Proto-Indo-Europeans were the Highlanders, who lived near the sea.

Robert6

Regular Member
Messages
308
Reaction score
40
Points
0
Journal of Language Relationship • 9 (2013) • Pp. 69–92 • © Dybo A., 2013
Anna Dybo
Russian State University for the Humanities (Moscow)
Language and archeology: some methodological problems.1. Indo-European and Altaic landscapes
The article is the first part of a larger work that represents an attempt to systematize ourideas on the natural environment and material culture of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. It is based on a more or less complete selection of reconstructed words from the appropriate semantic areas and on their comparison with a similar selection performed for a proto-language of similar time depth, whose speakers evidently inhabited a territory that was notin contact with the Proto-Indo-European one — Proto-Altaic. In this part, only the words that belong to the semantic field of landscape terms are analyzed. The main conclusion is that thehypothesis of a steppe environment is more applicable for the Proto-Altaic population,whereas for Proto-Indo-Europeans a mountainous region seems more appropriate. As forthe water bodies, for Proto-Indo-Europeans we should suppose the existence of a sea (or of avery big lake), and for speakers of Proto-Altaic, the existence of very big rivers with seasonfloods.
http://jolr.ru/files/(108)jlr2013-9(69-92).pdf
 
The area of Caucasus, or the Caspian and Aral sea seems most logical for earliest origins.
 
Consistent with the Caucasus and Black Sea, but I don't agree that this rules out the inclusion of the Steppe. It only indicates that the Steppe wasn't the only terrain within the homeland.

Of course I'm also trying my best not to mention that the archaeological and genetic evidence requires the inclusion of the steppe. And I just failed at this, sorry.

Currently I'm going with Maykop/Yamna unification beginning on the Northern fringes of Maykop and the Southern reaches of what is considered to be Yamna. Both groups originated from common ancestors who were the first fair haired and skinned peoples (R1*), which gave them a deep rooted kinship. They were descended from mammoth hunters->aurochs/deer hunters who gradually learned, or were forced to learn how to manipulate and cull herds resulting in a pastoralist culture.

What we regard as PIE culture was a peak of this kinship resulting from what I think was a trade of bronze (and cattle?) originating from Maykop, for horses and wheeled vehicle technology that originated on the steppe. The result was the first highly mobile people with frigin swords.
 
Currently I'm going with Maykop/Yamna unification beginning on the Northern fringes of Maykop and the Southern reaches of what is considered to be Yamna. Both groups originated from common ancestors who were the first fair haired and skinned peoples (R1*), which gave them a deep rooted kinship. They were descended from mammoth hunters->aurochs/deer hunters who gradually learned, or were forced to learn how to manipulate and cull herds resulting in a pastoralist culture.
It has been proven many times that Maykop folks were originally from the Iranian Plateau. Just South of the Caspian Sea. That area is also VERY mountanious. Ancestors of PIE are either from the Zagros Mountains or the Elburz mountains.
.
10054-004-566A6858.jpg


screenshot-2014-04-25-16.17.47.png


http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/152387/
 
Consistent with the Caucasus and Black Sea, but I don't agree that this rules out the inclusion of the Steppe. It only indicates that the Steppe wasn't the only terrain within the homeland.

Of course I'm also trying my best not to mention that the archaeological and genetic evidence requires the inclusion of the steppe. And I just failed at this, sorry.

Currently I'm going with Maykop/Yamna unification beginning on the Northern fringes of Maykop and the Southern reaches of what is considered to be Yamna. Both groups originated from common ancestors who were the first fair haired and skinned peoples (R1*), which gave them a deep rooted kinship. They were descended from mammoth hunters->aurochs/deer hunters who gradually learned, or were forced to learn how to manipulate and cull herds resulting in a pastoralist culture.

What we regard as PIE culture was a peak of this kinship resulting from what I think was a trade of bronze (and cattle?) originating from Maykop, for horses and wheeled vehicle technology that originated on the steppe. The result was the first highly mobile people with frigin swords.
I agree with you.
 
Consistent with the Caucasus and Black Sea, but I don't agree that this rules out the inclusion of the Steppe. It only indicates that the Steppe wasn't the only terrain within the homeland.

Of course I'm also trying my best not to mention that the archaeological and genetic evidence requires the inclusion of the steppe. And I just failed at this, sorry.

Currently I'm going with Maykop/Yamna unification beginning on the Northern fringes of Maykop and the Southern reaches of what is considered to be Yamna. Both groups originated from common ancestors who were the first fair haired and skinned peoples (R1*), which gave them a deep rooted kinship. They were descended from mammoth hunters->aurochs/deer hunters who gradually learned, or were forced to learn how to manipulate and cull herds resulting in a pastoralist culture.

