Proto-Indo-Europeans were the Highlanders, who lived near the sea.

[bicicleur 2]

Here is a global map of skin color reflectance. It may not be exact, but I think the general pattern is probably accurate enough for our purposes. The decreasing cline for "dark" pigmentation seems pretty gradual to me.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...abeled_Renatto_Luschan_Skin_color_map.svg.png

For North Africans, a couple of factors might be at play, I think. We don't know much about the pigmentation of the "indigenous" inhabitants. We do know that a large Neolithic migration impacted the area. We also know that there was some movement of Arabian tribes into the area. At the same time, SSA introgression, perhaps fairly constant, but definitely important since the era of the Arab slave trade has resulted in average levels for SSA of 25%. We also know that there were large scale importations of Europeans versus another slave route. So, figuring this one out is beyond me.

Another interesting fact is that studies done on women in these areas show that many of them suffer from Vitamin D deficiencies resulting in serious health problems. It's hypothesized that the cause is the heavy veiling that they wear, particularly in the more conservative rural areas.

plenty of sun in north africa, more than in the equatorial forests
neolithic immigration seems to be at play
neolithic immigration were cattle herders (R1-V88 and T), some 8000 years ago probably
that is 8000 years natural selection could have played to make them darker
of course there is also the late arrival of Arabs

south africa would be interesting to study :
arrival of cattle 2000 years ago (haplo E1b1b and some T)
arrival of Bantu 1700 years ago (haplo E1b1a )
original subsahara : haplo A&B
nice puzzle

 

[Aberdeen]

IIRC Denisovian didn't leave much genetic imprint in East Asians. There is another hominid to be found who gave bunch of East Asian traits. Perhaps the Peking man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Man

You may be right about it being Peking Man or some group other than Denisovians, but I'm quite convinced that the differences in human skin colour can't be explained by depigmentation alone, important though it is. Perhaps different types of early hominids had different skin colours for whatever reason, just as different breeds of dogs have different skin colours, and the mixing of modern humans with other types of hominids did affect skin colour before depigmentation became part of the story.

 

[holderlin]

IMO, that's the only way to explain the massive difference between Sub-Saharan Africans and the people of North Africa and Arabia. I doubt that people who lived for thousands of years in hot deserts would have paler skin than people who lived under a forest canopy in a tropical rainforest during that same time period unless there was something else going on besides climate based selection. And I wonder whether the yellowish skin tone found in East Asians (who are often quite depigmented) comes from some other population, such as Denisovians.

This is most likely, given what we know about the speed with which mammalian genes tend to change, even under strong selective pressures.

I'm pretty sure someone did this calculation and it was somewhere around 1 mil years to likely generate the alleles that we know of, under selective pressures.

 

[holderlin]

I'm pressed for time, so I won't be able to respond at length to each of your points with the relevant citations to the appropriate papers. I would just say that none of the comments I made originated with me. They are "cribbed", I'm afraid, from the extensive literature on the subject, some of it dating back thirty or more years to the pioneering work of Cavalli-Sforza. Nor do I have the time, unfortunately, to point out once again the specific areas where I think there is still ambiguity. If you search under pigmentation on this board a number of threads and posts should turn up where I do address some of those issues.

I do have the following list of papers and commentaries in a file, and I update it periodically. You're welcome to have at it and read the papers and come to your own conclusions. This is only a representative sample of the most recent relevant papers, of course, but the papers provide cites to many others in their acknowledgment sections as well as in the body of the papers.


Norton et al, 2006, Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and East Asians:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.full

Pickrell and Coop, 2009, Signals of Recent Selection in World Wide Populations:
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/19/5/826.full.p..

