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Thread: N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    N1C in South Baltic - Caused by Varyag elite of Baltic Tribes?

    There is this mystery as to why Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians, also former Prussian lands) have so much N1C in them. N1C ~ R1A in our lands. R1A is the hg of initial bearers of our IE language, that is believed to be quite archaic and conserved IE.
    What I have found recently googling up and reading through several English and Russian forums and sites is that Latvian/Lithuanian/Belarus/Prussian/NE Polish N1C is of different subclade than the version most popular in Finland & Estonia. I've read quite a lot of theories coming up, i.e. Balts and Baltic languages being created by mixed R1A/N1C people. All this would make sense if there was continuity with Estonia. But they (Estonians) appear to have two types of N, the Baltic one mixed with the Finnic one.

    This is how it looks in Tree:

    • N1c1a1a1 (CTS2929/VL29): found in Russia (incl. Volga-Ural), the Baltic, Sweden and Hungary
      • N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic countries, and in places settled by the Vikings. Varyag Rurikids of Russia was under this L550, but not further down the tree.
        • N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia
          • N1c1a1a1a1a (L149.2, L551)- Lithuanian Great Prince Gediminas Clan (includes Polish, Hungarian, Bohemian temporar rulers Jagellons, Russian/Belorussian/Ukrainian Princes of former Great Lithuanian Duchy territories)
          • N1c1a1a1a1b (L591) -
          • N1c1a1a1a1c (L1027) - Lithuanian Prince Giedrus Clan


      • N1c1a1a1b (L1022): found throughout north-east Europe, especially in Finland

    • N1c1a1a2 (Z1936)
      • N1c1a1a2a (Z1925, Z1935): found in Finland, Lapland, Scandinavia, the Volga-Ural and the Altai



    So, question is - could it be that at some point in history L550 or L1025 got into Baltic tribes aristocracy? Could be through Prussia originally. Took it over and spread their seed all over the places of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine) and Baltic tribes (Prussia, Latvia), and then through Jagellons in Poland. Having some offsprings as far as Slovakia, Hungary, etc where Jagellons temporarily ruled.

    Please read carefully above. It comes from compilation of many sources which might not be 100% correct. So if you have information that contradicts above please share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    There is this mystery as to why Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians, also former Prussian lands) have so much N1C in them. N1C ~ R1A in our lands. R1A is the hg of initial bearers of our IE language, that is believed to be quite archaic and conserved IE.
    What I have found recently googling up and reading through several English and Russian forums and sites is that Latvian/Lithuanian/Belarus/Prussian/NE Polish N1C is of different subclade than the version most popular in Finland & Estonia. I've read quite a lot of theories coming up, i.e. Balts and Baltic languages being created by mixed R1A/N1C people. All this would make sense if there was continuity with Estonia. But they (Estonians) appear to have two types of N, the Baltic one mixed with the Finnic one.

    This is how it looks in Tree:

    • N1c1a1a1 (CTS2929/VL29): found in Russia (incl. Volga-Ural), the Baltic, Sweden and Hungary
      • N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic countries, and in places settled by the Vikings. Varyag Rurikids of Russia was under this L550, but not further down the tree.
        • N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia
          • N1c1a1a1a1a (L149.2, L551)- Lithuanian Great Prince Gediminas Clan (includes Polish, Hungarian, Bohemian temporar rulers Jagellons, Russian/Belorussian/Ukrainian Princes of former Great Lithuanian Duchy territories)
          • N1c1a1a1a1b (L591) -
          • N1c1a1a1a1c (L1027) - Lithuanian Prince Giedrus Clan


      • N1c1a1a1b (L1022): found throughout north-east Europe, especially in Finland

    • N1c1a1a2 (Z1936)
      • N1c1a1a2a (Z1925, Z1935): found in Finland, Lapland, Scandinavia, the Volga-Ural and the Altai



    So, question is - could it be that at some point in history L550 or L1025 got into Baltic tribes aristocracy? Could be through Prussia originally. Took it over and spread their seed all over the places of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine) and Baltic tribes (Prussia, Latvia), and then through Jagellons in Poland. Having some offsprings as far as Slovakia, Hungary, etc where Jagellons temporarily ruled.

