N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

Here you have a photo from Lieto (a place in southwestern Finland)
http://anninaruottu.fi/lieto/

Here you have a photo from the river Neris (Lietava) next to the town Kernavė
http://regular.neregetalietuva.lt/nuotrauka.en.php?id=9

This Finnish toponym ”Lieto” goes back to the form "leeto" (in the Middle Ages Lethe). It is near the Estonian "leede" (sand bank). In any case, the majority of toponyms in the Lieto area are derived from Estonian words (for example Loukinainen and Moisio).

My etymological dictionary says that the Estonian word ”leede” means ”sand beach” and ”sand bar/bank” and the Google translation is sand bar. This word is found in all Finnic languages with the following meanings: Inkeri ”silt”, Karelian ”sand on the beach, beach, silt”, Lyydi ”sand”, Vepsian ”sand, silt, sand on the beach”, Vatja (dry) sand on the beach, Liivi ”drift sand”.

This root may have a wide distribution in Europe, and, in fact, I noticed that there is also the Italian word ”lido” of unknown origin, as well as the Latin word ”litus”, both meaning coast, beach and riverside. In any case, the meaning in Finnic (Estonian, Finnish) languages fits very well the geography related to toponyms Lietava, Lithuania and Latvia, although you are right that I should perhaps argue that ”Lietava” means only river side and Latvians would then mean “river side gallians”. However, the meaning of a meadow along the river is not very far, and many etymologies usually allow much more far-fetched comparisons.

In any case, the Baltic area and Finnic area (=the area around the Gulf of Finland) form a close cultural unity and their archaelogical history is closely linked, so I think that it is only natural that they would share the same words. Nowadays, we also know that they are genetically close to each other and share this yDNa N1c which is under examination here.

It is funny that usually nobody wants to be associated with an East Asian male N1c but once it is detected in the modern and ancient nobility, Lithuanian N1c becomes a Norse y line and the Rurikid line becomes a Swedish y line, although these lines are rare in these countries and their origin must be Finnic (=south of the Gulf of Finland). By the way, Wikipedia tells us that Rurik’s ”N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns”. I would suggest that Rurik was born somewhere on the Finnish coast, where he got involved with the Varangians and, due to his success, his line spread to Sweden.

The Italian word for beach is not Lido, it is SPIAGGIA

the venetian word for beach is LIDO

according to Paabo, venetic language originates from Finnic
 
Forget that ”gallian” in my proposal if it disturbs you. I took it directly from Wikipedia (Latgalians, sometimes also Ancient Latvians (Latin: Lethi, Letthigalli, Low German: Letti, Lethi, modern Latvian: latgaļi, letgaļi, leti, variant translations also include Latgallians, Lettigalls or Lettigallians) and left it there, because I was not proposing any etymology to it. You did it yourself and I appreciate it.

Moreover, I remind you that first you proposed yourself that Lithuania and Latvia go back to the same word: ”In time from Norse 'leit', East Baltic form 'liet' would appear for Lietuva. From 'let' (Letten, letiņš) used by German overlords 'lat' would be derived for Latvija.”

I do not think that Finland Swedes agree with you and argue that they came from Kvenland (=from the North, even from Lapland), and their original yDNA was the Karelian or Saami N1c or a more autochtonous northern y line that may have disappeared altogether. Neither am I convinced that this Rurikid y line that is found in coastal Swedish speaking Finns is a new migrant y line from Sweden. Usually Finland Swedes are considered autochtonous inhabitants of the Finnish coast. Moreover, I would imagine that it was a big advantage for Rurik in Novgorod area if he was fluent in both Swedish and Finnish.

IE-languages are spoken almost everywhere in Europe and they have been in contact with all languages of Europe, so this means that you can argue that almost all words in Europe are IE words if the criterium is that they are found at least in a few languages. In my opinion, IE-languages are a behemoth or a black hole which is gobbling up everything on its way.
 
Kristina, Kvenland included 2/3 of Sweden + West Finland in some maps, not the far North.
Ukko, thanks, I will read on Birger Jarl more.
I am focused on Uppsala because archeology shows Baltic finds of Viking age to be related to Sweddish area around Uppsala. It could be that L1025 clans lived around there and got decimated or fled to Finland.
Btw those L1025 samples that are not m2782 that I had seen, had Sweddish surnames? Can you check on your sources how many Swe and Fin surnames are there?
Kristina, Ukko, trust me I admire your nation. And always root for Finland in ice hockey (that is after Latvia ofc).
I see Norse culture as blend of Germanic+Finnic. Not as Germanic enemy of Finnic.
And now I started to see L1025 Finnic tribe as one of co-creators of Norse. They lived on Roslagen islands and perhaps spoke some heavily norsified finnic dialects, like paralel with Old Prussian samples from XVIII century that were bland of Germanic/Baltic, their names though were Germanic then.
They were the first to be hit by the infamous Birger, right?
 
