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Thread: Corded Ware Culture Signals Population Change in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    R1a in Kurdistan Zagros Mountains is not only the oldest but also one of the most DIVERSE. You can find all kind of types of R1a in Kurdistan and not only 1 specific R1a lineage of 1 branch (bottleneck). But many different branches.
    here we go again...............which subclade ? ..........the R1a on its own means zero
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    here we go again...............which subclade ? ..........the R1a on its own means zero



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    As you CAN see here : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html , R1a in West Asia is MUCH more diverse than R1a elsewhere, be it in Europe, the Steppes or Central Asia! R1a in the eastern Europe is mostly from Z283. R1a in Central Asia is mostly from Z93. R1a in West Asia has EVERYTHING!

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragro...-vanOven2014-4

    just look at the above link...........vanOven has already updated the haplogroup trees ( see bottom one ) ...updated June 2014

    Everyone in genetics has accepted it..............move on

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    R1a in West Asia = the oldest : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html
    R1a in West Asia = the most diverse! : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    As you CAN see here : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html , R1a in West Asia is MUCH more diverse than R1a elsewhere, be it in Europe, the Steppes or Central Asia! R1a in the eastern Europe is mostly from Z283. R1a in Central Asia is mostly from Z93. R1a in West Asia has EVERYTHING!
    Ok, R1a-M420 is what you say, but that marker is 8000 years younger than R-M207 and R-M207 is Basal for R and its in South-east Asia...read the karafet paper

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    M420 is not a basal marker of R ...it is a "basal" marker for R1a ...if the term basal is accepted in this method

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Everyone in genetics has accepted it..............move on
    Accepted what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Ok, R1a-M420 is what you say, but that marker is 8000 years younger than R-M207 and R-M207 is Basal for R and its in South-east Asia...read the karafet paper

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    M420 is not a basal marker
    I'm not denying that R could be from South-East Asia. I'm only saying that R1a AND R1b evolved somewhere around the Iranian Plateau, Zagros Mountains and migrated into Europe AND India with proto-Indo-European speaking folks. The SPLIT between Z283 and Z93 of R1a occurred in West Asia! 1 branch (Z283) migrated into the Steppes, second branch (z93) went into South Central Asia. Why? Because R1a is in West Asia the oldest and the most diverse. That's why!

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    As you can SEE the R1a in Europe and Central Asia is VERY young AND monotonous. Which suggest that R1a in those areas is heavily bottlenecked and very recent immigrant in those areas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    You're making my point for me. Saying that a particular haplotype was in a particular location at a particular time does not prove that a downstream version must have evolved in that location. And that was the only point I was really making. Even if Goga can prove that some R1a* types were living in Iran 15000 years ago, that doesn't prove anything about where Z283 and Z93 evolved.
    Sure that doesn't prove it but the point what makes an Pontic_Caspian Steppe origin of R1a* unlikely is that it lacks z93 and anyother upstream R1a in that region. So we would have to assume R1a* migrated from the Steppes into West and South_Central Asia and than died out in it's original homeland. That would be too much of coincidence for my taste.

    So no I rather stay on my theory that P* originated somewhere in Southeast Asia close to South Asia. Moved into South_Central Asia evolved to R* and somewhere between South_Central Asia and West Asia evolved to R1a and R1b.

    But thats just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Sure that doesn't prove it but the point what makes an Pontic_Caspian Steppe origin of R1a* unlikely is that it lacks z93 and anyother upstream R1a in that region. So we would have to assume R1a* migrated from the Steppes into West and South_Central Asia and than died out in it's original homeland. That would be too much of coincidence for my taste.

    So no I rather stay on my theory that P* originated somewhere in Southeast Asia close to South Asia. Moved into South_Central Asia evolved to R* and somewhere between South_Central Asia and West Asia evolved to R1a and R1b.

    But thats just my opinion.
    Z93 is not very old. It might happen after the split of IE into West and East (Indo-Iranian) groups in the Steppe.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 14-09-14 at 07:18.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Sure that doesn't prove it but the point what makes an Pontic_Caspian Steppe origin of R1a* unlikely is that it lacks z93 and anyother upstream R1a in that region. So we would have to assume R1a* migrated from the Steppes into West and South_Central Asia and than died out in it's original homeland. That would be too much of coincidence for my taste.

    So no I rather stay on my theory that P* originated somewhere in Southeast Asia close to South Asia. Moved into South_Central Asia evolved to R* and somewhere between South_Central Asia and West Asia evolved to R1a and R1b.

    But thats just my opinion.
    As has been said multiple times, when we talk about the IE homeland, one of the issues is not where R1a first evolved, but where the separation between Z283 and Z93 occurred. That probably happened about 5000 years ago, just about when the IE folk first started spreading east and west from their steppe homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Please, please read Karafet June 2014 paper or will it upset you to find that R is not west-asian , but south-east Asia in origin.

