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Thread: Corded Ware Culture Signals Population Change in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    So, as per the paper, the third genetic wave to hit Europe has now been proven to have been manifested in Corded Ware Culture. I'm sure there will be lots of goodies in the paper. I can't wait to read it.
    Component ANE peaks among East Caucasians and Burusho people
    So possibly the people of Corded ware culture brought the Pre-Germanic substrate.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...rthern-Eurasia

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    Also in Poland before the Slavic language were spoken Germanic dialects.
    So the R1a is possibly Pre-Germanic in Europe.

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    More evidence of Corded Ware bringing population change in Northern Europe over at Anthropologie:

    http://puvodni.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/article.php?ID=1549

    An analysis by David on the topic over at Polishgenes Blog:

    Corded Ware people: more versatile and healthier than Neolithic farmers

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014...atile-and.html
    Last edited by T101; 24-09-14 at 11:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Corded Ware people: more versatile and healthier than Neolithic farmers
    Eventually they have turned in fully blown farmers themselves a thousand years later.
    This cultural turnover was mainly caused by climatic changes and collapse of Neolithic farming in this part of the world. Corded Ware nomads were more suited for the harsher conditions and filled the vacuum, so to speak.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Also in Poland before the Slavic language were spoken Germanic dialects.
    So the R1a is possibly Pre-Germanic in Europe.
    it's not sure - Corded could have been proto-satem language speakers, close to proto-slavo-baltic tribes -
    I see them becoming 'germanic' in N-W Europe after assimilation into a mix of others people where neolitihical descendants were very seldom, and new ones, rather Y-R1b-U106 and Y-I1 people were the bulk -
    the first proto-germanic (centum) element could have been some Y-R1b-U152 group (old northwestern I-Ean, akin to celtic, italic, ligurian, germanic) acculturating the others in the Saale area and then into Jutland and Scandia, with a consonnant drift due, perhaps, to Y-I1 population (not to the haplogroup!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it's not sure - Corded could have been proto-satem language speakers, close to proto-slavo-baltic tribes -
    I see them becoming 'germanic' in N-W Europe after assimilation into a mix of others people where neolitihical descendants were very seldom, and new ones, rather Y-R1b-U106 and Y-I1 people were the bulk -
    the first proto-germanic (centum) element could have been some Y-R1b-U152 group (old northwestern I-Ean, akin to celtic, italic, ligurian, germanic) acculturating the others in the Saale area and then into Jutland and Scandia, with a consonnant drift due, perhaps, to Y-I1 population (not to the haplogroup!)
    Slavic and Baltic language families, separated 3100-3400 years ago, this is 1000-1500 years less than the Corded Ware culture Era, while Slavic languages are 1400-1600 years old.
    Possibly Slavic languages came from Steppe region, together with Huns(Hunnic words Strava Med).
    The Suobeni/Suoveni (Sloveni?) were between Rha(Volga) river and southern Urals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Also in Poland before the Slavic language were spoken Germanic dialects.
    So the R1a is possibly Pre-Germanic in Europe.
    The Corded Ware folk arrived in Europe long before the German language evolved. We don't know what language Corded Ware people spoke, but it certainly wasn't Proto-German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    The Corded Ware folk arrived in Europe long before the German language evolved. We don't know what language Corded Ware people spoke, but it certainly wasn't Proto-German.
    My mistake, I wanted to say that R1a in Europe are Pre-Germanic people, people who were there before(pre=before) of those who brought Germanic languges, and those who gave substratum to Germanic languges

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    My mistake, I wanted to say that R1a in Europe are Pre-Germanic people, people who were there before(pre=before) of those who brought Germanic languges, and those who gave substratum to Germanic languges
    No, probably not. R1a seems to have first entered Europe about 5000 years ago, bringing ANE ancestry with them, so they're clearly related genetically to the Indo-Europeans who followed them, and although we don't know whether they spoke an IE language, some people seem to think they did. We can't say for sure they didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No, probably not. R1a seems to have first entered Europe about 5000 years ago, bringing ANE ancestry with them, so they're clearly related genetically to the Indo-Europeans who followed them, and although we don't know whether they spoke an IE language, some people seem to think they did. We can't say for sure they didn't.
    ANE clearly is peaking among Macro-Caucasians, like the Burusho and N.Caucasians