What we regard as PIE culture was a peak of this kinship resulting from what I think was a trade of bronze (and cattle?) originating from Maykop, for horses and wheeled vehicle technology that originated on the steppe. The result was the first highly mobile people with frigin swords.

The first fair haired and fair skinned ancient sample so far found was in a Copper Age, 100% autosomally EEF farmer.

I'm afraid you have about a year's worth of reading to do...

Start with Lazaridis et al, then maybe Skoglund et al, then Gamba et al.

Then perhaps you might want to search this site for threads about pigmentation.

Oh, and don't forget Sandra Wilde et al about the Catacomb people and their pigmentation.
 
It has been proven many times that Maykop folks were originally from the Iranian Plateau. Just South of the Caspian Sea. That area is also VERY mountanious. Ancestors of PIE are.....

This isn't inconsistent with my statement, in fact this is in agreement with what a lot of people think of R1b.

But I think the linguistics are also supportive of this positioning. You have indications of contact from both Sumer and what is presumed to be Uralic speaking peoples in the PIE lexicon. This could of course be through other means than positional, but given the cultural and proximity differences from the two cultures I think this is unlikely.
 
Caucasus:
Some of the oldest Kurgans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVK6E1t_P7A
Some of the oldest wine production. *ɣwino-
Some of oldest honey production. *médʰu
Home of Vahagn Vishapakagh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vahagn
Verethragna
(vərəθraγna)Verethragna (vərəθraγna) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verethragn
Indira[God] in oldest Indo-European peace treaty between Hittites/Mittani[Kurds]
Adjacent oldest recorded Indo-European Hittite Neša,
Adjacent [Bull-Silver] Semite tribes. Proto-Kartvelian- Uralic region.
Adjacent some of oldest iron/steel works, Hittites Kaman-Kalehoyuk


Mountains with snow/Large body of water/Salmon.Mixed forests. Region has R1a/b and ANE
The Caucasus Mixed Forests are located at a biogeographical crossroads where flora and fauna of at least three biogeographic provinces converge. Mount Elbrus, Europe’s highest point at 5,642 meters (m) above sea level
http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/150959/


caucasus-mixed-forests-map.png
 
The first fair haired and fair skinned ancient sample so far found was in a Copper Age, 100% autosomally EEF farmer.

R1* would predate the "Copper Age"

You should insert [ancient genetic evidence] into your statement. This isn't inconsistent with my post. And a purely autosomal comparison is beyond the scope of my statement.


I'm afraid you have about a year's worth of reading to do...

Start with Lazaridis et al, then maybe Skoglund et al, then Gamba et al.

Then perhaps you might want to search this site for threads about pigmentation.

None of this is inconsistent with my post. I actually think that most of these alleles came from Neandertals to Sapien Sapien females to SS Males. I just think that R1* was the lucky (or cursed?) recipient.

Oh, and don't forget Sandra Wilde et al about the Catacomb people and their pigmentation.

These findings aren't inconsistent which what I said either.
 
Patterson said that linguistic evidence has tracked the ancestral language, called “late proto-Indo-European” to about 3,500 years ago in the Caucasus, among a people who had wheeled vehicles at a time when they were just being put into use.
Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. That made Patterson look south, to the Maikop civilization, which likely had significant contact with the Yamnaya, as a plausible culture where Indo-European languages originated. Samples have been obtained from Maikop burial sites, but the DNA work to test that proposal is pending, Patterson said.http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/
 
Nope - that's all wrong. The IE expansion was already well underway by 3500 years ago (read the Vedas) and wheeled vehicles have been around much longer than that. And the Vedic invaders of India had a lot of Y haplotype R1a. And are these people arguing that the European Bronze Age started before the IE folk arrived in Europe?
 
R1* would predate the "Copper Age"

You should insert [ancient genetic evidence] into your statement. This isn't inconsistent with my post. And a purely autosomal comparison is beyond the scope of my statement.

None of this is inconsistent with my post. I actually think that most of these alleles came from Neandertals to Sapien Sapien females to SS Males. I just think that R1* was the lucky (or cursed?) recipient.

These findings aren't inconsistent which what I said either.

None of it is consistent either. There is absolutely no indication, as of yet, that those samples in Gamba et al are y Dna *R* of any type. To assume that they are is speculation on a grand order.
 