Ola Engelsen et al 2010, The Relationship between Ultraviolet Radiation Exposure and Vitamin D Status
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257661/

Jablonski and Chaplin 2010, Human skin pigmentation as an adaptation to UV radiation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3024016/

Lucotte and Yuasa, 2011,
http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379514057_Lucotte and Yuasa pdf.pdf

Canfield and Cheng et al, 2013 Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Positive Selection:
http://www.g3journal.org/content/3/11/2059.full

Sandra Wilde et al, 2014, Direct evidence for positive selection in skin, hair and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 years:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full

This is a google book:
Human Evolutionary Biology, Michael P. Muehlenbein, Chapter on Skin Coloration
https://books.google.com/books?id=1...0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Lamason et al&f=false

Razib Khan, at Discovery Magazine has provided commentary for each of these papers and others. This is a link to the relevant archive of them (arranged in reverse chronological order:
http://www.razib.com/wordpress/?cat=566

Dienekes has also commented on some of them:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/11/europeans-and-south-asians-share-by.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/01/slc24a5-light-skin-pigmentation-allele.html

Lulz

Yes, I know you read, and I'm aware that people have been studying this subject and generating papers for a little while. I understand that you're often citing the conclusions or data from these findings.

I believe I've read all of these papers, or combed the abstracts, but a lot of the commentary I have not, which is always revealing.

Thanks for the links.

 

[holderlin]

Although, I don't rule out that in turn the Leyla-Tepe was heavily influenced by the (Sumerian) Ubaid Culture! But Leyla-Tepe was the rise of the proto-Indo-European cultures.

Where do you come up with this stuff? And why?

 

[Goga]

Where do you come up with this stuff? And why?

Why what? What do you mean? Because I love science? If you ask me how I came to this conclusion, it is by bringing all the puzzle pieces together. West European R1b Indo-European folks have a lot of Gedrosia aDNA in them. Gedrosia is not native to Europe. Gedrosia is native to the Iranian Plateau. Original Y-DNA haplogroup R1b that you can find in Europe is from the Iranian Plateau which is rich of Gedrosia folks. Original Indo-European folks that migrated into Europe had much more Gedrosia component, but over time ,and time after time, after 3500 years the original Indo-European Gedrosia aDNA component is still diluting in them. R1b is NOT native to Europe, R1b* is from the Iranian Plateau. But so is R1a*, because there is a higher variance of R1a* in NorthWest Asia than elsewhere on this planet. You can find the ancestor of the Indian and European R1a* in NorthWest Asia. The European R1b* ancestors (older subtypes) have also been found in West Asia. So, we have genetic evidence that R1b is from the Iranian Plateau, and that the first R1b folks had lots of Gedrosia aDNA in them. Gedrosia is from the Iranian Plateau, somewhere between Zagros Mountains (NorthWest Asia) and SouthCentral Asia!

If your question is why I'm linking proto-Indo-Europeans to Leyla-Tepe and If you're intersted in this stuff, this is a really nice read, but there're lots of papers on this issue :
There are also many archeological evidences that opened my eyes!

"After the Ubaid: interpreting change from the caucasus to mesopotamia at the dawn of urban civilization (4500-3500 bc)"

http://www.academia.edu/3187072/Is_...periods_along_the_Fertile_Crescent_and_beyond


"On the Importance of the Caucasian Chronology for the Foundation of the Common Near Eastern - East European Chronological System"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/240057276/On-the-Importance-of-the-Caucasian-Chronology-for-the-Foundation-of-the-Common-Near-Eastern-East-European-Chronological-System


"Uruk Migrants in the Caucasus"

http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf


"Pre-classical survey in eastern Turkey. First preliminary report : TheAğrı Dağ (Mount Ararat) Region"

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/anata_1018-1946_2003_num_11_1_1012

 

[Goga]

For more clarification here a graph. Here we go. So Maykop DIRECT from Leyla-Tepe. Uruk (mixed with Ubaid) direct from Leyla-Tepe, Uruk = Ubaid + Leyla-Tepe. Yamnaya is from Maykop, so that makes Yamnaya from Leyla-Tepe. Leyla-Tepe culture is the source of the Indo-European R1b* AND the Gedrosia aDNA in NorthWestern Europe!!!

http://en.inforapid.org/index.php?search=Leyla-Tepe culture

 

[Angela]

Lulz

Yes, I know you read, and I'm aware that people have been studying this subject and generating papers for a little while. I understand that you're often citing the conclusions or data from these findings.