Kristina, Kvenland included 2/3 of Sweden + West Finland in some maps, not the far North.
Ukko, thanks, I will read on Birger Jarl more.
I am focused on Uppsala because archeology shows Baltic finds of Viking age to be related to Sweddish area around Uppsala. It could be that L1025 clans lived around there and got decimated or fled to Finland.
Btw those L1025 samples that are not m2782 that I had seen, had Sweddish surnames? Can you check on your sources how many Swe and Fin surnames are there?
Kristina, Ukko, trust me I admire your nation. And always root for Finland in ice hockey (that is after Latvia ofc).
I see Norse culture as blend of Germanic+Finnic. Not as Germanic enemy of Finnic.
And now I started to see L1025 Finnic tribe as one of co-creators of Norse. They lived on Roslagen islands and perhaps spoke some heavily norsified finnic dialects, like paralel with Old Prussian samples from XVIII century that were bland of Germanic/Baltic, their names though were Germanic then.
They were the first to be hit by the infamous Birger, right?


Thanks but this is not some nationalistic issue for me, previously I was sure they where pure Swedes , lately I have started to doubt as the pattern of the migration does not make much sense.
I think I will change my mind many times before this is sorted.

I read a Swedish re-analysis from Svealand archeological finds and the Swedish author suspected a Norse-Finnic hybrid culture so there is talk around this.
Finnish is a very similar to germanic culture, actually the language is the only thing separating us, but the cultural flow from Finnic to Norse would be news.

It is very important to find out when the N1c got in to Svea proper and the Uppsala area, also Gotland, it also has almost 10% N1c.

There really is no good map on Kvenland but the regions in modern Finland where all Finnic in this period, there is no question about it by any expert.
Norse was lingua franca but nothing more, even Åland was in majority Finnish speaking until the end of Viking Age.

Are you talking about the historical surnames or present ones?
If you are talking about historical names then you wont find any Finnis names, they where almost all written down in the Swedish from.
 
The Italian word for beach is not Lido, it is SPIAGGIA

the venetian word for beach is LIDO

according to Paabo, venetic language originates from Finnic
Oh so this is why Venetians built their city on water?
To remind them of the swamps from where they came?
:D
I would remind you another word Italian aqua,Romanian apa and Finnish aapa meaning acording to Kristiina some kind of swamp.
Maybe this word is also Fino-Ugrian influence in Romanian and Italian,who knows.
Romanian apa - Italian acqua - means water.
 
I read Gotland was "cleaned" by Teutones Order, so unless there was later inflow of N, which btw is possible, 10% is what was left uncleaned.
On L1025+ m2782-, I think the guys that I had seen with this particular set up had Sweddish surnames and lived around Uppsala, although I recall few Finnish as well. I will check once more, info should be in relevant topics at molgen forum.
About how N got in Swe I don't know yet, but Liivi in Latvia survived best and for longest on the sea side. Even until early XX century some fisher villages.
History of N in Sweden is a new subject for me and intriguing one. My knowledge on SWE history and filology is low, a lot of reading ahead.
 
Although I know one thing for sure. It is the loss of -az for male names after 500ad in Norse. I don't insist on that yet, but it could be explained by rather large non-native population that started use Norse.
What is also known is general depopulation of Europe after 500 AD. Wiki - extreme weather conditions (forgot the year) + Justinian plague (I hope I had it right). Around 50% of population was lost. So, if Germanic folk had hard times, maybe Finnic folk survived harsh times better and pushed South.
Or even better. It was always there. The Kvenland map that I think you showed on Eupedia matches perfectly borders of two different forest types. Same forest types divided IE (Balts) and FU tribes on Eastern Baltic since bronze age.
Just guessing above.
 
Oh so this is why Venetians built their city on water?
To remind them of the swamps from where they came?
:D
I would remind you another word Italian aqua,Romanian apa and Finnish aapa meaning acording to Kristiina some kind of swamp.
Maybe this word is also Fino-Ugrian influence in Romanian and Italian,who knows.
Romanian apa - Italian acqua - means water.
What about the river name Oka?
 
According to Vékony Gábor Vistula Veneti were Finno-Ugric people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gábor_Vékony
We might never know who they really were, especially if scholars can't even agree on exact location. In future through genetic testing of peoples through history we might be able to put some picture together who was who, and where did they go.
 