Nope - that's all wrong. The IE expansion was already well underway by 3500 years ago (read the Vedas) and wheeled vehicles have been around much longer than that. And the Vedic invaders of India had a lot of Y haplotype R1a. And are these people arguing that the European Bronze Age started before the IE folk arrived in Europe?
He meant 3500 years BC
Maikop is 3500-3000 BC

The Maikop people had
[h=3]Sati (practice)[/h] and Indo-Aryans + Scythians had this practice also
 
He meant 3500 years BC
Maikop is 3500-3000 BC

The Maikop people had
Sati (practice)

and Indo-Aryans + Scythians had this practice also

So, does this mean that Indo-Europeans aren't part Karelian after all? And does this mean that Corded Ware wasn't an early IE horizon in Eastern Europe? Then who were the Corded Ware folk?
 
Then who were the Corded Ware folk?
Could be anybody (from pre- to proto-Germanics), but definitely NOT proto-Indo-European speakers...
 
This isn't inconsistent with my statement, in fact this is in agreement with what a lot of people think of R1b.

But I think the linguistics are also supportive of this positioning. You have indications of contact from both Sumer and what is presumed to be Uralic speaking peoples in the PIE lexicon. This could of course be through other means than positional, but given the cultural and proximity differences from the two cultures I think this is unlikely.
The very first 'late'-proto-Indo-European (proto-Balto-Slavic, proto-Italo-Celtic, proto-Germanic) speakers that entered Europe came from the Maykop Horizon. But the very EARLIEST-proto-Indo-European speakers that migrated into the Maykop-horizon came from the Iranian Plateau and their auDNA was full of Caucaso-Gedrosia-type, a mix between NorthWest Asia and SouthCentral Asia.
 
I'msorry because I shall not bring any light in the debate, I' m toonegative
-pigmentation is not fully undestood by geneticians for now
-it seems our light pigmentation(s) is not the result of Neanderthalmen genes
-whatever the place of first apparition, I hold thinking thecollective second depigmentation (including hairs) took place in thesub-baltic and steppic regions what implies it would have been acommon trait among most of future I-Eans but not the proof of anearly PIE people on this model -- some more or less rare lightpigmented people among Neolithical men of East Europe and withlabelled EEF autosomals component(s) doesn't tell us the spreading(generalization) of light pigmentation occurred principally amongEuropean farmers – no ready-for-use answer – I'm still persuaded'nordic' type formed itself East to Europe and was a big part of thefinal I-Eans population (its autosomes could be atypical compared toancient classifications as EEF ANE or WHG/EHG...) -
-we are linking maybe too tightly the I-Eans raising with a COMPLETEKIT of technical innovations or skills and we fail (maybe again) toexplain the very neat break between Centum and Satem, as a whole (thekurgans people had more than a link, their cattle if what I red istrue, came from the Cucuteni-Tripolje area and not fromSouth-Caucasus, and we forget the apparently old age of first I-Eansraids in western Europe (3300 BC, 4200 BC in eastern Europe) theKurgans and partners of 2800 BC could have been the first Satem ones(or partially Satem, what I suppose concerning the Corded and otherBattle Axes people - the separation Centum/Satem ought to be theresult of two well separated branches (time and distance?)...
thatsaid, it seems the more culturally advanced people having thepossibility to give an impulse (and a language) to a future I-Eanworld, were the people living just South the Caucasus and the Caspianbut also the Cucuteni-Tripolje people - we know southern people,called « Highlands Armenians » had a genetic andtaxinomic imput on the steppic people, without uniformity was everrealised, but studies of the same kind tell us too that a lot ofpeople of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture and area presented the same kindof types (the males for the most, females being more « local »according to someones) so... the partial osmose between steppicpeople and South-Caspian people seems being occurred later, at themetals ages, about the 2000s BC maybe, too late for theindividualization-cristallization of a PIE language which would havealready send sets towards western Europe, I think – and except theOssetians and Laz people, Armenians and Kurds, I-Ean languages lackin Caucasus, and the ones present today appeared all to be arrivedthere from elsewhere.



&:concerning language and geography, the Caspian sea has more than ashore, North, East by example.


sorry I wrote that before the very last posts

the Goga thoughts are not stupid at all - I think 'nordic' type formed at least for a part on a population merging with North India-North Pakistan and climbed long enough ago northwards into the southern Eurasian steppes (only a bet it's true) -
but is their 'gedrosia' component the SAME 'gedrosia' component as among Iranians OF TODAY??? if they had some links with ancestors of these last Iranians, theyr trace back to older times than the Oasis cultures of S-Steppes
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow!!! I made a mess with my letters police!!! Sorry!
 

This thread has been viewed 157462 times.

Back
Top