclusions.
    You can give something that you don'thave control over as present?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klavs View Post
    Now the tricky thing here is to figure out who were those N1c people, coming to the Baltic territories - because the majority of current N1c people don't speak Finno-Ugric languages at all but speak Turkic languages instead.
    (To what Klavs refer as N1c, I'm refering as N1a)


    Whoa, what math are you using to come to that conclusion. Actually, most of the N1a people nowadays speak Finnish or maybe even - Russian!
    As for most N people - it is Chinese language.
    I've calculated, that there are ~100 million N y-dna in China and ~25-30 million of N y-dna in Europe and Russia.

    Most of the Uralic languages in Russia are in heavy decline - hardly any numbers given in wiki represent actual situation - judging by the actual statistical data, everything in wiki has to be divided by 2(!). And that situation has changed dramatically during last 20 years, while Putin was president, because of mass hysteria of Russian nationalism, that fuels Uralic people switch to Russian.

    Yakuts are the only significant population with actual large number of N1a carriers that use Turkic language, but they aren't as numerous as Finnish people! Yakuts are ~600 000 in total.


    Here are some links to educate in this matter:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...ions_of_Europe
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...and_North_Asia

    Where N1a(on map it is named N1c) actually is located
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...plogroup_N.png
    You see - not all Uralic people are N1a!!!



    What you want to read about Baltic N1c is:
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ahg.12130
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231

    I'm not going to argue and explain, but Baltic N1a comes in most cases from Mari(vague term for their ancestors).
    Latvian has 80% Mari N1a and Lithuanian N1a for Mari related ancestry is even higher - 93%!

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    ( ' Quote' from post #211 )

    "Also, there is some wrong idea, that Lithuania was driving force in fighting against Teutonic Order, which is not really true - the ones that fought against Teutonic Order were Prussians, and later Samogitians. Lithuanians quite regularly invaded Samogitia and even gave it as a present to either Teutonic or Livonian Order. Up to 1400 Lithuania had no power over Samogitia, as it was governed by Samogitian Eldership, which was not under Lithuania. Teutonic order did not even reached Lithuanian lands, but ravaged lands of other tribes, which Lithuania later claimed as their own. Wars in ancient times were not fought exclusively by religious reasons, but also economical - pillaging, ransoms, trade arguments, etc. - nothing much has changed in modern times."


    The Teutonic Order certainly reached Lithuania.

    One of these Teutonic Knights who fought in Lithuania was an English man, Anthony de Lucy killed in a battle at Kaunas,1368, ( alongside two others Roger Felbrigg, and John de Multon ) on Holy Crusade. His body was brought back to England, and suprisingly in order to identify him, his body was dug up in 1981, and was found perfectly preserved, so much so,that when they cut into his body during an autopsy it was still pink, and when opening his liver ( I think ) it began to bleed. ( over 600 yrs later !!! ) I'm not sure if his DNA has been tested yet, but check, 'St Bees Man, Sir Anthony de Lucy'. there is a video of the excavation and Autopsy.

    He might even have grounds for Saint Hood, based on the bleeding alone.
    You see, most arguments are over small things really - some are over terminology and other starts, because people are not reading carefully.
    Lithuanian lands =/= Lithuania. I know, this is very confusing, but you see - if I mentioned land of Angles, would you think, that I mean - England, because they took over it? Or place in Danemark/Germany from where they came?

    Ok, what I actually mean by Lithuanian lands is Nalšia, as rest of lands were not really Lithuanian. Nowadays territory of Nalšia is mostly part of Belorussia.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/d1...5aa1bc67c4.jpg
    Actually, the person who tried to locate tribes has made some(LARGE) mistakes, but more or less those territories and borders are ok and also for purpose to locate Nalšia.

    PS It is interesting that English men had French(?) names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    You can give something that you don't have control over as present?
    Ok, I get the question now. I was mixed up, because some of the words were written together, but I fixed them(at least - in my answer).

    Yes.
    At first, you should have asked Pope to grant rights on some lands. It was better, if those lands were owned by nonchristians.
    After that it was up to you if you could take over those lands.
    If I remember correctly, then rights to take over Prussians were granted first to Bohemian king Otokar I, but since Teutonic knights/Sword brothers had to do all the work, they took over - all with the blessing from Pope.
    Terra Marianna initially was very monasteic country - only later it became Germanic Livonia.

    Something similar was how Americas were granted(from Pope) to Spanish and Portugese. So, definitely you can give rights to take over lands or give them as present to someone else, if you can't.


    In modern times - it is de jure recognition of rights of some countries to territories. They are not new terms, really. It is a bit complicated nowadays, but yeah:
    for example, Russia invaded South Ossetia of Georgia and "gave them independence"(in reality it is dependent territory of Russian federation) which no one recognizes. It is still up to Georgia to talk sense into Russia, or take back de jure territory by force...
    Last edited by laint; 27-02-19 at 16:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laint View Post
    Ok, I get the question now. I was mixed up, because some of the words were written together, but I fixed them(at least - in my answer).

    Yes.
    At first, you should have asked Pope to grant rights on some lands. It was better, if those lands were owned by nonchristians.
    After that it was up to you if you could take over those lands.
    If I remember correctly, then rights to take over Prussians were granted first to Bohemian king Otokar I, but since Teutonic knights/Sword brothers had to do all the work, they took over - all with the blessing from Pope.
    Terra Marianna initially was very monasteic country - only later it became Germanic Livonia.

    Something similar was how Americas were granted(from Pope) to Spanish and Portugese. So, definitely you can give rights to take over lands or give them as present to someone else, if you can't.


    In modern times - it is de jure recognition of rights of some countries to territories. They are not new terms, really. It is a bit complicated nowadays, but yeah:
    for example, Russia invaded South Ossetia of Georgia and "gave them independence"(in reality it is dependent territory of Russian federation) which no one recognizes. It is still up to Georgia to talk sense into Russia, or take back de jure territory by force...
    "I give you pope's hat as a present" it only works if I have pope's hat

    You sound very sure about parts of history quite mysterious to historians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    "I give you pope's hat as a present" it only works if I have pope's hat

    You sound very sure about parts of history quite mysterious to historians.
    Yes, I'm sure, that your present would be crime even according to modern criminal laws, as there is no easy way you can get hold on Popes hat legally.

    You see - even today there are rightful heirs to title King of Persia, but that doesn't mean anything, if they can't take over Iran... but who knows - future is not set in stone.


    I'll take it... you are not required to bow before me, I'm sure about that, too :P

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    N1c1

    Country: Czech Republic



    N haplogroup is obviously of Turkic (or even Proto-Iranian) origin, according to Xingnu graves. Wikipedia: In the late 2nd or early 3rd century AD, the Greek physician Galen declared that Sarmatians, Scythians and other northern peoples had reddish hair. They are said to owe their name (Sarmatae) to it.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Well Im positive for Y N1c1a1a2, now N1a1a1a2, with SNP-Z11010, where does this come from ? and I can't find any reference to Z11010.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    Well Im positive for Y N1c1a1a2, now N1a1a1a2, with SNP-Z11010, where does this come from ? and I can't find any reference to Z11010.
    .

    In looking through information regarding Y N1a1a1a2, It seems this has recently changed to Y N3a1, with snp B211.

    A report online, published 7th July 2016, refering to 'Human Y chromosome Haplogroup N', included in discussion,' that N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could of been brought to the fringes of Europe by Seima-Turbina groups, but that earlier migrations cannot be ruled out either, given a study of ancient DNA, revealed a 7,500 year influx from Siberia to North East Europe'. North East Europe would mean or include, the Baltic states region

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