Ukko, after extensive reading and search of Sweddish viking historical info in wiki I think I found something. I need to consolidate my findings, but currently fingers I found point to this:
1. There was a Yingling Dynasty in Sweden that came from Eastern Land (Finland). It was proto-historical thing. The last king was Ingjald Illrade according to most historians. But there is another variant - Moreover, both in Icelandic sources and in the Gesta Danorum, king Sigurd Ring would become the ancestor of the houses of Ragnar Lodbrok and would thus be the semi-legendary ancestor of the House of Munsö through Björn Ironside (wiki)
2. House of Munso ruled from 750/800 until 1060, (Rurik got to rule Rus in 862) end of this dynasty marks few things:
a) according to wiki: diplomacy between Varyangian Kingdom of Russia and Sweden Tribes ceased around 1050
b) throne went into hands of dynasty from Vastergotland (Stenkils) who were keen on promotion of Christianity

Those events (throne) apparently also added some propeller to I1 clade popularity in Sweden, since another Geat clan king Birger Jarl was found I1 and I1 hotspot seems to be former Geat lands in Sweden.

As usual some speculations:
- Apparently since Yinglings time who held throne in Uppsala, N1C1 was there, and Munso Dynasty was N1C1. Problem to direct descending from Yinglings is Ragnar Lodbrok as piece in the chain. If that guy was N1C1, I suppose much more N1C1 blood would be around also in Western countries.
- Russian Varrangians knew this and were also N1C1 related clans. Probably Rurik even was from the Munso line directly. Prussian/Lithuanian Neman trade company probably was related clan. Relations ceased between Rus and Swe when Geats assumed throne.
- With rather big certainty one can say they were not Finnish speaking as first language by then. As attested by viking dynasties in their host countries, they assimilated in few generations. Yinglings were in Norse for centuries.

The above should be reassessed and events that led to decline of N1C1 folk in Sweden should be found. As I mentioned somewhere L1025 tribe, for example, had this destiny - M2782+ clan got much life in Balts, the other clan/clans are now limited to very little folk.

Need more investigation. A lot more ancient dna. But things start to make sense.
 
Arvisto, I am not at all so well acquainted with history, but, of course, I have nothing against your above findings. In any case, I think that there are still many many new things to learn about history and I hope that the genetic testing will greatly help us.
 
Thanks, Kristina. Let's hope some day they dig up a guy from early mythical yinglings, burial places are known. For example, king Agne. And do some y-dna testing.

Ukko, can you provide source of Finnic-Norse hybrid archeological finds you mentioned? Was it by any chance before 500 AD and included Uppsala?

Also I need someone to explain this pattern:
Birka (Sweden): originated mid 8th - silenced 960
Old Ladoga (Russia): founded 753 - until 950 one of the most important trade centers (wiki)
Truso (Prussia): founded end 8th - stopped 2nd half of 10th century
Kaup (Prussia): founded early 9th - flourished until end of 10th century
Alands (Finland): academics dispute over possible depopulation late 10th century.
Daugmale (Latvia): until mid 10th century it was Semigallian port, after that mixed Liivi, Lettigallians, etc.

I could not find a source from sagas or elsewhere explaining such local Armageddon of second half 10th century. Apparently something happened. But trade did not dissappear, Sigtuna replaced Birka.
______
In Latvia 10th century some new places were founded Jersika and Koknese, allegedly ruled by Polotsk Rurikid vassals. Polotsk was ruled then by Ragvolod (ruled 945-978). Reading on. Latvian version of wiki states - Ragvolod's grandsons from daughter line traced their line to maternal (Ragvolod) not paternal (Rurik) and explains this by Ragvolod belonging to Ynglings unlike Rurikids. But this is not in Russian or English versions, I wonder who wrote it and based on what :)

According to the Knytlingasaga and Fagrskinna, Jomsborg was built by the Danish king Harold Bluetooth (910-985/86) in the 960s.[2][10] The Jomsvikinga Sagamentions Danish Viking Palnatoki as its founder.
 
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Thanks, Kristina. Let's hope some day they dig up a guy from early mythical yinglings, burial places are known. For example, king Agne. And do some y-dna testing.

Ukko, can you provide source of Finnic-Norse hybrid archeological finds you mentioned? Was it by any chance before 500 AD and included Uppsala?

Also I need someone to explain this pattern:
Birka (Sweden): originated mid 8th - silenced 960
Old Ladoga (Russia): founded 753 - until 950 one of the most important trade centers (wiki)
Truso (Prussia): founded end 8th - stopped 2nd half of 10th century
Kaup (Prussia): founded early 9th - flourished until end of 10th century
Alands (Finland): academics dispute over possible depopulation late 10th century.