    Please read carefully above. It comes from compilation of many sources which might not be 100% correct. So if you have information that contradicts above please share.
    As Estonia is the arrival place of the Finnic in the Baltic it all makes sense, you should be looking to an Finnic elite as a possibility, also in Sweden.

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    Yes, this is what my theory is about.
    --There were N1C hg Sweddish varyag kings (Rurik's clan, and some other clans) who came to Baltics and established their dynasty. It was not Rurik's clan in Baltics, Gediminas had differend hg. Most Balt N people would be grand...sons of these varyags. They came in small groups and probably already spoke not that distant language to West Baltic (early AD Sweddish). I believe they settled in Prussia originally, there are historical sources of Varyag trade post and settlement in Prussia. Prussians have legends of brothers Bruten and Widewut coming to Prussia and establishing statehood, could this be related? At times of Gediminas elite was already assimilated to the degree that did not want to give up Baltic language and religion easily even when pressed hard by Christians from two sides.
    N1 Estonians (and to some degree N1 Latvians through Liivi) would then be somewhat mixed between N1C which was there originally and this varyag N1C imported over Baltic Sea and promoted through Balts elite. Lithuanian (and Belarussian, and of course Prussian) N1 would be varyag.

    Alternative point of view that is current formal history is that Balts went more North, met N1C people and assimilated locals. But I argue Balt N1C is imported over Baltic Sea from Sweden.

    Another alternative version is that one original local N1C clan got into one R1A Baltic tribe and raised to power. Which is similar to my idea. Only question is whether this clan was local "the Southern most" clan of Finnic group that arrived with Estonians/Liivi or imported "the Western most" clan of Finnic group that arrived with Sweddish varyags. This particular version of N1c was found more on Sweden, Finland than Estonia and was related to varyags (Rurik). There can be two theories - a) it got into varyags from Baltics or b) it got into Baltics from varyags :)

    This of course is an amateur speculation in hopes that some more experienced members of forum come and give their opinion, try to challenge this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Yes, this is what my theory is about.
    --There were N1C hg Sweddish varyag kings (Rurik's clan, and some other clans) who came to Baltics and established their dynasty. It was not Rurik's clan in Baltics, Gediminas had differend hg. Most Balt N people would be grand...sons of these varyags. They came in small groups and probably already spoke not that distant language to West Baltic (early AD Sweddish). I believe they settled in Prussia originally, there are historical sources of Varyag trade post and settlement in Prussia. Prussians have legends of brothers Bruten and Widewut coming to Prussia and establishing statehood, could this be related? At times of Gediminas elite was already assimilated to the degree that did not want to give up Baltic language and religion easily even when pressed hard by Christians from two sides.
    N1 Estonians (and to some degree N1 Latvians through Liivi) would then be somewhat mixed between N1C which was there originally and this varyag N1C imported over Baltic Sea and promoted through Balts elite. Lithuanian (and Belarussian, and of course Prussian) N1 would be varyag.

    Alternative point of view that is current formal history is that Balts went more North, met N1C people and assimilated locals. But I argue Balt N1C is imported over Baltic Sea from Sweden.

    Another alternative version is that one original local N1C clan got into one R1A Baltic tribe and raised to power. Which is similar to my idea. Only question is whether this clan was local "the Southern most" clan of Finnic group that arrived with Estonians/Liivi or imported "the Western most" clan of Finnic group that arrived with Sweddish varyags. This particular version of N1c was found more on Sweden, Finland than Estonia and was related to varyags (Rurik). There can be two theories - a) it got into varyags from Baltics or b) it got into Baltics from varyags :)

    This of course is an amateur speculation in hopes that some more experienced members of forum come and give their opinion, try to challenge this.
    VL29 is most likely Finnic in origin, originating around Gulf of Finland, the rest come from it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Since I created the thread I had thought of the subject. At some points I started to doubt this, but then I put my attention towards East Prussian dna.
    1) I found a man with L1025 surname Reihs in the project from East Prussia, but negative for down clades
    and I found in https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/ "They shared a common male ancestor ab. 2200 years back." It was told about Gediminas and Rurik.

    2) Gediminas is down the line from L1025, means if L1025 and L1025- had common ancestor "A" 2200 years ago, then further Baltic subclades L551, L591, L1027 had common ancestor "B" already Anno Domini. Majority of N1C1 Balts then would be grand----children of a man who lived less than 2000 years ago.

