N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

lyakh said:
Case of N1c-M2783+ is interesting. Its closest relatives are found in Sweden and Finland. Why it is SO common, especially among Baltic people and their descendants?

There are quite large amounts of N-L550 in Belarus and Russia (they are Slavic countries, not Baltic)?

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M2783+ is likely a Baltic legacy , just as Z92+. But Balts were probably not genetically homogeneous given vast territories they settled in the past.
 
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teftelis said:
There's also a birch bark letter saying that in 1066 Lithuanians attacked Karelia.

Novgorod treebark tablet #590


Also there was some Lithuanian involvement in Novgorod/Ingria later on in 14th/15th few Lithuanians served as princes/military rulers. Such as Narimantas his son Patrikas and later Lengvenis
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How Litva managed to sneak to Karela so the Novgorodian spy should report this?
огибая Финский залив, литовский военный отряд не­минуемо должен был пройти вблизи центральных, районов Новго­родской земли, создавая непосредственную угрозу этим районам http://www.kirjazh.spb.ru/biblio/piz...bg/pizv_g0.htm
I think «Литва въстала на Корелу» means «Литва вoстала на Корелу» - Litva already was in Karela and made uprising.
It was no Lithuanian kingdom that time and Литва could mean traveling and leading service in the sense A.Dubonis wrote.
 
Lithuanian involvement was mainly with Novgorod it was just that Karelia was contested region and Swedes with Novgorod fought over control of it, Lithuanians supported Swedes.


1183 – 1184 m. žiemą Lietuva staiga surengė pirmą didelį antpuolį į Rusios žemes. Lietuviai nusiaubė ne tik Polocko kunigaikštystę, bet pasiekė net ir Naugardo žemei priklausantį Pskovą, kuriam padarė daug žalos. (Novgorodo pirmasis metraštis)
1188 m. Konflikte tarp Švedijos ir Naugardo karelai buvo Naugardo sąjungininkai. Kovodami prieš juos, lietuviai rėmė švedus.
Lietuvių antpuoliai į Naugardą jau buvo įprastas dalykas. Rudenį polockiečiai ir lietuviai jau kartu puolė Velikije Lukus. (Novgorodo pirmasis metraštis)
1191 m. Polocko ir Naugardo kunigaikščiai planavo pulti Lietuvą, bet savo planų neįvykdė. Naugardiečiai, atrodo, norėjo atkeršyti lietuviams už tai, kad, jiems kariaujant su Švedija, lietuviai užpuolė Naugardo sąjungininkus karelus. Tai rodo, kad Lietuva turėjo politinių interesų tolimuose kraštuose.
1198 m. lietuvių antpuoliai į Naugardą jau buvo įprastas dalykas. Daug ką pasako metraštininko užuomina, kad Naugardo kunigaikščio Jaroslavo sūnus Iziaslavas „buvo pasodintas [Velikije] Lukuose kunigaikščiauti ir ginti Naugardą nuo Lietuvos, ir ten [1198 m. mirė“. Tų pačių metų rudenį polockiečiai ir lietuviai jau kartu puolė Velikije Lukus. Kai žiemą Jaroslavas išžygiavo prieš Polocką, “polockiečiai pasitiko [jį] nusilenkdami” ir sudarė taiką. Matyt, Naugardo žemę jie puolė tik lietuvių verčiami.
 
teftelis said:
lietuviai užpuolė Naugardo sąjungininkus karelus. Tai rodo, kad Lietuva turėjo politinių interesų tolimuose kraštuose.
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Tai Baranausko interpretacijos :)

Karela was nowadays Finland + Karelia before Swedish-Novgorodian treaty and partition 1323.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Novgorodian_Wars#Treaty_of_N.C3.B6teborg_and_its_aftermath
They managed to take and burn down Swedish capital - Sigtuna in the summer 1187.
Erik chronicle says about Karelian foray:
They went on a and calm one that in the storm to Mälaren and they stayed quite secretly in the archipelago of Svea usually with the secret army. Once they got such a notion that they burned Sigtuna, burned it along the bottoms and the town did not get help anywhere. The archbishop Jon was killed there and many heathens were happy from it that the Christians were so unlucky. And the whole of Karelia and Russia were happy about it.