I could not find a source from sagas or elsewhere explaining such local Armageddon of second half 10th century. Apparently something happened. But trade did not dissappear, Sigtuna replaced Birka.

I will try to find it but I think it was later, Viking Age Birka finds having Finnic influence, speculation on the extent of the contacts.

This is something I would like to read, please link if you can find it.

Redating and contextualizing the mounds of Uppsala and other monumental mounds 2008

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2:40157


Another interesting paper from Birka.

Eastern archery in Birkas Garrison

http://www.academia.edu/1429936/Eastern_archery_in_Birka_s_Garrison
 
Guys, shame on me!!!! I was so obssessed looking for Scandinavs in Prussia/Lithuania that totally forgot and ignored our own Latvian site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grobiņa (or look Grobina online)

Please read following quotes from wiki:
During the Early Middle Ages, Grobiņa (or Grobin) was the most important political centre on the territory of Latvia. There was a centre of Scandinavian settlement on the Baltic Sea, comparable in many ways to Hedeby and Birka but probably predating them both. About 3,000 surviving burial mounds contain the most impressive remains of the Vendel Age in Northern Europe.

OR
Nerman found remains of an earthwork stronghold, which had been protected on three sides by the Ālande River. Three Vendel Agecemeteries may be dated to the period between 650 and 800 AD.

Further in text he states Gotland influence, but I need to check if Gotland culture differed from Alands (Ālande River?). I think I know or soon will know the full story. Much disputed depopulation of Alands c.a. 950 must be checked.
 
In Gimbutas "Balts" she notes that Baltic finds were frequently found in Gotland, Alands and Central Sweden (Uppsala). Another thing is that Curonians (Baltic tribe that lived around Grobina) started to play the leading role in Baltic tribal affairs throughout viking ages. This is confirmed also with Kovalov's finds on Neman trade route where frequently among clearly Scandinavian finds he also notices Curonian ones. When I first read it (couple of post up you can read my first note on this) I thought hmm..

I am running ahead horses as usual. That is me. But this is the last updated scenario:
1. Tribe L1025+ lives on Aland islands
2. Clan M2782+ moves to Grobina (Curland) ~600-800 AD
....
3. After 750 AD. Same folk gets involved in Neman trade route, Truso and also Kaup in later centuries. Not only this folk, other varyags and locals too, but I believe initial managers were those guys. Either local Grobina's folk or new arrivals from Alands/Uppsala.
...
4. After 950 AD. Danish King Bluetooth and Norwegian king Hakon raided Baltics and "changed operators" of Baltic Sea trade. Truso stopped 950, Birka stopped 950, Daugmale went from Semigallian hands into Livonian/Latgalian mix, end of 10th century, On Daugava Polotsk rulers built two more forts Koknese and Jersika on 10th century, Old Ladoga lost importance end of 10th century. Archeological finds stop at Aland islands after 950.

note:
on 1 - is my assumption based on Ālande (Spelled like Aalande) river in Grobiņa, and Aland, Gotland, Uppland triangle for Baltic finds.
on 2 - is my assumption based on 'M2782+' popularity in Baltics, 'M2782-' clan/clans stayed in Alands
on 3 - other varyag folk of course also was present, just like local Balts, West Slavs, East Slavs, etc. But I believe main role was M2782+.
on 4 - this is the wildest assumption. Can't find on sagas about Birka's decline. But I found in some sources about Danish/Norwegian friendship and their common raids in Baltics ca 970. Also archeology shows all my mentioned declines/changes at the same period. Sagas on Uppsala kings from 900-1000 are silent. The ones that I found. Some king names are mentioned, but without much extra info. As if nothing really happened. On other hand I might be wrong, if those declines were related to Danes or Norges, then their sagas would feature those events with much pride :) So, maybe, nothing really happened?
 
In Gimbutas "Balts" she notes that Baltic finds were frequently found in Gotland, Alands and Central Sweden (Uppsala). Another thing is that Curonians (Baltic tribe that lived around Grobina) started to play the leading role in Baltic tribal affairs throughout viking ages. This is confirmed also with Kovalov's finds on Neman trade route where frequently among clearly Scandinavian finds he also notices Curonian ones. When I first read it (couple of post up you can read my first note on this) I thought hmm..