    3) Just assumption, but I hope it is fair. Common ancestor "A" (clan Ruriks + clan Gediminids) was unlikely from Baltic tribe. Most likely he fished salmons on the shores of Finland/ North Sweden.

    4) If 3 is correct, then Baltic, proto-Baltic or proto-Balto-Slavic bearers did not have a significant amount of N1C1 before AD. OR let's say there is no reason to believe otherwise. I know there was some heated discussion on this on other site.

    5) Assumption, which I am not that sure. N1C1 in South Baltic most likely appeared after 500 AD (which is not that far after common ancestor "B"). It did not just "appear", it became ruling class. Why after 500 AD? First, there is a Prussian legend of Bruten and Widevut who established Prussian statehood around 600. Second, according to Gimbutas Balts if my memory serves me right starting after 500 AD archeological findings show that peacefull life near Baltics ended, broken arrows findings, more military equipment, etc. Third, Truso was established at the end of 8th century.

    6) I do not know the exact source. I believe it came from modern Sweden territory. Either with late East German tribes (less likely) or early vikings (most likely) migration.

    In conclusion, I hope we get some Baltic dna samples from AD 0. If I am right, there is almost exclousively R1a-z280. With some other hgs in small proportions. Elite graves after 900 AD at some point would show mostly N1C1 then, and common men mostly z280.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Since I created the thread I had thought of the subject. At some points I started to doubt this, but then I put my attention towards East Prussian dna.
    1) I found a man with L1025 surname Reihs in the project from East Prussia, but negative for down clades
    and I found in "They shared a common male ancestor ab. 2200 years back." It was told about Gediminas and Rurik.

    2) Gediminas is down the line from L1025, means if L1025 and L1025- had common ancestor "A" 2200 years ago, then further Baltic subclades L551, L591, L1027 had common ancestor "B" already Anno Domini. Majority of N1C1 Balts then would be grand----children of a man who lived less than 2000 years ago.

    3) Just assumption, but I hope it is fair. Common ancestor "A" (clan Ruriks + clan Gediminids) was unlikely from Baltic tribe. Most likely he fished salmons on the shores of Finland/ North Sweden.

    4) If 3 is correct, then Baltic, proto-Baltic or proto-Balto-Slavic bearers did not have a significant amount of N1C1 before AD. OR let's say there is no reason to believe otherwise. I know there was some heated discussion on this on other site.

    5) Assumption, which I am not that sure. N1C1 in South Baltic most likely appeared after 500 AD (which is not that far after common ancestor "B"). It did not just "appear", it became ruling class. Why after 500 AD? First, there is a Prussian legend of Bruten and Widevut who established Prussian statehood around 600. Second, according to Gimbutas Balts if my memory serves me right starting after 500 AD archeological findings show that peacefull life near Baltics ended, broken arrows findings, more military equipment, etc. Third, Truso was established at the end of 8th century.

    6) I do not know the exact source. I believe it came from modern Sweden territory. Either with late East German tribes (less likely) or early vikings (most likely) migration.

    In conclusion, I hope we get some Baltic dna samples from AD 0. If I am right, there is almost exclousively R1a-z280. With some other hgs in small proportions. Elite graves after 900 AD at some point would show mostly N1C1 then, and common men mostly z280.
    They where Aesti-Gothic males from Finland and Estonia, happy to help out.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Aesti are believed to be Balts. I expect R1A as big majority there.

    Goths are East Germans. They could actually pick up some N1C1 in Scandinavia, if they ever went or originated there. Ermanareiks (that is name of Ermanaric as pronounced in Gothic.. and Baltic) conquested Aesti at around end of 4th Century. So if Goths replaced local nobility, then they could have put this N1C1 guy from Scandinavia on throne.