No such military operation heard form Litva that time.
Hundred years later during Mindaugas reign territory was small East Lithuania http://www.sarmatas.lt/wp-content/uploads/mindaugo_lietuva2.jpg.
How Litva could fight powerfull Karela in 11c AD?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/305t8f659rnfrs0/Mindaugo Litva vs Karela po padalinimo 1335.jpg?dl=0
 
>How Litva could fight powerfull Karela in 11c AD?
Up until about 1180~ served as mercenaries/auxiliaries for Polotsk dukes and were under their influence so they might have or not served their interest and you severely underestimating their ability. After 1180~ there were Lithuanian military raids in all directions Livonia/Rus/Poland between 1201-1263 there are recorded 75 raids. Even prior Mindaugas people such as Zvelgaitis raided Estonia and gathered slaves in there, I don't see how they couldn't reach Karelia. Yes the state surely couldn't exist in 11th century, but then again sources about Lithuania in 11th century are really scarce and speculating what really was happening from one sentence from that birch bark is far fetching. The same Hypatian Codex mentions that in 1230 there were Lithuanian merchants in Novgorod and this is all prior the formation of state and Mindaugas coming into power.

And I think in 1187 those were Curonians with Oeslians who burned Sigtuna, not Karelians.
 
Let's place sources together with statements and opinions.
Žvelgaitis raided Estonia in 1205 and it's only half way to Karela.
Karelians paid tribute to Novgorod with bronze Sigtuna cathedral doors not Curonians.
 
"Before 1180 Lithuania was a relatively weak duchy and was not militarily active. In 1183 she assumed the offensive. The entry for 1183 in the first Novgorod Chronicle tells us that: "In that winter the people of Pskov fought with the Lithuanians and suffered great losses." Thus, in the winter of 1183 - 1184 the Lithuanians organized their first independent raid on Ruthenian lands and even passed through the Duchy of Polotsk on the way to Pskov." Tomas Baranauskas. Lietuvos valstybės ištakos. Vilnius: "Vaga", 2000. P. 245-272. http://viduramziu.istorija.net/en/state.htm

So what could mean «Литва въстала на Корелу» 10-20 years before?
 
Interesting mentioning about aftermath of the Novgorod-Polock war from 1021 by Scandinavian mercenary prince Eimund.
Брячислав Изяславич Полоцкий Рюрикович [Рюриковичи Полоцкие] 1003 - 1044, Полоцк, Великое княжество Русское, Князь Полоцкий
А потом изменила часть варягов. Впрочем, у наемников такое поведение не считалось изменой. Ярославу служил скандинавский принц Эймунд с дружиной викингов. Брячислав пообещал заплатить щедрее, и Эймунд перешел к нему. И не просто перешел, а помог завершить войну.
http://id.rodovid.org/wk/Istimewa:ChartInventory/568

Eimund(as), Eimant(as) nowadays still considered as traditional Lithuanian name.
Eimantas (4936), Edmundas (5985), https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sąrašas:Lietuvoje_paplitę_vardai
 
Norvila



Are you trying to suggest there were Lithuanians living in Karelia pointing to the fact that Lithuanians could not bypass Novgorodians who ought to have recorded Lithuanians reaching Karelians in a reference to a birch-bark sentence stating Lithuanians fought Karelians? Not even Balts at large in Karelia, but ancient Lithuanians who lived on the fringe of Slavic and Baltic worlds in the basin of Vilia (Neris) river. Many people will not take your arguments seriously. Ancient Lithuanians were eastern Balts settling in Vilia (Neris) river basin. Their descendants are modern day south-eastern Lithuanians (Dzukai) of Lithuania and north-western Belarus. To some extent north-western Belarusians , whose ancestors were Baltic adopting Slavic language and culture in the last 700-800 years. The home-land of ancient Lithuanians is swampy with little fertile land. Lithuanias had to fight and pirate others - Slavs, Balts, Finns, Germans – whoever they could reach. Vikings fought and pirated others for the same reason. They had to sustain their communities.

Anyway, ancient Lithuanians are associated with eastern Lithuanian barrow archaeological culture. These are the archealogical sites of ancient Lithuanians. Not in Karelia. :)





R1Gkixp4y_4.jpg
 
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I just asking to help elaborate hypothesis explaining facts:
- "massive Lithuanian placenames in N. Russia" (Matveev, Toporov)
- «Литва въстала на Корелу» 1066-1072, despite all raids are named by the leader in other cases.
- massive "Kalevaala" placenames in Karela and roots in Lithuania
- 500+ loanwords from Lithuanian to Finish from the first loan before German, Swedish, Russian (Liukkanen), no known back loanwords
- Saami has some more Lithuanian loanwords than Suomi (Suomi considered as a LT loanword).
- Suomi and Hungarians has only 129 common words
- exact quantity of phonemes in LT and FI, when other FU languages has 0 including Hungarian.