I am running ahead horses as usual. That is me. But this is the last updated scenario:
1. Tribe L1025+ lives on Aland islands
2. Clan M2782+ moves to Grobina (Curland) ~600-800 AD
....
3. After 750 AD. Same folk gets involved in Neman trade route, Truso and also Kaup in later centuries. Not only this folk, other varyags and locals too, but I believe initial managers were those guys. Either local Grobina's folk or new arrivals from Alands/Uppsala.
...
4. After 950 AD. Danish King Bluetooth and Norwegian king Hakon raided Baltics and "changed operators" of Baltic Sea trade. Truso stopped 950, Birka stopped 950, Daugmale went from Semigallian hands into Livonian/Latgalian mix, end of 10th century, On Daugava Polotsk rulers built two more forts Koknese and Jersika on 10th century, Old Ladoga lost importance end of 10th century. Archeological finds stop at Aland islands after 950.

note:
on 1 - is my assumption based on Ālande (Spelled like Aalande) river in Grobiņa, and Aland, Gotland, Uppland triangle for Baltic finds.
on 2 - is my assumption based on 'M2782+' popularity in Baltics, 'M2782-' clan/clans stayed in Alands
on 3 - other varyag folk of course also was present, just like local Balts, West Slavs, East Slavs, etc. But I believe main role was M2782+.
on 4 - this is the wildest assumption. Can't find on sagas about Birka's decline. But I found in some sources about Danish/Norwegian friendship and their common raids in Baltics ca 970. Also archeology shows all my mentioned declines/changes at the same period. Sagas on Uppsala kings from 900-1000 are silent. The ones that I found. Some king names are mentioned, but without much extra info. As if nothing really happened. On other hand I might be wrong, if those declines were related to Danes or Norges, then their sagas would feature those events with much pride :) So, maybe, nothing really happened?


What where the Baltic Finns doing at this time?
 
I copy link of this here. Since it may be relevant to whole issue. It is about climate catastrophy of 536/537 and its consequences. ca 50% population loss in Estonia, Latvia, South Sweden, Norway, North Germany (everywhere where land cultivation was major source of food); but almost no loss in Finland. End of old trade networks, beginning of new trade networks operated by Finns without middlemen in Estonia or Scandinavia.
http://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeology/2014/issue_1/arch-2014-1-30-56.pdf
 
This not to be taken extremely serious, but nevertheless interesting.

Reading Simmon Grunnaw's chronicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Grunau

Obviously this chronicle is full of legends.

So, in general his story is this:
1. Some folk was replaced from Britania to Scandinavia by Drusus (apparently some Roman guy)
2. Apparently some of that folk in turn had to withdraw from Scandinavia to Cymbria (which later in text is defined as modern Gothland)
3. Early 6th Century Goths lost to Justinian and had to withdraw from Ravenna. They asked for place to live and Danish king let them live in Cymbria, since folk that lived there would not pay taxes to Danish king.
4. Goths went to Cymbria and renamed it into Gothland later, but Cymbrians (former Gothland folk) had a choice to obey Goths or leave
5. Cymbrians (46,000 folk) went to Ulmiganea (Prussia), build castles and became their overlords
6. Bruten and Widewut were two Cymbrian brothers who became kings in Prussia, Widewut of course had 12 sons who were named in 12 Prussian tribal names :) and ruled 12 tribes, including Lithuania
7. Interesting that they mention, when first nobles of joint nation was of Cymbrian origin their name would end on -o (neuter?), but when first locals would get to nobility -s (Baltic origin).
8. He mentions use of (pagan) religion to unite and make local folk obey Widewut/Bruten.

I have no idea if Gothland was ever called Cymbria or if Cymbrians have anything to do with Prussians or Goths whatsoever. Also if Goths had anything to do with Gothland. Obviously king having 12 children and hence 12 tribal names is also a legend.
But known thing is Grobiņa (large scale Scandinavian colony in Curland, Seeborg), where "About 3,000 surviving burial mounds contain the most impressive remains of the Vendel Age in Northern Europe.".
"Three Vendel Age cemeteries may be dated to the period between 650 and 800 AD. One of them was military in character and analogous to similar cemeteries in the Mälaren Valley in Central Sweden, while two others indicate that there was "a community of Gotlanders who were carrying on peaceful pursuits behind the shield of the Swedish military"."


So my interpretation of Simon Grunau work is that probably there was some folk memory on large scale (incl ruling class) immigration from Gothland that was known to Grunau. Even centuries seem to match (after 500 in Grunau vs Vendel age cemetery dated 650).

Some other wiki quote on Simon Grunau:
For example, he took a description of Prussian holy place Romove (Romuva temple) from Peter von Dusburg and improved it by adding an eternally green oak, decorated with portraits of three idols and guarded by vestal virgins. Scholars agree that this addition was most probably borrowed from Adam of Bremen and his description of the Temple at Uppsala.[4]
Or alternatively - it was there because the Temple of Uppsala influenced Romove.
 

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