    ----Interesting piece of info is that after Ermanaric they elected Vithimiris (from South Ukraine) as new Gothic king. Vythimiris sounds Balto-Slavic. 'Vyti' is very Lithuanian (Vytautas, Vytenis), 'mir' is root associated with Slavic rulers, '-is' is again Baltic ending. His son Viderichus (Videreiks?) also would be good candidate for Balto-Gothic ruler but his advisors Alatheus and Saphrax seem from different ethnicity------

    Wait, actually I think I found the answer. In wiki:
    "According to Tacitus, Aestui, the land of the Aesti, was located somewhere east of the Suiones (Swedes) and west of the Sitones (possibly the Kvens), on the Suebian (Baltic) Sea."
    Maybe Sitones (Kvens) is the original tribe that unites Rurik and Gediminas. 200 BC there was a man in Kvenland, his clan came to rule Kvens on both sides of Baltic. On the West side (L1025-) they came to live around Roslagen, became Sweddish varyags and got to rule Rus. On the East side (L1025+ was born there) they entered Baltic nobility. This is where Sitones are thought to be placed:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Empire_125.png

    So, couple of theories:
    1) Local - Balts assimilated East Baltic Sitones, cousines of Kvens somewhere after 200 BC. Maybe there was some quazi war which ended with remains of Sitoni tribe fleeing accross Baltic.
    2) Gothic/Cimbru - N1C1 ruler arrived to Baltic lands via East Germanic tribes and got there initially as one of warlords picked up in Scandinavia. Either Gothic conquest of Aesti or Cimbru Prussian legend.
    3) Early Varyags - N1C1 ruler(s) arrived to Baltic lands with early viking raids, somewhere at time of Truso establishment. Truso - Prussians? Prussian ethnonime only appeared after Truso. Then there is Jatvingr theory for Jatvings/Sudovians.

    Local seems to be the most easy answer. Only problem is geography. Rurik from Roslagen Sweden L550, L1025- is better match to Baltic nobility L550, L1025+, than Estonian/West Finnish clades of L1022 which is negative for L550.
    Also lack of East Asian admixture around Baltic areal (link below, Latvia, Lithuania and to lower extent Belarus, Poland). Would mean that it was only male thing and small group of males, that got Baltified quickly. Somewhat similar to R1B in Basques.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...tml#East_Asian

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    Quite funny thing. If the common ancestor (the one who created Baltic N and lived AD) instead was I or R1A or R1B. We would spoke of absolute R1A-ness of Balts (80-90% of R1a) or Balts being descendants of original hunters I people (40% of I) or Balts being mix of R1B and R1A (50% of R1B)..

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    I noticed that this thread comes up in google when searching for Balts and Varyags :)
    Therefore I feel a little bit more responsibility and should confess that I am neither a professional historian, nor genetics professional. Just a curious soul, so this should not be taken too seriously.

    As to other new info and feedback, that I gathered recently.

    1. Dating of L550+ age differs.
    Rurikid project public info page says:
    Says: "Gedimin(as), the Grand Duke of Lithuania, and Rurik were very distant cousins. They shared a common male ancestor ab. 2200 years back." (Bolded part mine)
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/

    Tomenable passed me quote from molgen forum with following estimates by forum user mouglley, dated 25.01.2013:
    In short:
    "N1c-VL29 - common ancestor 3700-4300 years ago, Volga region
    N1c-L550 - common ancestor 3300-4000 years ago, east of Pskov
    N1c-L1025 - common ancestor 2500-3000 years ago, pre-Baltic (south of the Baltic Sea)"
    (Bolded part mine, also you will see later L1025 is actually West Finnic).
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=844&start=40

    I found discussion from molgen forum, very last post to sum up work in progress nature of age estimates was from michal, dated 10.08.2014:
    "It would be much more appropriate to estimate the age of this subclade by calculating an average number of reliable (i.e. YFull-verified) private SNPs under Y4338, but we can also produce a very rough estimate by deducting 1500 years (10x150) from the hypothetical age of L550 (i.e. from 2400, as suggested above based on the results for L1025). This would give us about 900 years (within a reasonable margin of error) to the most recent common ancestor of those "Para-Rurikids", as you call them (which seems much younger than expected based on the historical records for the Rurikids). Since this very provisional result also suggests an average number of only 6 private (reliable!) BigY-tested SNPs for the members of this characteristic subclade of L550, we can significantly refine our rough estimate by providing an exact average number of private SNPs under Y4338 (using as many Y4338 members as possible). If this average turns out to be significantly higher (I would expect something in the range of 8-12 SNPs, or 1200-1800 years), this would also mean that L550 might be a bit older than 2400 years (although verifying this would require including a significant number of Big Y results for L550* and L1025)."