    The bulk of people who you read that are claiming this marker is R1a or R1b this or that in origin always leave out the subclade , because they want that R1a or R1b to be western . Read the paper to check how ydna trees work

    Mal'ta should have been noted as R0 and not R* as he is 71 SNPs away from R1 and 260 SNP's away from R2 . As i said he does not belong to R1 or R2
    In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades

    On plotting charts he sits on his own
    I've read the Karafet paper, and I'd like to note that assumptions can be wrong. When you can show me old DNA from south-east Asia that support the view taken in that paper, then we can talk. And the issue of where R first evolved is not really relevant for this thread anyway. I just mentioned Siberia and Mal'ta Boy to show that results from a much earlier time period aren't really relevant to a discussion of where downstream subclades may have evolved, since people migrate. I'm not sure why some of you have trouble keeping different time periods separate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I've read the Karafet paper, and I'd like to note that assumptions can be wrong. When you can show me old DNA from south-east Asia that support the view taken in that paper, then we can talk. And the issue of where R first evolved is not really relevant for this thread anyway. I just mentioned Siberia and Mal'ta Boy to show that results from a much earlier time period aren't really relevant to a discussion of where downstream subclades may have evolved, since people migrate. I'm not sure why some of you have trouble keeping different time periods separate.
    What do you mean assumptions?, there is always assumptions, that is how we have moved on in the last 10, 20, 30 years ...with assumptions. Its now the current format and will remain the format until the geneticists decide to change it............since its accepted by all geneticts, then we live with it.
    see this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragro...-vanOven2014-4

    vanOven runs all the mtdna and all the ydna for all the genetic papers, they follow this paper , until a point in time that it is proven wrong.

    On Mal'ta boy, he is R*..........he has no other subclades and never will be found any other subclades within him. I do not know why people even mention him.
    * = no more subclades........end of the line
    someone asked to name him R0, but was denied because it was found he had no other markers

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    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf
    The position of MA-1 on the phylogenetic tree is established by
    the state of the 313 basal mutations separating hgs DE and R, where MA-1 has 143
    informative positions. Of these, 138 are in the derived and 5 in the ancestral state,
    placing MA-1 as a lineage basal to hg R. With only a few exceptions characterized
    below, all other informative positions in MA-1 are in the ancestral state, further
    supporting the phylogenetic positioning of MA-1 on the tree.
    Among the derived markers in the final dataset only a few (11) mutations were
    detected that are likely to be false positives based on the phylogenetic analysis, where
    it is assumed that recurrent mutation is less likely than a sequencing error. One
    position among the 35 private to MA-1 is characteristic of a distant hg – namely
    C3c14. Based on current data, 10 additional phylogenetically non-concordant
    positions in MA-1 were found – 1 position for hgs E, G, Q, R1b, R1 each, 2 defining
    positions for hg I and 3 private mutations for R1b individuals (shown in red on Figure
    SI 5a). Additionally, among the mutations originally excluded (the reference-private
    mutations), two positions were found where MA-1 is in derived state.



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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    What do you mean assumptions?, there is always assumptions, that is how we have moved on in the last 10, 20, 30 years ...with assumptions. Its now the current format and will remain the format until the geneticists decide to change it............since its accepted by all geneticts, then we live with it.
    see this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragro...-vanOven2014-4

    vanOven runs all the mtdna and all the ydna for all the genetic papers, they follow this paper , until a point in time that it is proven wrong.

    On Mal'ta boy, he is R*..........he has no other subclades and never will be found any other subclades within him. I do not know why people even mention him.
    * = no more subclades........end of the line
    someone asked to name him R0, but was denied because it was found he had no other markers
    It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy was an early form of Y haplotype R, since that's what the tests show. It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy died without leaving any direct descendants, since his skeleton shows that he died before reaching adolescence. It is an assumption that a child wasn't wandering around Siberia hunting mammoths on his own, but it's a fairly reasonable assumption. And, given how small the Eurasian population was 24000 years ago, and given that R hadn't yet developed into subclades at that point, it's quite reasonable to assume that one of Mal'ta Boy's close relatives was the ancestor of the folk who became R1a and R1b thousands of years later. And that's why so many people mention Mal'ta Boy. As for the paper about R and southeast Asia that you think is conclusive, it seems to me to do a lot of mental gymnastics and unproven assumptions to get to where it gets to.

    Maybe you should do a bit of reading about how genetics actually works. I've been reading up on the subject, and it's quite fascinating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy was an early form of Y haplotype R, since that's what the tests show. It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy died without leaving any direct descendants, since his skeleton shows that he died before reaching adolescence. It is an assumption that a child wasn't wandering around Siberia hunting mammoths on his own, but it's a fairly reasonable assumption. And, given how small the Eurasian population was 24000 years ago, and given that R hadn't yet developed into subclades at that point, it's quite reasonable to assume that one of Mal'ta Boy's close relatives was the ancestor of the folk who became R1a and R1b thousands of years later. And that's why so many people mention Mal'ta Boy. As for the paper about R and southeast Asia that you think is conclusive, it seems to me to do a lot of mental gymnastics and unproven assumptions to get to where it gets to.

    Maybe you should do a bit of reading about how genetics actually works. I've been reading up on the subject, and it's quite fascinating.
    And there you have it, proving yet again that the one thing that is absolutely necessary for this as for any intellectual endeavor is the ability to think logically. It helps if you can see the forest instead of obsessing on the trees too. :)


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    It's strange we find R* in Siberia 24000 years ago, and F* in the Central Europe/Balkans 5000 years ago. Did all the population booms extinctions and evolutions between F and R, happen in Russia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    It's strange we find R* in Siberia 24000 years ago, and F* in the Central Europe/Balkans 5000 years ago. Did all the population booms extinctions and evolutions between F and R, happen in Russia?
    Neolithic European F* didn't extinct, they are in central Europe
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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