I believe I've read all of these papers, or combed the abstracts, but a lot of the commentary I have not, which is always revealing.

Thanks for the links.​

My apologies. Obviously, in this case, appearances were deceiving...​

 

[Angela]

Nice. You're right at home here with Near East PIE Homeland boy above us.

I'm having selective pressure to jerk off while I type this and I just started growing a third arm.

Really? I state that I was mistaken in thinking you hadn't read the papers, and this is the response? Ethnic slurs too? How old are you? Twelve?

Believe me, it takes more than this to shock or discomfit me. This is just childish.

And another one bites the dust...

Is there a limit to how many people you can put on your ignore list?

Oh, by the way, do you find that this style of speaking to women when you disagree with them works for you in... Australia, isn't it? Just wondering.

 

[holderlin]

And my achievements say that I'm getting along well

 

[bicicleur 2]

For more clarification here a graph. Here we go. So Maykop DIRECT from Leyla-Tepe. Uruk (mixed with Ubaid) direct from Leyla-Tepe, Uruk = Ubaid + Leyla-Tepe. Yamnaya is from Maykop, so that makes Yamnaya from Leyla-Tepe. Leyla-Tepe culture is the source of the Indo-European R1b* AND the Gedrosia aDNA in NorthWestern Europe!!!

http://en.inforapid.org/index.php?search=Leyla-Tepe culture

the article seems to be a copy/past of several wikipedia articles
and the graph is very speculative, putting Leyla-Tepe in the center
Leyla-Tepe may be ancestral to Maykop, but not to all these other cultures
it probably was strongly influenced by Uruk/Ubaid
and it may be R1b-P297 or R1b-M269, but not R1b*

 

[bicicleur 2]

For more clarification here a graph. Here we go. So Maykop DIRECT from Leyla-Tepe. Uruk (mixed with Ubaid) direct from Leyla-Tepe, Uruk = Ubaid + Leyla-Tepe. Yamnaya is from Maykop, so that makes Yamnaya from Leyla-Tepe. Leyla-Tepe culture is the source of the Indo-European R1b* AND the Gedrosia aDNA in NorthWestern Europe!!!

http://en.inforapid.org/index.php?search=Leyla-Tepe culture

jar-burial culure was only 2200 years ago
what more do you know about it

have a look :
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.be/2012/09/la-bastida-de-totana-spain-may-have.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Argar_tombe_9.JPG/915px-El_Argar_tombe_9.JPG

the article is not 100 % correct

La Bastida exists from 2300 BC, but 2000 BC it was destroyed by invaders who also had jar burials
These people introduced bronze working in Iberia
I wonder what is the connection with later jar-burrial in Kura-Araks basin

They seem to have a common origin

 

[Aberdeen]

Nice. You're right at home here with Near East PIE Homeland boy above us.

I'm having selective pressure to jerk off while I type this and I just started growing a third arm.

Yet another immature teenager who doesn't belong on a forum for adults.

I'm going to track down your real identity and tell your mom what you said.

 

[Goga]

and it may be R1b-P297 or R1b-M269, but not R1b*

Yeah, of course not R1b*, but after R1b. I used R1b* to be LESS specific, but I meant actually something like P297 (ancestor of the European R1b) or even M335 (Hurrian or Sumerian ???).

 

[Goga]

jar-burial culure was only 2200 years ago
what more do you know about it

have a look :
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.be/2012/09/la-bastida-de-totana-spain-may-have.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Argar_tombe_9.JPG/915px-El_Argar_tombe_9.JPG

the article is not 100 % correct

La Bastida exists from 2300 BC, but 2000 BC it was destroyed by invaders who also had jar burials
These people introduced bronze working in Iberia
I wonder what is the connection with later jar-burrial in Kura-Araks basin