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    Eh, needs mod approval for post to appear. That topic was about differences in age estimates for L550+, which if significantly older than 400 BC would make this Varyag theory wrong.

    In the meantime moving on. New updated tree for N, by Georg Dunkel.
    imag.jpg
    One can see that Balts are now under here:
    L550+, L1025-: Rurikids ("grandpa")
    L550+, L1025+, M2783-: FennoScandian ("dad")
    L550+, L1025+, M2783+: all South Baltic clades are below this. M2783 ("son") is responsible for South Baltic N1C1.

    Now a lot depends on age estimates for L550, L1025 and M2783. Or hopefully results for early AD ancient y-dna from Baltics or Belarus will appear in this century to shed some light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Eh, needs mod approval for post to appear.
    Approved. Sorry, the system is finicky sometimes.

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    Latvija and Lietuva - Possible Norse Etimology

    Apart from looking for N1C1 origins in Balts I was also spending some time and put some thinking into ethnonime for Latvians and Lithuanians. Searching and looking for ancient tribes with let/lit/liet/lat in ancient sources brought no results.
    I read formal etimology explanations in for Latvia: from 'latvis'. 'latvis' from perhaps from Proto-Baltic *lat-, from Proto-Indo-European *lat-, *let-, *lot- (“to flow”), reflected in Ancient Greek λάταξ (látaks, “drop”), Old Irish laith (“liquid; swamp”) (< *lati), lathach (“silt, mud”) (< *latàkā), Old Norse leþja (“clay; dregs, sludge”), Old High German letto (“clay”).
    I was not impressed.
    I read formal etimology for Lithuania: from 'leitis'. 'leitis' from Proto-Baltic *lei-, *lie- with an extra -t, from Proto-Indo-European *ley-, *lī- (“to pour, to flow, to drip”). The stem was perhaps originally a reference to people from the "land of the rain" or "land of the rivers." It is also possible that there was an original river or lake name *Leitā, from which *leitā-tyā, *leityā > leiša, from which the nominative leitis could be derived.
    I was also not impressed.

    First, I believed Lithuanian and Latvian (Lettigallian) came from same root. Earliest sources use 'Let' or similar forms for Lithuania and Lettigallians (tribe which made most of Latvia, which is basically just Let + 'gale', "end of lets"). There was similar root/meaning mentioned for both - 'to pour' - liet, līt, and some rivers as possible source - one for Latvians, another for Lithuanians. Both unknown.

    There was another more exotic idea that Lietuva comes from 'leičiai'. I read on those guys, thought there was something to it.

    Yesterday I had an heureka moment. I should have checked it once I came up with this Varyag-Baltic idea. Maybe Let, Liet forms were present in Old Norse? I grabbed my smartphone and opened Sweddish - English dictionary. Couple of checks and 'leta' - (with efter) search; look throughout (a place) for something. I noticed on wictionary similar Icelandic form 'leita'. Old Norse 'leita' - to seek, to search.

    let's get back to leičiai:
    Leičiai (singular: leitis) were a distinct social group of the Lithuanian society in the early Grand Duchy of Lithuania subordinate to the Lithuanian ruler or the state itself. Leičiai were native to the Lietuva Land and formed the core of the Lithuanian society in pre-state era and during the establishment of the state. Leičiai were the majority of military-economic staff of the state: they enforced state authority in periphery, protected state borders, and performed various other war-related functions, such as breeding riding horses.
    According the hypothesis brought forward by Lithuanian historian Artūras Dubonis and linguist Simas Karaliūnas, the name of Lithuania (Lietuva) derived from leičiai. Leičiai is an old ethnonymic used by Latvians to denote the Lithuanians (leiši in Latvian) and was historically known to the Germans in the same sense.[3] Opponents to the hypothesis which attempts to relate the words leitis, leičiai and Lietuva, claim that the form leičiai, leitis, with a diphthong -ei- instead of -ie-, is likely to be of Western Baltic origin.

    So, how about leičiai originated as Norse folk hired by early varyag era Lithuanian dukes to look after (leita) state borders? Etimology and original meaning would be that of 'Watchmen'/'Scouts', searching, looking for enemy. Since those watchmen (leičiai) would be the first folk neighbor populations meet, in time they would start calling whole nation leičiai. Latvian tribe Lettigalians would get this ethnonime since were also in Lithuanian sphere of influence, probably had their own leičiai before Livonian Order or Rus Princes influence.