So Lithuanian placenames discovered in huge territory from the West of Berlin (Krahe), Austria, Bavaria (Steinhouser), Dnieper (Toporov), North Russia (Matveev).
Comparing to Mindaugas Kingdom ratio is similar to Spain - Latin America, Portugal - Brazil, UK-Commonwealth.
Meanwhile distribution of Scandinavian placenames outside Scandinavia is much smaller.
 
Kaleva shares roots with Hlefr - Sea beast in Norse mythology.
 
It’s well known that Finnish, Estonian, Saami have large layers of Baltic loan-words. Finnish and Estonian scholars suggest that their ancestors, proto-Baltic-Finnic speakers, had contacts with the Balts as they were migrating toward the Baltic shores from Volga-Oka region.

Saami and other languages having 'Lithuanian' loan-words is a bit far-fetched. Maybe Baltic loan-words , there maybe explanations about ancient contacts. But not Lithuanian.

I know Toporov is an authority on Baltic linguistics. I'd like to see the references of Toporov stating 'there are massive Lithuanian toponyms in northern Russia" .
 
Volat said:
there are massive Lithuanian toponyms in northern Russia" .
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Please check link to prof. Matveev A.K. 1962 publication I gave earlier. Exact quote sounds like "placenames -as, -is are massive in N.Russia and they left by the speakers very similar to Lithuanian".

Suomi and Saami migration routes are very unclear - both started in S.Finland, but there are no migration traces in continent.
 
Norvila said:
Please check link to prof. Matveev A.K. 1962 publication I gave earlier. Exact quote sounds like "placenames -as, -is are massive in N.Russia and they left by the speakers very similar to Lithuanian".

Suomi and Saami migration routes are very unclear - both started in S.Finland, but there are no migration traces in continent.
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I asked for references to Toporov. Matveev is unknown person in linguistics.
 
arvistro said:
Mikko Heikkilä
Kaleva and his Sons from Kalanti –
On the Etymology of Certain Names in Finnic Mythology
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Thank you Arvistro,
Kalevalaa is romantic fairytale from 19c.
Kalevaala is a common placename in Karela and has routes from Kalvis (demin. kalviala).
These facts stated in the foreword of Kalevipoeg by the authors.
I doubt if we need to go further in mythology.

I like Suomi, but they needed to "invent" nation to move away from Swedish ties. The same was in Lithuania vs Poland.
Germans helped in both cases. Some said plan was to have puppet states between Germany, Sweden and Russia.

There is interesting read how Cheushesku "invented" nation by ordering celebrate 2050 anniversary of Dacian state.
“For many the Geto-Dacian „heritage‟ has become equal to the pride of being Romanian. The deliberate exaggerations from the Golden Age [i.e. the Ceauşescu period] and other times have become deeply rooted in the collective memory and have made it so that in the common perception Romanian nationalism is tied tightly with a population whose heritage we „preserve‟, significantly diluted, in our DNA”, i.e. the Dacian myth has become cemented in the identity of contemporary Romanians; a phenomenon which owes more to Nationalist–Communist state propaganda than to archaeological facts, and which is mirrored exactly in Bulgaria.
https://www.academia.edu/27923462/O...and_Pseudoarchaeology_in_Romania_and_Bulgaria

So I prefer to quote scientist from other nations than subject they are writing about.

I think we're kind of community where members trust and help each other. Only with these conditions will happen further discoveries.
 
No, giant Kaleva comes from Sea giant Hlevr (*Kalevaz) not smith Kalvis..

Kalevaz -> Halevaz -> Halevr -> Hlevr (Norse)
Kalevaz -> Kalevas -> Kaleva (Finnic)
 
Norvila said:
Matveev A.K. is well known scientist - Член-корреспондент РАН с 7 декабря 1991 по Секции гуманитарных и общественных наук (языкознание). Профессор УрГУ им. А. М. Горького (Екатеринбург), основатель Уральской ономастической школы.
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In all due respect to this scholar, he could not work out the fact that term Dvina originated 1,000 km from Archangel region stating that Dvina is derived from Lithuanian Dvynai (twins ) because there is а confluence of two rivers that make up northern Dvina.

One does not need to be a linguist to see there is something wrong here. A thorough review of this article by a professional linguist or linguists will be welcomed.

Toporov work https://www.dropbox.com/s/w0x9apwpknkynkl/Toporov Litva.JPG?dl=0
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I don't read Lithuanian. What's Toporov's conclusion? Lithuania in northern Russia is myth or reality? Here's the entire article (in Lithuanian) : http://etalpykla.lituanistikadb.lt/...2626174/datastreams/DS.002.0.01.ARTIC/content
 
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