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    R1a possibly gave Macro-Caucasian substratum to Germanic,
    and after that, the R1a possibly gave Germanic adstratum to Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    ANE clearly is peaking among Macro-Caucasians, like the Burusho and N.Caucasians
    So? That does nothing to alter the fact that R1a Corded Ware folk were ANE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So? That does nothing to alter the fact that R1a Corded Ware folk were ANE.
    So the R1a Corded Ware folk were Macro-Caucasian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    R1a possibly gave Macro-Caucasian substratum to Germanic,
    and after that, the R1a possibly gave Germanic adstratum to Slavic.
    No, the pre-IE substratum in German would have come from Neolithic farmers who kept their language and culture in the forests of Germany long after the IE folk had triumphed elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    So the R1a Corded Ware folk were Macro-Caucasian
    Also Corded Ware ceramics(Pengtoushan culture) were found in Chinese Neolithic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No, the pre-IE substratum in German would have come from Neolithic farmers who kept their language and culture in the forests of Germany long after the IE folk had triumphed elsewhere.
    Germanic begin to spread in Iron age mostly together with hidden in Scandinavia Neolithic I1 haplogroup, so the substratum should be from Bronze age(R1a).
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0BC-1AD%29.png

    Red: Settlements before 750 BC
    Orange: New settlements by 500 BC
    Yellow: New settlements by 250 BC
    Green: New settlements by AD 1


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Also Corded Ware ceramics(Pengtoushan culture) were found in Chinese Neolithic
    So what? That just proves that R1a had a wide distribution in Asia even before Corded Ware and IE spread it to Europe. I'm sure any Neolithic Chinese R1a folk spoke a different language that Corded Ware or IE folk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    So the R1a Corded Ware folk were Macro-Caucasian
    No. Where ANE peaks in current populations only gives you information about current populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Germanic begin to spread in Iron age mostly together with hidden in Scandinavia Neolithic I1 haplogroup, so the substratum should be from Bronze age(R1a).
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0BC-1AD%29.png

    Red: Settlements before 750 BC
    Orange: New settlements by 500 BC
    Yellow: New settlements by 250 BC
    Green: New settlements by AD 1

    German may have spread from Germany or it may have spread from Scandinavia. In either case, that does not preclude the survival of pre-IE languages during the Bronze or Iron Age in that area. Pre-IE languages survived into the Iron Age in other parts of Europe, even though they didn't contribute as much to IE languages as the Neolithic substratum did in Germany or Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So what? That just proves that R1a had a wide distribution in Asia even before Corded Ware and IE spread it to Europe. I'm sure any Neolithic Chinese R1a folk spoke a different language that Corded Ware or IE folk.
    Chinese Neolithic came from southern part of Central Asia via Wakhan Corridor that is close to Burusho(Macro-Caucasian, Sino-Caucasian) people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Chinese Neolithic came from southern part of Central Asia via Wakhan Corridor that is close to Burusho(Macro-Caucasian, Sino-Caucasian) people.
    The Burusho are a modern people who are mainly R2a not R1a and don't appear to be native to the area where they now live, according to Wikipedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    R1a possibly gave Macro-Caucasian substratum to Germanic,
    and after that, the R1a possibly gave Germanic adstratum to Slavic.
    For example the Burusho people have a Suffix "sk"(Burusha-ski)

    This Suffix "sk" is also in Germanic languages
    Sven-ska(as substratum from Macro-Caucasian)

    And in Leto-Slavic languages
    Pol-ska(as adstratum from Germanic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    The Burusho are a modern people who are mainly R2a not R1a and don't appear to be native to the area where they now live, according to Wikipedia.
    No the R1a among Burusho is 25,8+2,1=27.9%
    And also Burusho people have the highest diversity of haplogroup P in the Region
    R1a_ 27.9%
    R1*_ 1%
    R2__ 14.4%
    R*__ 10,3%
    Q___ 2.1%
    P*__ 1%


    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201726a.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    For example the Burusho people have a Suffix "sk"(Burusha-ski)

    This Suffix "sk" is also in Germanic languages
    Sven-ska(as substratum from Macro-Caucasian)

    And in Leto-Slavic languages
    Pol-ska(as adstratum from Germanic)
    You just made a good case for sk being IE. A modern composite population like the Burusho may have acquired DNA, culture and/or language from a variety of sources but you really need to know your history before guessing about those sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Slavic and Baltic language families, separated 3100-3400 years ago, this is 1000-1500 years less than the Corded Ware culture Era, while Slavic languages are 1400-1600 years old.
    Possibly Slavic languages came from Steppe region, together with Huns(Hunnic words Strava Med).
    The Suobeni/Suoveni (Sloveni?) were between Rha(Volga) river and southern Urals.
    I'm not sure of what your answer want assert - cultures are n't born suddenly, they have had all of them some previous stage or stageS (if cultural admixtures or assimilations) -Corded began about the 3000/2900 BC, OK, but that don"t disrpove they could have been already an I-Ean language, and even a proto-satem one (not completely evolved satem)... some of their genetic traits seem link them to Baltic people, accroding to some surveys...that said, my proposition was a bet, nothing more, waiting for more reliable data

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