    In time from Norse 'leit', East Baltic form 'liet' would appear for Lietuva. From 'let' (Letten, letiņš) used by German overlords 'lat' would be derived for Latvija.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post

    So, how about leičiai originated as Norse folk hired by early varyag era Lithuanian dukes to look after (leita) state borders? Etimology and original meaning would be that of 'Watchmen'/'Scouts', searching, looking for enemy. Since those watchmen (leičiai) would be the first folk neighbor populations meet, in time they would start calling whole nation leičiai. Latvian tribe Lettigalians would get this ethnonime since were also in Lithuanian sphere of influence, probably had their own leičiai before Livonian Order or Rus Princes influence.

    In time from Norse 'leit', East Baltic form 'liet' would appear for Lietuva. From 'let' (Letten, letiņš) used by German overlords 'lat' would be derived for Latvija.

    What are the Norse Y-DNA haplos found in Latvia and Lithuania?

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    I am thinking that N1c1 m2783+ could be of Norse clan in Balts.
    Its dad clade L1025+ m2783- is found in FennoScandia. Its Grand dad clade is Ruriks clan with his non-Russian relatives around same place.
    Probably Norsified earlier Kven folk, like Rurik.

    I might be terribly wrong if age of m2783 is really old.
    L1025+ m2783- and its father clade L550+ L1025- are located in North Sweden/West Finland.

    M2783+ is common ancestor of n1c1 in Balts. Located SouthEast Baltic.

    Either those were Varyag colonists in Viking times (Truso, Kaup, maybe the bloody event mentioned by Saxo Gramaticus) OR some very early migrations of Finno Ugric tribes, at times they colonized Baltic and North Sweden. If m2783+ was born anno domini, then it could only be brought from North Sweden to Baltics via sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I am thinking that N1c1 m2783+ could be of Norse clan in Balts.
    Its dad clade L1025+ m2783- is found in FennoScandia. Its Grand dad clade is Ruriks clan with his non-Russian relatives around same place.
    Probably Norsified earlier Kven folk, like Rurik.

    I might be terribly wrong if age of m2783 is really old.
    L1025+ m2783- and its father clade L550+ L1025- are located in North Sweden/West Finland.

    M2783+ is common ancestor of n1c1 in Balts. Located SouthEast Baltic.

    Either those were Varyag colonists in Viking times (Truso, Kaup, maybe the bloody event mentioned by Saxo Gramaticus) OR some very early migrations of Finno Ugric tribes, at times they colonized Baltic and North Sweden. If m2783+ was born anno domini, then it could only be brought from North Sweden to Baltics via sea.

    You have trouble believing they could be Baltic Finns? Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    You have trouble believing they could be Baltic Finns? Why?
    Because
    1) closest clades to them are associated with varyags and located North Sweden, not Estonians/North Russians that are located closer;
    2) they seem to be "informed" (spread around) about Baltic cultural borders after 800. So if they got into Baltic nobility around that period it would make perfect sense;
    3) there is just one rather young N1c1 clade in Balts with closest relatives over sea vs many old R1a clades that are cross shared regionally.

    Of course there might be other scenarios that might lead to similar distribution. So, please share, my brain is already infected by this idea, but maybe you can have fresh look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Because
    1) closest clades to them are associated with varyags and located North Sweden, not Estonians/North Russians that are located closer;
    2) they seem to be "informed" (spread around) about Baltic cultural borders after 800. So if they got into Baltic nobility around that period it would make perfect sense;
    3) there is just one rather young N1c1 clade in Balts with closest relatives over sea vs many old R1a clades that are cross shared regionally.

    Of course there might be other scenarios that might lead to similar distribution. So, please share, my brain is already infected by this idea, but maybe you can have fresh look.

    What closest clades? Before it goes to Baltic it is in West Finland.

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    Exactly! Before it went into Balts it was in West Finland...

    Another interesting Norse Baltic link.
    According to certain Russian sources Gediminas was son of Skolmantas (one of Yatwing Princes and sorcerer).

    Yatwings (before viking age known as Sudovians) etimology is now pretty much believed to come from Old Norse Jatvigr (luck in war or lucky spear).
    It is pretty much possible that Gediminas' very early ancestor was Norseman Jatvigr, founder of Jatvings clan...