They seem to have a common origin

There was even a Jar-Burial Culture in SouthEast Asia. But it is possible that the Kura-Araxes culture (early trans-Caucasian culture) was related to the Hurrian ??? Urkesh civilization (Tell Arbid) , located in Rojava (Mesopotamia/West Kurdistan). Those Jar-Burials in Urkesh are also for about 5000 years old! It's possible that those who introduced Jar-Burials in Urkesh (Rojava, Western Kuridstan, Mesopotamia) were the same who introduced Jar-Burials in trans-Caucasus and came from the Leyla-Tepe Horizon (Iranian Plateau). Ancestors of proto-Hurrians and the ancestors of proto-Centum-Indo-Europeans could have something in common with each other. All I know is that there was a mutual influence during the time of the Hittites, that's for sure.

http://www.academia.edu/2493600/Bur...rrelations_with_the_Nile_Delta_and_the_Levant

 

[holderlin]

Yet another immature teenager who doesn't belong on a forum for adults.

I'm going to track down your real identity and tell your mom what you said.

Are you guys for real?

I was the recipient of the first insult.

But Tell her to send me money.

 

[holderlin]

Why what? What do you mean? Because I love science? If you ask me how I came to this conclusion, it is by bringing all the puzzle pieces together. West European R1b Indo-European folks have a lot of Gedrosia aDNA in them. Gedrosia is not native to Europe. Gedrosia is native to the Iranian Plateau. Original Y-DNA haplogroup R1b that you can find in Europe is from the Iranian Plateau which is rich of Gedrosia folks. Original Indo-European folks that migrated into Europe had much more Gedrosia component, but over time ,and time after time, after 3500 years the original Indo-European Gedrosia aDNA component is still diluting in them. R1b is NOT native to Europe, R1b* is from the Iranian Plateau. But so is R1a*, because there is a higher variance of R1a* in NorthWest Asia than elsewhere on this planet. You can find the ancestor of the Indian and European R1a* in NorthWest Asia. The European R1b* ancestors (older subtypes) have also been found in West Asia. So, we have genetic evidence that R1b is from the Iranian Plateau, and that the first R1b folks had lots of Gedrosia aDNA in them. Gedrosia is from the Iranian Plateau, somewhere between Zagros Mountains (NorthWest Asia) and SouthCentral Asia!

If your question is why I'm linking proto-Indo-Europeans to Leyla-Tepe and If you're intersted in this stuff, this is a really nice read, but there're lots of papers on this issue :
There are also many archeological evidences that opened my eyes!

"After the Ubaid: interpreting change from the caucasus to mesopotamia at the dawn of urban civilization (4500-3500 bc)"

http://www.academia.edu/3187072/Is_...periods_along_the_Fertile_Crescent_and_beyond


"On the Importance of the Caucasian Chronology for the Foundation of the Common Near Eastern - East European Chronological System"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/240057276/On-the-Importance-of-the-Caucasian-Chronology-for-the-Foundation-of-the-Common-Near-Eastern-East-European-Chronological-System


"Uruk Migrants in the Caucasus"

http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf


"Pre-classical survey in eastern Turkey. First preliminary report : TheAğrı Dağ (Mount Ararat) Region"

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/anata_1018-1946_2003_num_11_1_1012

PIE homeland is wrought with problems, but a Near East location is the most problematic, and because of this requires the most complex model.

I can't get it all down now because I'm in a rush but here's some key obstacles:

It is inconsistent with what we know of linguistic differentiation given the archaisms in the Anatolian languages. How did Hittite conserve so much if it was on the periphery of the homeland?

The thing about West Asia is that we have very early historically attested languages e.g. Hurrian-Urartian, Elamite, and Hattic on the periphery. These languages are attested at a time frame very close to that of PIE, they are present in the areas you're selecting for a PIE homeland, and are later displaced by PIE speaking peoples. In fact the three groups I've listed seem to disappear entirely.

And lastly, most bronze age records attest to IE speaking peoples as intrusive to the regions/surrounding regions you speak of.

 

[Goga]

PIE homeland is wrought with problems, but a Near East location is the most problematic, and because of this requires the most complex model.

I can't get it all down now because I'm in a rush but here's some key obstacles:

It is inconsistent with what we know of linguistic differentiation given the archaisms in the Anatolian languages. How did Hittite conserve so much if it was on the periphery of the homeland?