    The deeper I get into this, the more of Norse I find in early Balt statehood...

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Exactly! Before it went into Balts it was in West Finland...

    Another interesting Norse Baltic link.
    According to certain Russian sources Gediminas was son of Skolmantas (one of Yatwing Princes and sorcerer).

    Yatwings (before viking age known as Sudovians) etimology is now pretty much believed to come from Old Norse Jatvigr (luck in war or lucky spear).
    It is pretty much possible that Gediminas' very early ancestor was Norseman Jatvigr, founder of Jatvings clan...

    The deeper I get into this, the more of Norse I find in early Balt statehood...
    How does it go from Finnish to Norse?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    How does it go from Finnish to Norse?
    He was a Kven that went and live between Norse people.
    After,some of his ancestors went to Baltic countries.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yotvingians#Name

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    He was a Kven that went and live between Norse people.
    After,some of his ancestors went to Baltic countries.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yotvingians#Name

    His ancestors did well in Baltic.

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    Some other info from archeological finds in modern Kaliningrad:
    http://www.kantiana.ru/crossroads/do...alogue_eng.pdf

    Authors (Polish, Lithuanian and Russian) research viking age finds in modern Kaliningrad, ancient Prussia and finds out Norse warriors among local people. Norse chieftains graves. Large cemetery near Truso. And other finds. Among conclusions is also this note:
    "It was within the limits of this interethnic (Balts, Varangians - my comment) contacts route where Grand Duchy of Litowsky came into being, probably as an instrument of control over its (Neman trade route - my comment) uninterrupted activity".

    Everything starts to make sense. Piece by piece.

    Some new questions still do arise.
    1) Scandinavian colonies are attested in Prussia coastal areas (Truso, Kaup and some others, vikings from modern Sweden territory). And then we have Yatwings deeper inland. There are several touchpoints but for my theory to hold we need both sources to be in majority one clan. Can the Baltic ones (Yatwings + Truso colonists) be the same folk? Could it be there were two gangs/clans operating and later conflicting - Rurik's men and alikes (L550, L1025-) on Kiev/Novgorod trade route and Yatwigr's (?) men (L550, L1025+, possibly M2783+) on Neman trade route?

    What started as simple speculation, turned into google searches. I still dont give 100% credibility to this idea, but at least I have learned a lot on Varyag Balt early interactions :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Some other info from archeological finds in modern Kaliningrad:
    http://www.kantiana.ru/crossroads/do...alogue_eng.pdf

    Authors (Polish, Lithuanian and Russian) research viking age finds in modern Kaliningrad, ancient Prussia and finds out Norse warriors among local people. Norse chieftains graves. Large cemetery near Truso. And other finds. Among conclusions is also this note:
    "It was within the limits of this interethnic (Balts, Varangians - my comment) contacts route where Grand Duchy of Litowsky came into being, probably as an instrument of control over its (Neman trade route - my comment) uninterrupted activity".

    Everything starts to make sense. Piece by piece.

    Some new questions still do arise.
    1) Scandinavian colonies are attested in Prussia coastal areas (Truso, Kaup and some others, vikings from modern Sweden territory). And then we have Yatwings deeper inland. There are several touchpoints but for my theory to hold we need both sources to be in majority one clan. Can the Baltic ones (Yatwings + Truso colonists) be the same folk? Could it be there were two gangs/clans operating and later conflicting - Rurik's men and alikes (L550, L1025-) on Kiev/Novgorod trade route and Yatwigr's (?) men (L550, L1025+, possibly M2783+) on Neman trade route?

    What started as simple speculation, turned into google searches. I still dont give 100% credibility to this idea, but at least I have learned a lot on Varyag Balt early interactions :)
    What other haplos do you have from the area? I1, I2, R1b?

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    Hard to have anything from this particular area. If we talk about Lithuania then according eupedia:
    42% - N1C
    38% - R1A
    6% - I1
    5% - I2
    5% - R1B

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Hard to have anything from this particular area. If we talk about Lithuania then according eupedia:
    42% - N1C
    38% - R1A
    6% - I1
    5% - I2
    5% - R1B
    N1c in sweden is around 10%, they must have really been dominant if they came from Sweden.

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