The thing about West Asia is that we have very early historically attested languages e.g. Hurrian-Urartian, Elamite, and Hattic on the periphery. These languages are attested at a time frame very close to that of PIE, they are present in the areas you're selecting for a PIE homeland, and are later displaced by PIE speaking peoples. In fact the three groups I've listed seem to disappear entirely.

And lastly, most bronze age records attest to IE speaking peoples as intrusive to the regions/surrounding regions you speak of.

West Asia has always been multi cultural and multi linguistic, because of the mountainous region there. The mountains literally divided and are divinding the people, they are the geographic boundaries. Actually the place where there are so many different languages is actually the place where a new language can be born. The pluralism and the variance of different languageis a good indication that the environment is sustainable enough to create a new language. There is no proof that around the Leyla-Tepe folks were not proto-Indo-European. Also, Indo European is not that old as other ancient native West Asian languages. It's a recent language that doesn't rule out the co-existence of other languages.

You have no proves at all. You have no strong proves that do support in your fairytales. So you only bark so to speak, without the real counter arguments.

Actually the Steppes model is full of nonsense, contradicting facts and lots of wishful thinking. The Steppes model doesn't have any strong arguments at all, not even 1 argument.

But haters will continue to hate and denials are going to deny, there is a great proverb in the Middle East, the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on!

 

[Taranis]

PIE homeland is wrought with problems, but a Near East location is the most problematic, and because of this requires the most complex model.

I can't get it all down now because I'm in a rush but here's some key obstacles:

It is inconsistent with what we know of linguistic differentiation given the archaisms in the Anatolian languages. How did Hittite conserve so much if it was on the periphery of the homeland?

The thing about West Asia is that we have very early historically attested languages e.g. Hurrian-Urartian, Elamite, and Hattic on the periphery. These languages are attested at a time frame very close to that of PIE, they are present in the areas you're selecting for a PIE homeland, and are later displaced by PIE speaking peoples. In fact the three groups I've listed seem to disappear entirely.

And lastly, most bronze age records attest to IE speaking peoples as intrusive to the regions/surrounding regions you speak of.

Exactly this. The plethora of non-IE languages (be they Elamite, Hurro-Urartian or Sumerian, they were generally all agglutinative, where PIE was fusional) found in the supposed PIE homeland is one of the main obstacles of that scenario. There's an additional problem with this in the Anatolian languages, the one branch of Indo-European that was present in Anatolia relatively early on: according to one of the current foremost Anatolianists, Craig Melchert, there's not a single example of a loanword from any one of the Near Eastern languages or language families actually reconstructable for Proto-Anatolian, and this would suggest that Proto-Anatolian was actually not originally spoken in Anatolia.

The language families that can reasonably be assumed to have had early contact with Indo-European are Uralic and Kartvelic, and for that, the Pontic-Caspian steppe is the best-working scenario. That model also has the advantage that there's a common Indo-European word for 'wheel' (or 'wheeled vehicle'), reconstructable for PIE, and the wheel was a 'new' technology that is actually tracable via archaeology. The oldest vehicle sites come from more or less simulatenously from Mesopotamia (Uruk, certainly from the clearly non-Indo-European Sumerians), from Central Europe and from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, and certainly not from Anatolia, and certainly not from the Iranian plateau.

 

[Robert6]

The Steppes model doesn't have any strong arguments at all, not even 1 argument.

Why not?
If proto-Kurgan Leyla-Tepe culture is PIE, then PIE were in the Steppes.
Leyla-Tepe and Maikop cultures are in Steppe environment.
Part of the Azerbaijan and Dagestan mountains(and close to the mountains) have Steppe environment.
Leyla-Tepe lived like Steppe people,
Kurds partly live like Steppe people,
because they live in the region that is Steppe like. (while for example Kazakhs live mostly in modern homes today)

Steppe environment maps
http://pontika-inkognita.ru/nature/img/5-19.jpg
http://e-lib.gasu.ru/konf/FrozenTombs/images/27.jpg
http://www.klass39.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/00014696.jpg
http://megabook.ru/stream/mediapreview?Key=Биомы (географическая карта)&Width=10000&Height=10000